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Unmarried Ontario couple had no children and no house but man must still pay support, appeal court rules

Here is a more accurate headline: Man forced to pay support to woman with whom he had a 14 year relationship while paying most of her expenses and supporting her kids, so she could quit her job and spend much of the year traveling and vacationing with him.

This is one of the details we don't know. Well, it seems what you say is true, but if she freely chose to quit her job for that reason (and along the way got lots of money and her mortgage paid off) I'm inclined to think she got enough out of it during the relationship. If the law is that she should (by dint of the relationship being deemed to be co-habiting) be allowed to continue the standard of lifestyle that she enjoyed during the relationship, then I'm not sure that's reasonable, all things considered. As I understand it, that sort of thing normally requires having contributed in some sort of equivalent way (eg household work or raising children while the partner earned money). And on the face of it, that's not the case here. Though we don't know.
 
Here is a more accurate headline: Man forced to pay support to woman with whom he had a 14 year relationship while paying most of her expenses and supporting her kids, so she could quit her job and spend much of the year traveling and vacationing with him.

I'm not really understanding how this changes anything. Is it your opinion that this is a good thing? Why should the courts encourage this?
 
I must admit, I'm not entirely ruling out gold-digger.

One thing's for sure I think. True love has taken yet another hit below the waterline. :(
 
Here is a more accurate headline: Man forced to pay support to woman with whom he had a 14 year relationship while paying most of her expenses and supporting her kids, so she could quit her job and spend much of the year traveling and vacationing with him.

I'm not really understanding how this changes anything. Is it your opinion that this is a good thing? Why should the courts encourage this?

There are typical situations where one partner (traditionally the woman in a hetero relationship) quits work (sacrifices earnings) in order to contribute in a different, non-monetary way, and that this merits sharing of assets afterwards.

But as I said, it does not seem to be the case here, so far.
 
I must admit, I'm not entirely ruling out gold-digger.

One thing's for sure I think. True love has taken yet another hit below the waterline. :(

I mean, gold-digging is one thing. From my own perspective, if you ingratiate yourself enough with another person that they lavish you with money, and say, add you to their will, then more power to you. But why should the state be awarding these patently absurd alimony payments? That's something else entirely.

Also, haha, true love. How funny.

As to whether sexism is involved, I wouldn't be surprised. But to establish that, I suppose, you'd at least want to account for the number of men who try to get alimony and their relative earnings and how many are awarded alimony compared to women in similar situations.
 
It's interesting that she accepted his proposals (plural) of marriage, but didn't marry because of what he had in the proposed pre-nups, it seems.

I read she also dated his brother before she dated him. That may be entirely irrelevant though.
 
Here is a more accurate headline: Man forced to pay support to woman with whom he had a 14 year relationship while paying most of her expenses and supporting her kids, so she could quit her job and spend much of the year traveling and vacationing with him.

I'm not really understanding how this changes anything. Is it your opinion that this is a good thing? Why should the courts encourage this?

There are typical situations where one partner (traditionally the woman in a hetero relationship) quits work (sacrifices earnings) in order to contribute in a different, non-monetary way, and that this merits sharing of assets afterwards.

But as I said, it does not seem to be the case here, so far.

I don't see any reason why courts should encourage this. Don't be an idiot and quit your job for your spouse. And if you do, you have no one else to blame but yourself.

I understand "times were different". But we are talking about today, here and now.
 
prideandfall said:
alimony and support laws are not new things, not based on modern social norms - they're based on a reality that no longer exists. it's ironic that the men who most act like their only fervent wish is for females to go back to being breeding stock with no autonomy of their own also rail the hardest against these sorts of laws, which only exist because they were created during a time that women were breeding stock with no autonomy of their own.
Who do you think act like " their only fervent wish is for females to go back to being breeding stock with no autonomy of their own"?
 
But why should the state be awarding these patently absurd alimony payments? That's something else entirely.

Dunno. Doesn't make sense to me.

Also, haha, true love. How funny.

I bet they said it though. I Bet they said they loved each other. It's just sad, that's all.

As to whether sexism is involved, I wouldn't be surprised. But to establish that, I suppose, you'd at least want to account for the number of men who try to get alimony and their relative earnings and how many are awarded alimony compared to women in similar situations.

There surely could be some sort of decent analysis done, yes, where the variables are controlled for. I imagine the law as written is nowadays non-sexist. Whether women still enjoy an advantage as a result of actual decisions, I don't know, but I would not be surprised. I'm sorely hoping it's not the case but I'll soon find out because I'm in the early stages of divorcing a woman with more money than me as we speak. So I have a horse in this race.
 
I don't see any reason why courts should encourage this. Don't be an idiot and quit your job for your spouse. And if you do, you have no one else to blame but yourself.

I understand "times were different". But we are talking about today, here and now.

Exactly.
 
There are typical situations where one partner (traditionally the woman in a hetero relationship) quits work (sacrifices earnings) in order to contribute in a different, non-monetary way, and that this merits sharing of assets afterwards.

But as I said, it does not seem to be the case here, so far.

I don't see any reason why courts should encourage this. Don't be an idiot and quit your job for your spouse. And if you do, you have no one else to blame but yourself.

I understand "times were different". But we are talking about today, here and now.

In the OP case, the person did not agree to get married. However, if we're talking about marriage, the person who quit their job for their spouse may be taking into consideration that their spouse agreed to get married, and that is a contract which - barring specific stipulations to the contrary - includes a responsibility to pay for their support and/or split their assets gained during the marriage.

This, of course, depends on the jurisdiction, but my point is that while I don't like this laws, either, these are the laws, so one could also say 'if you do not want to pay for your ex-partner's life, do not agree to a contract where you would have to' (under some circumstances, e.g., they split and one has more money) - which is again not applicable to the matter at hand.
 
It's the same argument some people use to maintain there is one and only one proper interpretation of a sentence.

No, it's not. I'm not saying grammar ought not change nor would I try and prescribe what future language ought be (I'm not French, for fuck's sake).

There is an argument that if one partner relinquished a livelihood during the partnership that support is necessary until that partner can return to pre-partnership standard of living. There is also the argument that the partnership itself allowed the "supporting" partner to become more productive and earn more, so that some of those earnings should go to the other partner upon dissolution.

The second part, in this particular case, I see no evidence of.

For the first part, she's already at better than pre-partnership standard of living, since he paid off her mortgage. But it's not true that it's based on pre-partnership standard of living. In fact, that's a standard I've never heard of. If he had been dating a bankrupt and homeless woman, are you suggesting the court would find he owed her no alimony?
 
In the OP case, the person did not agree to get married. However, if we're talking about marriage, the person who quit their job for their spouse may be taking into consideration that their spouse agreed to get married, and that is a contract which - barring specific stipulations to the contrary - includes a responsibility to pay for their support and/or split their assets gained during the marriage.

This, of course, depends on the jurisdiction, but my point is that while I don't like this laws, either, these are the laws, so one could also say 'if you do not want to pay for your ex-partner's life, do not agree to a contract where you would have to' (under some circumstances, e.g., they split and one has more money) - which is again not applicable to the matter at hand.

I agree. What I think has happened, probably in a well-meant way for what were deemed good reasons, is that co-habiting relationships began to be treated like marriages (as if there was a 'contract'). In this case, it looks like even the definition of co-habiting has been unusually stretched.
 
I must admit, I'm not entirely ruling out gold-digger.

One thing's for sure I think. True love has taken yet another hit below the waterline. :(

Fourteen years is a very long con.

It would be just as accurate to suppose that he manipulated her into giving up her job, and created a dependency upon him (on behalf of her children) and manipulated her into believing that she was necessary to the wellbeing of his children. It is possible that he led her to believe that he would take care of her forever—or that she was unable to properly take care of herself. We don’t really know.
 
In the OP case, the person did not agree to get married. However, if we're talking about marriage, the person who quit their job for their spouse may be taking into consideration that their spouse agreed to get married, and that is a contract which - barring specific stipulations to the contrary - includes a responsibility to pay for their support and/or split their assets gained during the marriage.

This, of course, depends on the jurisdiction, but my point is that while I don't like this laws, either, these are the laws, so one could also say 'if you do not want to pay for your ex-partner's life, do not agree to a contract where you would have to' (under some circumstances, e.g., they split and one has more money) - which is again not applicable to the matter at hand.

I agree. What I think has happened, probably in a well-meant way for what were deemed good reasons, is that co-habiting relationships began to be treated like marriages (as if there was a 'contract'). In this case, it looks like even the definition of co-habiting has been unusually stretched.
What do you make of him introducing her using his family name?

To me, it says that they presented themselves as a married couple.
 
What do you make of him introducing her using his family name?

To me, it says that they presented themselves as a married couple.

Well, it seems he wanted her to be his wife. I'm not sure it makes much difference to how I feel about the financial payments. To me, the fairness part of that sort of thing comes in if the partner receiving the monies has been deemed to have earned them (usually in a non-monetary way, by being in a contributory or supporting role of some other sort) and that doesn't yet seem to be the case, as far as we know. It seems she was a net beneficiary the whole time, at least according to reports.
 
Right back at you. typical when you feel offended by comments you call the poster names and label.

You are being a hypocrite, your quoted statement quite clearly impugns the motives of the OP, implying that they only care because it is being done to a "white male". It's stunning, in fact, that you show no shame in acting aggrieved by being called names and being labelled.

You are missing the sarcasm in my post.
 
Fourteen years is a very long con.

It would be just as accurate to suppose that he manipulated her into giving up her job, and created a dependency upon him (on behalf of her children) and manipulated her into believing that she was necessary to the wellbeing of his children. It is possible that he led her to believe that he would take care of her forever—or that she was unable to properly take care of herself. We don’t really know.

Except that he proposed a number of times, but she pulled out, because of what he had in mind for the pre-nups, it seems. That does not seem to indicate a promise by him that he would support her forever.

14 years is not that long a con if you get thousands of dollars a month and your mortgage paid off and a lavish lifestyle. And why marry and sign a pre-nup? You might be better off if you don't. Which she maybe now is.
 
Under Ontario law, an unmarried couple are considered common-law spouses if they have cohabited — lived together in a conjugal relationship — continuously for at least three years.

Since this part seems wrong, even fraudulent, I don't see reason to credit the rest of it.
 
Even if they were cohabiting, unless they were actually married I do not see why she should be considered as a "wife" and entitled to any of his money. That is a very dangerous concept. It is one thing to sign a marriage licence, quite another to be subject to this robbery just because she slept at your house sometimes.

The laws need to be updated, perhaps; however, money is an essential of modern existence. If you enter into a living arrangement where you assume the role of paying living expenses for someone, especially if they put their career on hold at that time, then ending that support suddenly leads to substantial loss for one partner. In this case, especially without knowing more facts, it may be hard to be sympathetic. It's possible she could have chosen to keep working and it seems odd that the amount of support is so high.But the law isn't really drafted specific to their case.

A couple, never having married, lives together. They have a child together. After the child is born, one partner agrees that they will stay home with the child until the kid is old enough to start school. They put their career on hold for the time being while the other continues to work. The couple separates. The partner who put their career on hold has set their career back, lowering their earning potential or possibly encountering difficulties reentering the workforce. To some extent, the partner whose career was able to continue uninterrupted has a responsibility to ensure that separating doesn't result in hardship for their partner.

Or, perhaps, a couple moves across the country because one partner got an amazing job opportunity. After moving, the other partner isn't able to find work as easily, or encounters setbacks in terms of compensation/ hours etc. The couple splits. One partner made career sacrifices for the other's career, and they would be disproportionately affected by the separation, so some measure of spousal support may make sense.

In this case, there may not be a reason which is all that sympathetic. But if they agreed to a situation where she doesn't work and he supports her, that support can't just be withdrawn cold. I struggle with the actual amount awarded, but not with the fact that any amount was awarded. Her financial situation is one where he was providing. That was the understanding between them. There is no reason to believe he was coerced. In ending that relationship, something needs to be done to mitigate the harm of the loss of their arrangement. How much needs to be done depends on the specifics of their case.

It is quite extreme, but I have no faith in any Canadian courts to not be sexist. Wasn't it in Canada where a pair of serial killers were convicted in such a way that the man got life in prison but the woman basically got a slap on the wrist?

Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeach. Homolka was able to make a plea. They wanted to make sure Bernardo was convicted and her testimony helped make that happen. It was controversial at the time. That said, the deal could only work in one direction as Bernardo was the one who actually perpetrated the killings. I don't agree with the deal. Homolka's involvement in the murders was quite significant. But I do understand the desire of the police to secure the conviction in such a high profile case concerning the murders of three young women.

Because you never see courts giving ex-boyfriends over 6 million of their ex-girlfriends' money.

Almost no settlements make the news. There are cases where women pay support to their male spouses/ partners. Very few people have the sort of wealth where six million dollars in spousal support is even going to be on the table in the first place. The amount to be paid is determined by factors specific to the couple in question, and how much they earn is relevant.
 
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