Up the flagpole: An idea on dealing with H1-B visas

[Loren Pechtel]

Lets see if anyone salutes.


1) Remove the numbers on H1-B visas. All acceptable applications are approved.

2) Remove the rules on hunting for an American first.

3) The replacement rules:

A) All H1-B visa applications go on a government server for a minimum of 3 months before a visa is granted. The listing includes the desired skills, the pay rate and the anonymized resume of the prospective applicant. The listing must include where the prospective hire will actually be working, reasonable detail is required (say, the project they will be working on), simply a big company name is not enough.

B) Anyone with permission to work may apply for the job from that website. No black holes, the company is required to reply to all applications and that reply must include a reason to reject the application. (They can still use resume-reading software or the like but it must indicate the reason for rejection, no generic answers allowed. If the rejection is automated they are allowed to revise their application if they believe the automated system made a mistake.) After the 3 month clock is up the company must still deal with any pending applications before the visa is granted. An automated system that would reject the resume of the prospective hire is automatically deemed to be unfair.

C) If the H1-B is hired anyone unfairly rejected may bring suit, such a rejection carries statutory damages of 1 year's wages + costs.

D) If you find and apply for your own job on the system and a H1-B is hired you get a rebuttable presumption that the rejection was unfair and 10 years wages rather than 1.

E) No employment contract or severance offer can deprive you of your rights in this.

F) The nation should operate on one-party recording laws. You're free to record an interview without the interviewer knowing. (Useful for exposing the bogus interviews that are common.)


This makes a much simpler application process for companies that legitimately can't find Americans but makes it exceedingly dangerous for those who deliberately pass them over.

 

[barbos]

With regard to "B)". I don't think it will work. The reason for black holes is a requirement for public posting of all job offerings even when you already have a person you are going to hire. Replying is cheap, here is a one reply which will satisfy your requirement "Thank you for your resume but we have to reject your offer because we have a lot of people with better resumes than yours"
I actually had similar reply once, after interview (Yes I sucked at interview) but nevertheless.

Problem with H1-B is the simple fact that absolute majority of H1-B applicants come from shithole countries and are ready to work for much less until they get green card. There is no good solution to this problem. There are a lot of well educated people who have no options in their respective countries, US is simply the best country for some fields. One way (which I would selfishly support) would be automatic green or equivalent card for anyone with PhD, especially from US and accredited EU universities. I predict that this would shift discrimination to grad schools but it is still better than present system.

 

[barbos]

F) The nation should operate on one-party recording laws. You're free to record an interview without the interviewer knowing. (Useful for exposing the bogus interviews that are common.)

LOL to this, You want to see job offerings for "Human resources person with ability to fake interview"
Overall, your suggestions seem obvious and reactionary yet very convoluted. They no doubt will have a lot of unintended consequences. I mean the current discriminatory and unfair (to everybody including filthy foreigners) system was designed to fight the discrimination and unfairness on the first place.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

With regard to "B)". I don't think it will work. The reason for black holes is a requirement for public posting of all job offerings even when you already have a person you are going to hire. Replying is cheap, here is a one reply which will satisfy your requirement "Thank you for your resume but we have to reject your offer because we have a lot of people with better resumes than yours"
I actually had similar reply once, after interview (Yes I sucked at interview) but nevertheless.

But you can see the resume of the person they want to hire and compare them to yours. If they're lying they'll be exposed. The games they play can't stand the light of day.

Problem with H1-B is the simple fact that absolute majority of H1-B applicants come from shithole countries and are ready to work for much less until they get green card. There is no good solution to this problem. There are a lot of well educated people who have no options in their respective countries, US is simply the best country for some fields. One way (which I would selfishly support) would be automatic green or equivalent card for anyone with PhD, especially from US and accredited EU universities. I predict that this would shift discrimination to grad schools but it is still better than present system.

I understand why they come here.

 

[SimpleDon]

The main appeal of the H1B1 visa program to employers is the same as the appeal of all of the other existing or proposed guest worker programs, cheaper labor costs by workers contractually bound to the company for a fixed period, in two words, indentured servitude.

The only way to avoid this form of legalized slavery will also seriously reduce its appeal to employers, make hiring these workers more expensive than hiring native workers, say by requiring employers to pay reasonable daily expense payments for these temporary workers who presumably have to maintain a residence in their home countries, and guaranteeing that the temporary worker is paid a competitive wage by that most capitalistic of means, competition, by allowing the worker to change jobs to obtain a higher wage.

I suspect that the above changes to the visa program would eliminate a lot of the skills shortage that we supposedly have right now.

note for Loren, when I say "wages" it also includes salaries.

 

[barbos]

But you can see the resume of the person they want to hire and compare them to yours. If they're lying they'll be exposed. The games they play can't stand the light of day.

Comparing resumes are not as easy as you think. Besides list of previous position, most of it is just a bunch of lies too.

Problem with H1-B is the simple fact that absolute majority of H1-B applicants come from shithole countries and are ready to work for much less until they get green card. There is no good solution to this problem. There are a lot of well educated people who have no options in their respective countries, US is simply the best country for some fields. One way (which I would selfishly support) would be automatic green or equivalent card for anyone with PhD, especially from US and accredited EU universities. I predict that this would shift discrimination to grad schools but it is still better than present system.

I understand why they come here.

I don't think you understand. There is simply no jobs outside of developed countries they can apply to, just none.
Can you imagine being a physicist in some African (not South Africa) country?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The main appeal of the H1B1 visa program to employers is the same as the appeal of all of the other existing or proposed guest worker programs, cheaper labor costs by workers contractually bound to the company for a fixed period, in two words, indentured servitude.

The only way to avoid this form of legalized slavery will also seriously reduce its appeal to employers, make hiring these workers more expensive than hiring native workers, say by requiring employers to pay reasonable daily expense payments for these temporary workers who presumably have to maintain a residence in their home countries, and guaranteeing that the temporary worker is paid a competitive wage by that most capitalistic of means, competition, by allowing the worker to change jobs to obtain a higher wage.

I suspect that the above changes to the visa program would eliminate a lot of the skills shortage that we supposedly have right now.

note for Loren, when I say "wages" it also includes salaries.

I don't think we have much of a skills shortage anyway. What we have is companies who don't want to pay market rate for the skills.

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Comparing resumes are not as easy as you think. Besides list of previous position, most of it is just a bunch of lies too.

Problem with H1-B is the simple fact that absolute majority of H1-B applicants come from shithole countries and are ready to work for much less until they get green card. There is no good solution to this problem. There are a lot of well educated people who have no options in their respective countries, US is simply the best country for some fields. One way (which I would selfishly support) would be automatic green or equivalent card for anyone with PhD, especially from US and accredited EU universities. I predict that this would shift discrimination to grad schools but it is still better than present system.

I understand why they come here.

I don't think you understand. There is simply no jobs outside of developed countries they can apply to, just none.
Can you imagine being a physicist in some African (not South Africa) country?

You're not rebutting me here.

 

[Bomb#20]

Not really grokking why keeping smart people out of America is in the national interest.

 

[barbos]

You're not rebutting me here.

There is nothing to refute. You are suggesting another method for lawyers to extort money from companies which will most certainly backfire in some unexpected fashion.

 

[RVonse]

There is no reason to even allow H-1B visas at all. If a company can not find someone with the skill set they need, then they are free to train the worker at their own expense.

This is what happened when I worked at Chrysler years ago and started on the line. They needed skilled trades workers with a specific skill set to repair and program robots. Anyone was allowed to take their tests and those with the correct aptitude were put in an Apprenticeship program all at Chrysler's expense. It took a few years to become a journeyman at this electrician's trade, but when that happened I had a real job with real wages. Consequently there was very minimal turnover and as the technology inevitably changed, the company simply sent us to whatever updated robot or PLC school we needed.

I realize this kind of employer/employee relationship is out of style today, but the fact of matter is that it worked very well. At probably not that greater cost to the company with a profound difference to the US as a whole.

 

[Underseer]

Loren, aren't you a libertarian?

Why should there be H1-B's at all? As a libertarian, should you promote the rights and freedoms of corporations to hire whomever they want for however much money they feel like paying? Why would you as a libertarian want Big Government to place any restrictions at all on who the aristocracy can and can't hire? Wouldn't that make us all less free? Doesn't that mean you are now a Big Government communist who hates our freedom?

 

[barbos]

There is no reason to even allow H-1B visas at all. If a company can not find someone with the skill set they need, then they are free to train the worker at their own expense.

This is what happened when I worked at Chrysler years ago and started on the line. They needed skilled trades workers with a specific skill set to repair and program robots. Anyone was allowed to take their tests and those with the correct aptitude were put in an Apprenticeship program all at Chrysler's expense. It took a few years to become a journeyman at this electrician's trade, but when that happened I had a real job with real wages. Consequently there was very minimal turnover and as the technology inevitably changed, the company simply sent us to whatever updated robot or PLC school we needed.

I realize this kind of employer/employee relationship is out of style today, but the fact of matter is that it worked very well. At probably not that greater cost to the company with a profound difference to the US as a whole.

It works in a literal way you described but in practice, H1-B is about cheap IT monkeys from India/China. You can't just take random 20-30 years old person and train it to be IT monkey. Of course what Loren forgets is that cheapness is not the whole story here. During Internet bubble at least there was actually real shortage of IT people. This shortage resulted in lowering standards and increased salaries for IT people and after bubble burst all these DeVry educated IT "specialists" became unemployed and unhappy about it.
Having said that, US has well above average market share in IT field and startups in general, that means foreign nationals working in US is pretty much unavoidable.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Loren, aren't you a libertarian?

Why should there be H1-B's at all? As a libertarian, should you promote the rights and freedoms of corporations to hire whomever they want for however much money they feel like paying? Why would you as a libertarian want Big Government to place any restrictions at all on who the aristocracy can and can't hire? Wouldn't that make us all less free? Doesn't that mean you are now a Big Government communist who hates our freedom?

Note that I describe myself as moderate libertarian. No pure system works!

In a world with rough economic equality there would be no need for H1-B visas. Unfortunately, in today's world that doesn't apply--letting in anyone who wants to come would end up dragging us down to their level rather than elevating them.

- - - Updated - - -

There is no reason to even allow H-1B visas at all. If a company can not find someone with the skill set they need, then they are free to train the worker at their own expense.

This is what happened when I worked at Chrysler years ago and started on the line. They needed skilled trades workers with a specific skill set to repair and program robots. Anyone was allowed to take their tests and those with the correct aptitude were put in an Apprenticeship program all at Chrysler's expense. It took a few years to become a journeyman at this electrician's trade, but when that happened I had a real job with real wages. Consequently there was very minimal turnover and as the technology inevitably changed, the company simply sent us to whatever updated robot or PLC school we needed.

I realize this kind of employer/employee relationship is out of style today, but the fact of matter is that it worked very well. At probably not that greater cost to the company with a profound difference to the US as a whole.

It works in a literal way you described but in practice, H1-B is about cheap IT monkeys from India/China. You can't just take random 20-30 years old person and train it to be IT monkey. Of course what Loren forgets is that cheapness is not the whole story here. During Internet bubble at least there was actually real shortage of IT people. This shortage resulted in lowering standards and increased salaries for IT people and after bubble burst all these DeVry educated IT "specialists" became unemployed and unhappy about it.
Having said that, US has well above average market share in IT field and startups in general, that means foreign nationals working in US is pretty much unavoidable.

Yeah, the reason we need them at all is things like the internet bubble. It provides a safety valve to damp excessive swings, but under normal conditions there should be few such visas.

 

[barbos]

Yeah, the reason we need them at all is things like the internet bubble. It provides a safety valve to damp excessive swings, but under normal conditions there should be few such visas.

US can not have "normal" conditions without foreign workers in IT and science.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yeah, the reason we need them at all is things like the internet bubble. It provides a safety valve to damp excessive swings, but under normal conditions there should be few such visas.

US can not have "normal" conditions without foreign workers in IT and science.

We would have to pay the IT and science people more but the jobs would get done.

 

[barbos]

US can not have "normal" conditions without foreign workers in IT and science.

We would have to pay the IT and science people more but the jobs would get done.

There are whole labs filled with Chinese, not a single american.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We would have to pay the IT and science people more but the jobs would get done.

There are whole labs filled with Chinese, not a single american.

Because the qualified Americans have been put out to pasture.

Besides, note that my system doesn't prevent the issuing of H1-Bs, it just makes cheating very dangerous. Post the job, don't get any decent applicants and you're free to hire the H1-B.

 

[barbos]

There are whole labs filled with Chinese, not a single american.

Because the qualified Americans have been put out to pasture.

No, these are PhD students filling the lab, there is no discrimination at this stage yet.
They are paid the same as american PhD students.

Besides, note that my system doesn't prevent the issuing of H1-Bs, it just makes cheating very dangerous. Post the job, don't get any decent applicants and you're free to hire the H1-B.

Your system involves lawyers and lawsuits. it's not gonna work.
As I said applications means nothing. There is no objective way to judge a person based on the text of the application alone.
In fact we have been over this when we discussed "discrimination" of women. Sex, ethnicity and other variables are always used in evaluation.

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

Why should companies pay higher than necessary?

I don't think we have much of a skills shortage anyway. What we have is companies who don't want to pay market rate for the skills.

Come off it!

The market rate is whatever wage level/price the buyer and seller can agree on.

And all consumers are made better off by letting the companies get the lower-cost labor, because this enables them to better serve consumers at lower cost and compete better. The function of business is to

serve consumers, not provide job slots to crybabies!

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

Nevermind the higher cost -- the companies can afford it, the dirty greedy capitalist pigs!

There is no reason to even allow H-1B visas at all. If a company can not find someone with the skill set they need, then they are free to train the worker at their own expense.

And why should they have to do that? because they're supposed to babysit the native-born rabble? What's wrong with letting consumers benefit from the lower-cost production? Why should consumers have to pay higher prices in order to subsidize over-paid red-blooded Americans?

It took a few years to become a journeyman at this electrician's trade, but when that happened I had a real job with real wages.

"real" automatically means "higher" and thus higher costs to the company, which is passed on to consumers who then are subsidizing your income.

Why is it good for citizens to have to pay you a higher-than-necessary income, lowering their standard of living, when the same job could be performed at lower cost?

Why does a "real wage" have to be a wage which makes only one person better off and everyone else in society worse off? Why can't the native-born crybabies be told they have to compete instead of leech off consumers?

Consequently there was very minimal turnover . . .

If that's really significant, the company is smart enough to know it and takes that into consideration in its hiring decisions, and it won't import foreigners when it means more turnover that is costly. So this is no reason to limit the hiring of foreigners because companies already have the incentive to limit this when it leads to excess turnover.

. . . and as the technology inevitably changed, the company simply sent us to whatever updated robot or PLC school we needed.

Or it simply laid off the obsolete workers, as also happens. Probably it's easier for the company to relocate a foreign worker who's displaced, because these are usually less demanding and less likely to throw a tantrum than the native-born workers who demand more entitlements and might threaten a lawsuit and have to be placed into makework jobs to pacify them. (Maybe a slight exaggeration, but not totally, and that's the direction we're going.)

I realize this kind of employer/employee relationship is out of style today, but the fact of matter is that it worked very well.

Yes, for the uncompetitive crybabies who got paid higher, but not for consumers who had to pay higher prices to cover the higher production cost.

At probably not that greater cost to the company . . .

Sure, let the company be the babysitter -- they can afford the extra babysitting cost -- we need them to provide these job slots in order to get the rabble off the streets, and the consumers can pay for it anyway -- ALL consumers must assume this higher cost as their civic duty to subsidize the babysitting slots which we need for the ever-increasing population of rabble. Who knows what mischief these bastards would be doing out there if we didn't put them into these "job" slots? Let's force companies to provide MORE of these slots -- it's their patriotic duty, isn't it?

. . . with a profound difference to the US as a whole.

Yes, by cultivating more entitlement-minded crybabies who demand to be paid higher than they're worth (because they're such precious native-born red-blooded Americans!) at the expense of consumers -- yes, having more and more of these whining crybabies and fewer who are competitive is a profound difference -- with resulting lower overall standard of living into the future.