Utah nurse arrested for following Constitution

[fromderinside]

The actual issue here is why the supposedly trained officer of the law felt empowered to arrest a person for being lawful when he had nothing but a standing instruction to get the blood from a superior. Is this a thing in law enforcement?

 

[Keith&Co.]

The actual issue here is why the supposedly trained officer of the law felt empowered to arrest a person for being lawful when he had nothing but a standing instruction to get the blood from a superior. Is this a thing in law enforcement?

Obstructing an officer/ Obstructing justice, works as a blank check much like 'for national security' does in some other circles.

 

[whichphilosophy]

The actual issue here is why the supposedly trained officer of the law felt empowered to arrest a person for being lawful when he had nothing but a standing instruction to get the blood from a superior. Is this a thing in law enforcement?

Technically he was trying to enforce something which is illegal.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'd also have liked the security personnel, who had jurisdiction within the hospital, to have arrested the police assaulting the nurse.

No--the security people were expected to obey law enforcement. Not intervening was right.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I'd also have liked the security personnel, who had jurisdiction within the hospital, to have arrested the police assaulting the nurse.

No--the security people were expected to obey law enforcement. Not intervening was right.

But, they're supposed to protect nurses from fuckwits and drunks. It still counts if they're drunk with power...

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I'd also have liked the security personnel, who had jurisdiction within the hospital, to have arrested the police assaulting the nurse.

No--the security people were expected to obey law enforcement. Not intervening was right.

You don't have to follow illegal orders. In fact, you shouldn't.

Further, they could have kicked them off the property for causing a disturbance or if told to by the hospital administration. It's just like if they come to your house and ask to be let in to get evidence without a warrant or arresting anyone with cause. You can tell them to get off your property until they come back with a warrant.

 

[OLDMAN]

The police can charge you with anything they want, as long as it is on the books. Wither or not they will win the case is not known till later. Usually the charges are dropped at some point by the DA. But police drunk with power or pissed off can still ruin your day.

 

[Valjean]

The actual issue here is why the supposedly trained officer of the law felt empowered to arrest a person for being lawful when he had nothing but a standing instruction to get the blood from a superior. Is this a thing in law enforcement?

It's a Milgram/Zimbardoesque thing.

 

[Valjean]

I'd also have liked the security personnel, who had jurisdiction within the hospital, to have arrested the police assaulting the nurse.

No--the security people were expected to obey law enforcement. Not intervening was right.

No, the police were supposed to obey the law. People violating the law are generally considered subject to arrest.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No--the security people were expected to obey law enforcement. Not intervening was right.

You don't have to follow illegal orders. In fact, you shouldn't.

Further, they could have kicked them off the property for causing a disturbance or if told to by the hospital administration. It's just like if they come to your house and ask to be let in to get evidence without a warrant or arresting anyone with cause. You can tell them to get off your property until they come back with a warrant.

But they're not expected to know more about the law than the cops.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

You don't have to follow illegal orders. In fact, you shouldn't.

Further, they could have kicked them off the property for causing a disturbance or if told to by the hospital administration. It's just like if they come to your house and ask to be let in to get evidence without a warrant or arresting anyone with cause. You can tell them to get off your property until they come back with a warrant.

But they're not expected to know more about the law than the cops.

No, that's not true at all. You have to know a lot about patient rights to work in a hospital including HIPAA and in this case you need to know about blood draw consent and policies with police requesting such.

...and now to watch your head explode...

Loren, it turns out the patient was actually a cop. His full-time job was driving a truck but he was a reserve officer in Rigby. Here is Rigby Police Department on it:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1283530118423671&id=981095758667110

So, why are you protecting this cop exactly, when the police department he is working for says he was wrong, when another police department also says he was wrong, when the Constitution says he was wrong? Are you that much of an authoritarian that you can't accept police are wrong even when the police they work for say they were wrong in treating other police wrongly?

 

[RavenSky]

You don't have to follow illegal orders. In fact, you shouldn't.

Further, they could have kicked them off the property for causing a disturbance or if told to by the hospital administration. It's just like if they come to your house and ask to be let in to get evidence without a warrant or arresting anyone with cause. You can tell them to get off your property until they come back with a warrant.

But they're not expected to know more about the law than the cops.

And yet, they do

 

[Keith&Co.]

But they're not expected to know more about the law than the cops.

THE COP knew he didn't have probable cause to ask for the blood. When challenged, he should have backed down. MAYBE if he'd been challenged by hospital security, he might have.
I'm sure they've all been told since the incident that they WILL take action next time, to support the policies that protect the hospital and those in their care. But mostly to protect the hospital.

It's kind of funny, the cops wanted the blood in order to minimize a lawsuit, but if the hospital had given it up, THEY would have faced a lawsuit. The only thing funnier would be if the police have a 'no high speed pursuit' policy, exactly to avoid causing this sort of thing.

 

[fromderinside]

Oh. They do? Now that's funny.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But they're not expected to know more about the law than the cops.

No, that's not true at all. You have to know a lot about patient rights to work in a hospital including HIPAA and in this case you need to know about blood draw consent and policies with police requesting such.

...and now to watch your head explode...

Loren, it turns out the patient was actually a cop. His full-time job was driving a truck but he was a reserve officer in Rigby. Here is Rigby Police Department on it:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1283530118423671&id=981095758667110

So, why are you protecting this cop exactly, when the police department he is working for says he was wrong, when another police department also says he was wrong, when the Constitution says he was wrong? Are you that much of an authoritarian that you can't accept police are wrong even when the police they work for say they were wrong in treating other police wrongly?

It appears you are responding to your impression of me rather than reality.

I'm not supporting the cops in this and I don't think they were trying to protect the guy in the first place. Rather, they were trying to limit the damage from their wrongful chase.

 

[RavenSky]

...it turns out the patient was actually a cop. His full-time job was driving a truck but he was a reserve officer in Rigby. Here is Rigby Police Department on it:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1283530118423671&id=981095758667110

Oh boy, Jeff Payne is in for a world of hurt now

First he tries his bully act on a nurse, a profession that is well respected (deservedly so) by the general public

Second, the nurse is a blonde-haired, blue-eyed white woman. We won't have racists crawling out of the woodwork to make fun of her name, or dig up dirt (real or imagined) to defame her.

And now, it turns out that the innocent victim Payne wanted to draw blood from is a cop, too?

I predict Jeff Payne will be fired.

As an aside, some articles have the Salt Lake City police department splitting hairs by insisting Nurse Alex Wubbles was never arrested. Jeff Payne grabbed her and said "You are under arrest" before cuffing her. If that is not "under arrest", what is?

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

It looks like that hospital has clamped down on cops. Cop now have to sign in at the front desk. They are no longer allowed to interact with patients or nurses or doctors. They have to go through administrators officially. They will have to follow the law, and won't be allowed to wander in that hospital at will. Its nice to see the hospital read them the riot act.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

As an aside, some articles have the Salt Lake City police department splitting hairs by insisting Nurse Alex Wubbles was never arrested. Jeff Payne grabbed her and said "You are under arrest" before cuffing her. If that is not "under arrest", what is?

If it wasn't a true arrest, then it sounds like a false arrest.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

It looks like that hospital has clamped down on cops. Cop now have to sign in at the front desk. They are no longer allowed to interact with patients or nurses or doctors. They have to go through administrators officially. They will have to follow the law, and won't be allowed to wander in that hospital at will. Its nice to see the hospital read them the riot act.

Good update.

 

[skepticalbip]

...............
As an aside, some articles have the Salt Lake City police department splitting hairs by insisting Nurse Alex Wubbles was never arrested. Jeff Payne grabbed her and said "You are under arrest" before cuffing her. If that is not "under arrest", what is?

It was much worse than a normal arrest. It was an arrest without charges.

The article said that the order to arrest her came from Payne's lieutenant so Payne would be guilty of following an illegal order so should, at a minimum, be fired but better be charged and tried for abuse of power. His lieutenant should also be charged and tried for issuing an illegal order. And if he was simply following orders from his superior, up to the chief of police or even Mayor, all those in the chain should be charged and tried. If those responsible for the order are not held accountable then they have no reason to not do it (or something worse) again in the future.