Vaccine Passports

[Elixir]

A sticky wicket to be sure.
The international community has all but abandoned many vaccine certifications that have long been required for travel to various parts, due the ease with which they can be falsified. There's little reason to think proof of COVID vaccination would be any different.

Surely countries and private businesses have an interest in mitigating the spread of the disease, and for reassuring visitors/patrons of their safety.
I do find it really annoying how today's so-called conservatives revel in their new image as trigger happy, COVID-ridden, disease spreading, lead-flinging half wits responding like puppets to every string pulled by paranoia-vending politicians. But I can't even begin to think of any way that a movie goer, a sports fan, a cruise customer - anyone contemplating an activity involving close proximity to lots of people for an extended period - can be credibly reassured of their safety by instituting vaccine passports. Short of instant testing for infection, that is. And even if such a miracle should come to pass, we already know that COVID can be spread before current tests can detect it.

Are even there any statutes that might enable prosecution of someone who fakes a "vaccine passport"? Reckless endangerment?
I just don't see any way to make it a viable mechanism for ensuring anyone's protection from COVID-19.

Thoughts?

 

[TomC]

With a bit of luck, enough people will get the vaccine to create herd immunity. As the threat fades, overall, the need for the passport will also fade. I sincerely hope that in the near future we won't need them for safely mingling in small-scale businesses, who aren't well equipped to detect fakes, and only need them for bigger deal events like hospital personell and international travel. Relatively small groups run by organizations large enough to access some sort of database that can securely authenticate protection.
Tom

 

[bilby]

A sticky wicket to be sure.
The international community has all but abandoned many vaccine certifications that have long been required for travel to various parts, due the ease with which they can be falsified.

No they haven't. They've been abandoned due to the successful containment and treatment of the diseases.

The only remaining disease on the WHO schedule is Yellow Fever, and even that disease only requires a vaccine passport for travel to or from a small number of countries.

There's little reason to think proof of COVID vaccination would be any different.

Any document or certification can be forged. We don't abandon passports, driver's licences, cash, professional certifications, company IDs, etc., etc., despite many of these being quite easy to falsify or forge, and all of them being possible to forge.

Your entire premise here is wrong.

Surely countries and private businesses have an interest in mitigating the spread of the disease, and for reassuring visitors/patrons of their safety.

They do. So they shall.

I do find it really annoying how today's so-called conservatives revel in their new image as trigger happy, COVID-ridden, disease spreading, lead-flinging half wits responding like puppets to every string pulled by paranoia-vending politicians. But I can't even begin to think of any way that a movie goer, a sports fan, a cruise customer - anyone contemplating an activity involving close proximity to lots of people for an extended period - can be credibly reassured of their safety by instituting vaccine passports. Short of instant testing for infection, that is. And even if such a miracle should come to pass, we already know that COVID can be spread before current tests can detect it.

Internal documents aren't really 'passports', but there's no reason why they should be expected to be less effective than any other form of ID or certification.

Are even there any statutes that might enable prosecution of someone who fakes a "vaccine passport"? Reckless endangerment?
I just don't see any way to make it a viable mechanism for ensuring anyone's protection from COVID-19.

There are plenty of such statutes in various jurisdictions worldwide. But no system is perfect, nor does this one need to be perfect in order to be beneficial.

 

[Elixir]

No they haven't. They've been abandoned due to the successful containment and treatment of the diseases.

The only remaining disease on the WHO schedule is Yellow Fever, and even that disease only requires a vaccine passport for travel to or from a small number of countries.

Any document or certification can be forged. We don't abandon passports, driver's licences, cash, professional certifications, company IDs, etc., etc., despite many of these being quite easy to falsify or forge, and all of them being possible to forge.

Your entire premise here is wrong.

Surely countries and private businesses have an interest in mitigating the spread of the disease, and for reassuring visitors/patrons of their safety.

They do. So they shall.

I do find it really annoying how today's so-called conservatives revel in their new image as trigger happy, COVID-ridden, disease spreading, lead-flinging half wits responding like puppets to every string pulled by paranoia-vending politicians. But I can't even begin to think of any way that a movie goer, a sports fan, a cruise customer - anyone contemplating an activity involving close proximity to lots of people for an extended period - can be credibly reassured of their safety by instituting vaccine passports. Short of instant testing for infection, that is. And even if such a miracle should come to pass, we already know that COVID can be spread before current tests can detect it.

Internal documents aren't really 'passports', but there's no reason why they should be expected to be less effective than any other form of ID or certification.

Are even there any statutes that might enable prosecution of someone who fakes a "vaccine passport"? Reckless endangerment?
I just don't see any way to make it a viable mechanism for ensuring anyone's protection from COVID-19.

There are plenty of such statutes in various jurisdictions worldwide. But no system is perfect, nor does this one need to be perfect in order to be beneficial.

Are you saying you’re in favor?
I’m still ambivalent, even conceding your points.
Some things are easier to fake than others.
Vaccination certs have (afaik) always been plain paper docs of the sort that anyone with a laser printer could fake. And I’m definitely not in favor of an international or national database for verifications.
Still a sticky wicket IMO.

 

[bilby]

No they haven't. They've been abandoned due to the successful containment and treatment of the diseases.

The only remaining disease on the WHO schedule is Yellow Fever, and even that disease only requires a vaccine passport for travel to or from a small number of countries.

Any document or certification can be forged. We don't abandon passports, driver's licences, cash, professional certifications, company IDs, etc., etc., despite many of these being quite easy to falsify or forge, and all of them being possible to forge.

Your entire premise here is wrong.

They do. So they shall.

Internal documents aren't really 'passports', but there's no reason why they should be expected to be less effective than any other form of ID or certification.

Are even there any statutes that might enable prosecution of someone who fakes a "vaccine passport"? Reckless endangerment?
I just don't see any way to make it a viable mechanism for ensuring anyone's protection from COVID-19.

There are plenty of such statutes in various jurisdictions worldwide. But no system is perfect, nor does this one need to be perfect in order to be beneficial.

Are you saying you’re in favor?
I’m still ambivalent, even conceding your points.
Some things are easier to fake than others.
Vaccination certs have (afaik) always been plain paper docs of the sort that anyone with a laser printer could fake. And I’m definitely not in favor of an international or national database for verifications.
Still a sticky wicket IMO.

I am not expressing my approval or disapproval, and I don't see why my opinion or yours matters in the slightest. Are you in favour of driver's licences? Do you imagine that your opinion on the subject will in any way influence the existing driver licencing systems around the world?

Vaccine 'passports' have been around for a long time. My opinion of them isn't being asked for; The World Health Assembly have been managing them without my input since 1948. If they add SARS-CoV-2 to the schedule, and include your nation, or mine, or any nation to which we wish to travel, on the list for that virus, then a Vaccine Passport will become mandatory for that international travel, just as it currently is for travel to nations listed by the WHA as requring Yellow Fever vaccination.

Anyone who thinks there's something new about them just hasn't been paying attention. Discussing something that already exists, as though it requires designing from scratch, is futile.

And any document could always be forged, even before the invention of the laser printer.

 

[Elixir]

Are you in favour of driver's licences?

Yes.

Do you imagine that your opinion on the subject will in any way influence the existing driver licencing systems around the world?

Irrelevant. For one thing, at least in the US, if I get stopped and show my drivers license to a cop, the first thing he'll do is "call it in" to make sure it's real, there are no warrants out for my arrest etc.. There is no option to call in about a vaccination card. The cards are not even standardized, so it would be hard for anyone to know if it's fake.

Vaccine 'passports' have been around for a long time. My opinion of them isn't being asked for; The World Health Assembly have been managing them without my input since 1948.

That's an interesting but again irrelevant bit of trivia.

If they add SARS-CoV-2 to the schedule, and include your nation, or mine, or any nation to which we wish to travel, on the list for that virus, then a Vaccine Passport will become mandatory for that international travel, just as it currently is for travel to nations listed by the WHA as requring Yellow Fever vaccination.

Which means that for international travel, a vaccine cert could have significant value, right? But it doesn't make me any more eager to attend a baseball game, much as I might like to.

And any document could always be forged, even before the invention of the laser printer.

I am well aware of that fact. Even currency can be and is faked. Just ask George Floyd. No, wait - don't do that...

It's a matter of degree of difficulty. If it was as hard as faking currency and required a lot of time and exotic equipment to credibly fake a vaccination cert I don't think a lot of anti-vaxers would be faking ones for a currently rampaging pandemic disease. But if you can do it in five minutes without leaving your home desk, I believe that there are literally millions of Americans who would do it without hesitation, and are deluded enough to think there's no harm in it.
Australians are very likely another kettle of fish.

 

[Angry Floof]

A sticky wicket only because the anti-vaxxers are to some degree normalizing their objections to, well, everything related to COVID.

We have for a long time been used to and agreeing to requiring vaccination records for school, military, some jobs, etc. Calling it a "passport" is stupid and I wish people would stop feeding anti-fax stupidity and just call it what it is: proof of vaccination against a contagious virus that kills and maims and creates a crushing burden on our hospitals and healthcare workers.

 

[bilby]

Yes.



Irrelevant. For one thing, at least in the US, if I get stopped and show my drivers license to a cop, the first thing he'll do is "call it in" to make sure it's real, there are no warrants out for my arrest etc.. There is no option to call in about a vaccination card. The cards are not even standardized, so it would be hard for anyone to know if it's fake.

Vaccine 'passports' have been around for a long time. My opinion of them isn't being asked for; The World Health Assembly have been managing them without my input since 1948.

That's an interesting but again irrelevant bit of trivia.

If they add SARS-CoV-2 to the schedule, and include your nation, or mine, or any nation to which we wish to travel, on the list for that virus, then a Vaccine Passport will become mandatory for that international travel, just as it currently is for travel to nations listed by the WHA as requring Yellow Fever vaccination.

Which means that for international travel, a vaccine cert could have significant value, right?

No. A vaccine cert is no more valid for international travel than a blockbuster video membership card. For international travel, you need a WHO 'Yellow Book'; aka 'Vaccine Passport', or to use its formal title 'International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis'

But it doesn't make me any more eager to attend a baseball game, much as I might like to.

And any document could always be forged, even before the invention of the laser printer.

I am well aware of that fact. Even currency can be and is faked. Just ask George Floyd. No, wait - don't do that...

It's a matter of degree of difficulty. If it was as hard as faking currency and required a lot of time and exotic equipment to credibly fake a vaccination cert I don't think a lot of anti-vaxers would be faking ones for a currently rampaging pandemic disease. But if you can do it in five minutes without leaving your home desk, I believe that there are literally millions of Americans who would do it without hesitation, and are deluded enough to think there's no harm in it.
Australians are very likely another kettle of fish.

We appear to be talking at cross-purposes. A passport is a document for international travel. You don't need a passport to attend a baseball match, unless you need to cross an international border to get there.

 

[TomC]

We appear to be talking at cross-purposes. A passport is a document for international travel. You don't need a passport to attend a baseball match, unless you need to cross an international border to get there.

You are talking at cross purposes because your use of the word "passport" is obsolete.
Sorry, but that's how it is.

It's now a document for many purposes, far more than international travel.

Tom

 

[bilby]

We appear to be talking at cross-purposes. A passport is a document for international travel. You don't need a passport to attend a baseball match, unless you need to cross an international border to get there.

You are talking at cross purposes because your use of the word "passport" is obsolete.
Sorry, but that's how it is.

It's now a document for many purposes, far more than international travel.

Tom

That might be true in the USA; But it's not true here.

Forgive me if I don't take advice on either the English language, or on international travel, from America - the least qualified nation in the OECD to give advice on either subject.

 

[TomC]

We appear to be talking at cross-purposes. A passport is a document for international travel. You don't need a passport to attend a baseball match, unless you need to cross an international border to get there.

You are talking at cross purposes because your use of the word "passport" is obsolete.
Sorry, but that's how it is.

It's now a document for many purposes, far more than international travel.

Tom

That might be true in the USA; But it's not true here.

Forgive me if I don't take advice on either the English language, or on international travel, from America - the least qualified nation in the OECD to give advice on either subject.

I don't know where "here" is. But where I live you need documents for a fair number of things, usually about your age. You can't buy alcoholic beverages without a passport into the 21+ age bracket.
Now, you can't even vote without a government issued picture ID.

We didn't used to call them passports, and given the history of the word it's probably not the best word. But lots of us use "passport" to mean "a document that gives you privileges you don't get without the document".
Tom

 

[bilby]

That might be true in the USA; But it's not true here.

Forgive me if I don't take advice on either the English language, or on international travel, from America - the least qualified nation in the OECD to give advice on either subject.

I don't know where "here" is. But where I live you need documents for a fair number of things, usually about your age. You can't buy alcoholic beverages without a passport into the 21+ age bracket.
Now, you can't even vote without a government issued picture ID.

We didn't used to call them passports, and given the history of the word it's probably not the best word. But lots of us use "passport" to mean "a document that gives you privileges you don't get without the document".
Tom

Not only didn't you used to call those "passports", but I will wager that you still don't.

 

[TomC]

That might be true in the USA; But it's not true here.

Forgive me if I don't take advice on either the English language, or on international travel, from America - the least qualified nation in the OECD to give advice on either subject.

I don't know where "here" is. But where I live you need documents for a fair number of things, usually about your age. You can't buy alcoholic beverages without a passport into the 21+ age bracket.
Now, you can't even vote without a government issued picture ID.

We didn't used to call them passports, and given the history of the word it's probably not the best word. But lots of us use "passport" to mean "a document that gives you privileges you don't get without the document".
Tom

Not only didn't you used to call those "passports", but I will wager that you still don't.

Like I said, we didn't used to do so. But the language is changing, as languages do.

I looked you up on your profile page.

You're from that place that can't distinguish between a child's fashion doll and a grilling surface!

Don't tell me how to speak American.
Tom

 

[crazyfingers]

Not only didn't you used to call those "passports", but I will wager that you still don't.

Like I said, we didn't used to do so. But the language is changing, as languages do.

I looked you up on your profile page.

You're from that place that can't distinguish between a child's fashion doll and a grilling surface!

Don't tell me how to speak American.
Tom

What????

 

[TomC]

Not only didn't you used to call those "passports", but I will wager that you still don't.

Like I said, we didn't used to do so. But the language is changing, as languages do.

I looked you up on your profile page.

You're from that place that can't distinguish between a child's fashion doll and a grilling surface!

Don't tell me how to speak American.
Tom

What????

Barby.
Tom

 

[crazyfingers]

What????

Barby.
Tom

What??? What about the anorexic false female body image would Australians not be familiar with vs a grilling surface???

 

[TomC]

What????

Barby.
Tom

What??? What about the anorexic false female body image would Australians not be familiar with vs a grilling surface???

Ask [MENTION=37]bilby[/MENTION];

He's the expert on colonial colloquialism. He did a good job of correcting me.

Sorta

Tom

 

[Rhea]

What????

Barby.
Tom

What??? What about the anorexic false female body image would Australians not be familiar with vs a grilling surface???

I think it is a joke about throwing some shrimp on the barbie...

 

[crazyfingers]

What??? What about the anorexic false female body image would Australians not be familiar with vs a grilling surface???

I think it is a joke about throwing some shrimp on the barbie...

Ok, I'll say it again. What??

I'm totally lost here. Do I not watch enough TV or something?

 

[untermensche]

Things got ugly quick there.

In Florida the Governor made it illegal to issue a vaccine passport.