Veterans with bad attitudes

[Treedbear]

Especially when done by those who might be looked on as a type of warrior, such as football players. So if anything Colin Kaepernick was demonstrating a profound dedication to America's mission to forge a more perfect union by confronting racial injustices.

Yeah, that's a steaming load of bullshit. When Kaep did that he was also wearing some "cops are pigs" socks.

Really? What I read was that he only wore them during practice.

Colin Kaepernick's socks depicted police as pigs
By: Alex HiderPosted at 7:06 PM, Sep 01, 2016 and last updated 8:18 PM, Sep 01, 2016
...
Reports indicate that Kaepernick has worn the socks throughout training camp. CBS Sports claims that he’s been spotted sporting the socks as early as Aug. 10.
...
Kaepernick responded to the criticisms of his footwear with in an Instagram post on Thursday afternoon.

“I wore those socks, in the past, because the rogue cops that are allowed to hold positions in police departments, not only put the community in danger, but also put the cops that have the right intentions in danger by creating an environment of tension and mistrust. I have two uncles and friends who are police officers and work to protect and serve ALL people. So before these socks, which were worn before I took my public stance, are used to distract from the real issues, I wanted to address this immediately.”
...

He later objected to Nike bringing out a sneaker with a US flag because he hates America.

No, the US flag has 50 stars on it, not 13. I haven't found anywhere he implies that he hates America. You're projecting.
Nike pulls sneakers with ‘Betsy Ross’ American flag after Colin Kaepernick complains

Kaep is now publishing a series of essays demanding police and prisons be abolished.
Kaepernick: Abolish police, prisons

Kaepernick: Abolish police, prisons
By Joseph Choi, 10/11/20

... Kaepernick wrote.

"To be clear, the abolition of these institutions is not the absence of accountability but rather the establishment of transformative and restorative processes that are not rooted in punitive practices," he writes. "By abolishing policing and prisons, not only can we eliminate white supremacist establishments, but we can create space for budgets to be reinvested directly into communities to address mental health needs, homelessness and houselessness, access to education, and job creation as well as community-based methods of accountability."
...
Over the next month, my hope is that you, the reader, will have confronted the white supremacist underpinnings of policing and prisons and the state-sanctioned oppression, destruction, and execution of Black and Indigenous people and people of color. You will understand the ways that reform has further legitimized policing and prisons into society. You will learn about the ways that abolishing policing and prisons can create a society able to invest in the well-being of the people. My sincere hope is that you will be forced to make a moral choice by the time you finish these essays: Will you continue to be actively complicit in the perpetuation of these systems, or will you take action to dismantle them for the benefit of a just future? This moment in history will not be forgotten nor will the actions you, I, and others take.

That one seems to be very intelligently presented and certainly not evidence of hate for America. He sees one path to a solution. You and many others obviously don't agree, so you attempt to attack his patriotism without evidence.

The series of rambling essays about police abolition can be found here. Kaep himself wrote one of them. Another author is Communist Angela Davis, who provided weapons for the 1971 Marin County Courthouse Massacre, but was not held responsible for it.
Other authors are the mother of a guy who stabbed another man before being shot by police, a BLM terrorist who murdered a police officer and is serving a life sentence for it and assorted leftist extremists.

I haven't read the other essays as yet, but I thank you for pointing them out so I can better appreciate their positions. This is the kind of discussion the world needs and especially in America if we really expect change to happen for the better.

Patriots players back Colin Kaepernick before long-awaited workout
By ANDREW CALLAHAN | acallahan@bostonherald.com |
PUBLISHED: November 13, 2019 at 6:45 p.m. | UPDATED: November 13, 2019 at 8:42 p.m.
...
During his two and a half years away, Kaepernick founded Know Your Rights, a campaign to promote “higher education, self-empowerment, and instruction to properly interact with law enforcement in various scenarios.” The non-profit organization has held several workshops in major cities, from Oakland to New York and Amsterdam. In 2018, Kaepernick also completed his Million Dollar Pledge, a promise to donate $1 million of his own money to 37 organizations supporting social justice and human rights causes.

That same year, Amnesty International bestowed its highest honor, the Ambassador for Conscience Award, on Kaepernick. In 2017, he won Sports Illustrated’s Muhammad Ali Legacy Award.
...

 

[Treedbear]

I just object to Trump and others making "taking a knee" out to be unpatriotic.

It was not Trump who made the gesture unpatriotic. It is the fact that Kaep is an anti-police, anti-American extremist and that he was the one who popularized that particular gesture.
If a more mainstream, more moderate player had used that gesture in a more measured way (for example, by only protesting actual injustice and not every black men, including armed ones, killed by police), I do not think it would have become this controversial.

You just don't see that there's a systemic problem.

Taking a knee and Trump: the new era of total protest
Dorian Lynskey, Mon 25 Sep 2017 12.35 EDTLast modified on Fri 9 Feb 2018 13.37 EST
...
Last Friday, at a rally in Alabama, Trump ranted, unprovoked, about football players who took the knee during the national anthem, calling on NFL owners (“friends of mine”) to fire any “son of a bitch” who dared to protest. There was no need in the case of Kaepernick, who is in limbo as a free agent with no NFL teams willing to touch him. Later, on Twitter, he retracted an invitation to NBA champions the Golden State Warriors to visit the White House after the team’s star player, Stephen Curry, expressed reservations. In a stroke, he ensured that Kaepernick’s form of protest went viral. Dozens of NFL stars and other athletes took the knee over the weekend, as did musicians Stevie Wonder, Pharrell Williams and John Legend, and this time the target was clearly Trump. LeBron James of the Cleveland Cavaliers tweeted in Curry’s defence: “U bum … Going to White House was a great honor until you showed up!”
...

 

[Derec]

You just don't see that there's a systemic problem.

Whether or not there is a "systemic problem" is irrelevant to the issue that the "taking the knee" type of protest was started by a piece of shit extremists who thinks that police officers are "pigs" and who wants to abolish all police and prisons. That taints that form of protest.

 

[Derec]

Really? What I read was that he only wore them during practice.

And that makes it ok?

No, the US flag has 50 stars on it, not 13. I haven't found anywhere he implies that he hates America. You're projecting.

The 13 star flag was the original US flag. That design thus celebrates our history as a country. Country Kaep despises.

"To be clear, the abolition of these institutions is not the absence of accountability but rather the establishment of transformative and restorative processes that are not rooted in punitive practices," he writes. "By abolishing policing and prisons, not only can we eliminate white supremacist establishments, but we can create space for budgets to be reinvested directly into communities to address mental health needs, homelessness and houselessness, access to education, and job creation as well as community-based methods of accountability."

That word salad in impressive in its mimicry of the vacuous "social science academic" writing style, but what does it actually say other than the idiotic claim that police and prison are parts of so-called "white supremacy" and equally idiotic as well as naïve claim that social problems would render "punitive practices" obsolete. That is magical thinking, nothing more.

Over the next month, my hope is that you, the reader, will have confronted the white supremacist underpinnings of policing and prisons and the state-sanctioned oppression, destruction, and execution of Black and Indigenous people and people of color. You will understand the ways that reform has further legitimized policing and prisons into society. You will learn about the ways that abolishing policing and prisons can create a society able to invest in the well-being of the people. My sincere hope is that you will be forced to make a moral choice by the time you finish these essays: Will you continue to be actively complicit in the perpetuation of these systems, or will you take action to dismantle them for the benefit of a just future? This moment in history will not be forgotten nor will the actions you, I, and others take.

How would that even work? It's idiotic to think that they can be abolished and still have a civilized society. And it's racist as well as idiotic to think police and prisons are products of so-called "white supremacy".

That one seems to be very intelligently presented and certainly not evidence of hate for America. He sees one path to a solution. You and many others obviously don't agree, so you attempt to attack his patriotism without evidence.

I see no intelligence in these ramblings. Neither do I see any concrete "path to a solution". How will Kaep-ian utopia look like in practice? He (and others) are rather vague about that.

I haven't read the other essays as yet, but I thank you for pointing them out so I can better appreciate their positions. This is the kind of discussion the world needs and especially in America if we really expect change to happen for the better.

Not all change is for the better. Abolishing police and prisons is stupid. Yes, US incarcerates too many people. Yes, there are too many things that are criminalized (for example weed and sex work).
But we need police to enforce laws such as the ones against murder, robbery, assault etc. that any civilized society needs. And we need prisons to keep dangerous people isolated.
None of this is addressed by cockamamie fantasies that make Dr. Who look like hard science fiction.

During his two and a half years away, Kaepernick founded Know Your Rights, a campaign to promote “higher education, self-empowerment, and instruction to properly interact with law enforcement in various scenarios.” The non-profit organization has held several workshops in major cities, from Oakland to New York and Amsterdam. In 2018, Kaepernick also completed his Million Dollar Pledge, a promise to donate $1 million of his own money to 37 organizations supporting social justice and human rights causes.

This may or may not be good, depending on details of what is presented in these workshops. Given what we know about Kaepernick's extremist views, I do not hold much hope that it is good.

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

https://local.theonion.com/veteran-told-what-offends-him-1819580340

"WASHINGTON—In the wake of protests in which some players knelt during the national anthem prior to this week’s NFL games, a U.S. Army veteran has been informed that the acts offended him. “This behavior spits in the face of everything you fought for,” said friends, family members, co-workers, politicians, television pundits, newspaper columnists, and millions of social media users, notifying the 65-year-old who served two tours in the Vietnam War that the protests were a mockery of all the sacrifices he had made. “You didn’t risk your life so that a bunch of millionaires could grandstand about some social issues. When these players refuse to rise for the anthem, they’re trampling all over your legacy, so of course you’d be furious.” Upon stating that the protests saddened him but that he had fought for their right to take place, the veteran was informed that, while his service was appreciated, he just wasn’t getting it."

aa

 

[Treedbear]

Really? What I read was that he only wore them during practice.

And that makes it ok?

Once again the point is it's not about patriotism. The police force isn't the military (except in Trump's dreams). Why would you try to conflate them? Were you aware what you claimed was wrong information? Who is your source? Maybe you should question other things they want you to believe. Or maybe you're just elaborating on the facts to make your views seem more plausible.

The 13 star flag was the original US flag. That design thus celebrates our history as a country. Country Kaep despises.

Why Is Everyone So Upset About the Betsy Ross Flag?
There’s a pretty long history of the flag being used by extremist right-wing movements — and a recent move by Nike has brought that into the spotlight

...
The Betsy Ross flag might mean many different things to many different people, but given its more recent use among extremist groups, it certainly doesn’t mean nothing, as some on the right have claimed. In fact, Nike’s decision to pull the sneaker seems less a result of excessive political correctness, and more a decision motivated by the most American concern of all: making lots of money. A company with a market cap of $134.2 billion doesn’t have a lot to gain from selling a sneaker featuring a design that may or may not have been coopted by nationalist groups — but it certainly does have a lot to lose.

Clearly the original version of the flag represents many things and people have different opinions on why some are currently more important than others. Deal with it.

"To be clear, the abolition of these institutions is not the absence of accountability but rather the establishment of transformative and restorative processes that are not rooted in punitive practices," he writes. "By abolishing policing and prisons, not only can we eliminate white supremacist establishments, but we can create space for budgets to be reinvested directly into communities to address mental health needs, homelessness and houselessness, access to education, and job creation as well as community-based methods of accountability."

That word salad in impressive in its mimicry of the vacuous "social science academic" writing style, but what does it actually say other than the idiotic claim that police and prison are parts of so-called "white supremacy" and equally idiotic as well as naïve claim that social problems would render "punitive practices" obsolete. That is magical thinking, nothing more.

OMG he mentioned "science" and "academic"! I think you forgot "elite" ffs. This is the first of 30 essays from what I gather. It's supposed to serve as a starting point for the arguments that follow. Still not evidence of hate for America. Only for the desire for people to recognize the need for radical change.

Over the next month, my hope is that you, the reader, will have confronted the white supremacist underpinnings of policing and prisons and the state-sanctioned oppression, destruction, and execution of Black and Indigenous people and people of color. You will understand the ways that reform has further legitimized policing and prisons into society. You will learn about the ways that abolishing policing and prisons can create a society able to invest in the well-being of the people. My sincere hope is that you will be forced to make a moral choice by the time you finish these essays: Will you continue to be actively complicit in the perpetuation of these systems, or will you take action to dismantle them for the benefit of a just future? This moment in history will not be forgotten nor will the actions you, I, and others take.

How would that even work? It's idiotic to think that they can be abolished and still have a civilized society. And it's racist as well as idiotic to think police and prisons are products of so-called "white supremacy".

Punishment after Slavery: Southern State Penal Systems, 1865-1890
Christopher R. Adamson

Abstract
This paper identifies and analyzes the political and economic functions of the state penal systems in the southern United States after the Civil War. The system of prison administration, discipline, and labor which emerged after 1865--known as the convict lease system--was a functional replacement for slavery. Like the Black Codes, vagrancy laws, and sharecropping arrangements, the convict lease system was a mechanism of race control used to prevent ex-slaves from obtaining the status and rights enjoyed by wage workers. The organization and philosophy of crime control both before and after the Civil War reflected the fact that both slaves and ex-slaves were problem populations. As such, they were a threat to the existing system of class rule but also a useful resource--economically as a pool of cheap labor for southern industrialization, and politically or symbolically as a means to consolidate white supremacy.

So it's not always racist to point out the influence of white supremacist policies.

That one seems to be very intelligently presented and certainly not evidence of hate for America. He sees one path to a solution. You and many others obviously don't agree, so you attempt to attack his patriotism without evidence.

I see no intelligence in these ramblings. Neither do I see any concrete "path to a solution". How will Kaep-ian utopia look like in practice? He (and others) are rather vague about that.

We have a huge, crippling race problem in America that is not about to go away in spite of and partly the product of all the handwaving and promises about reform. Now even the right has begun to admit how despicably oppressive it has been allowed to become. But where are their solutions? More body cameras and transfer the bad cops to another precinct? Right-wing conservatives talk about the deep state but are seemingly blind to the deeply rooted causes of black oppression.

I haven't read the other essays as yet, but I thank you for pointing them out so I can better appreciate their positions. This is the kind of discussion the world needs and especially in America if we really expect change to happen for the better.

Not all change is for the better. Abolishing police and prisons is stupid. Yes, US incarcerates too many people. Yes, there are too many things that are criminalized (for example weed and sex work).
But we need police to enforce laws such as the ones against murder, robbery, assault etc. that any civilized society needs. And we need prisons to keep dangerous people isolated.
None of this is addressed by cockamamie fantasies that make Dr. Who look like hard science fiction.

So where is your "concrete 'path to a solution'"? What's your version of utopia? Put up or shut up. Ignoring it is not any longer an option.

During his two and a half years away, Kaepernick founded Know Your Rights, a campaign to promote “higher education, self-empowerment, and instruction to properly interact with law enforcement in various scenarios.” The non-profit organization has held several workshops in major cities, from Oakland to New York and Amsterdam. In 2018, Kaepernick also completed his Million Dollar Pledge, a promise to donate $1 million of his own money to 37 organizations supporting social justice and human rights causes.

This may or may not be good, depending on details of what is presented in these workshops. Given what we know about Kaepernick's extremist views, I do not hold much hope that it is good.

Well I guess that's a start. I'll dare to allow myself a bit of hope and to do some more searching. Yes, one thing I can say is lately I've been more hopeful, as strange as that may seem.

 

[Rhea]

https://local.theonion.com/veteran-told-what-offends-him-1819580340

"WASHINGTON—In the wake of protests in which some players knelt during the national anthem prior to this week’s NFL games, a U.S. Army veteran has been informed that the acts offended him. “This behavior spits in the face of everything you fought for,” said friends, family members, co-workers, politicians, television pundits, newspaper columnists, and millions of social media users, notifying the 65-year-old who served two tours in the Vietnam War that the protests were a mockery of all the sacrifices he had made. “You didn’t risk your life so that a bunch of millionaires could grandstand about some social issues. When these players refuse to rise for the anthem, they’re trampling all over your legacy, so of course you’d be furious.” Upon stating that the protests saddened him but that he had fought for their right to take place, the veteran was informed that, while his service was appreciated, he just wasn’t getting it."

aa

It's hard to notice this is from the Onion, it rings so true.

 

[Derec]

Once again the point is it's not about patriotism. The police force isn't the military (except in Trump's dreams). Why would you try to conflate them?

How is criticizing Kaep for wearing anti-police socks conflating police and military? I think there are a few cars missing in your train of thought.

Were you aware what you claimed was wrong information?

How is it wrong information? He wore the socks. It wasn't a photoshop. He really wore them.
Whether he wore them at the game or "only" during practice is immaterial as far as demonstrating his attitude toward police.

In fact, Nike’s decision to pull the sneaker seems less a result of excessive political correctness, and more a decision motivated by the most American concern of all: making lots of money.

It is excessive political correctness. They are just hoping that most of their customers subscribe to excessive political correctness and/or left wing anti-Americanism. They pulled the design because Colin Kaepernick, the extremist anti-US, anti-police, pro cop-killer piece of shit complained.

Clearly the original version of the flag represents many things and people have different opinions on why some are currently more important than others. Deal with it.

I am dealing with it by calling Kaep a piece of shit. Which he is. Deal with it!

OMG he mentioned "science" and "academic"! I think you forgot "elite" ffs.

To be fair, I do not consider social "science" a legit science. It's mostly left-wing politics masquerading as an academic discipline.

This is the first of 30 essays from what I gather. It's supposed to serve as a starting point for the arguments that follow. Still not evidence of hate for America. Only for the desire for people to recognize the need for radical change.

"Radical change" that involves abolishing police and freeing murderers like Wesley Cook.

It's pretty clear from his ramblings that he hates America.

Punishment after Slavery: Southern State Penal Systems, 1865-1890

You (and Kaep) are aware that this period ended 130 years ago, right?

This paper identifies and analyzes the political and economic functions of the state penal systems in the southern United States after the Civil War. The system of prison administration, discipline, and labor which emerged after 1865--known as the convict lease system--was a functional replacement for slavery. Like the Black Codes, vagrancy laws, and sharecropping arrangements, the convict lease system was a mechanism of race control used to prevent ex-slaves from obtaining the status and rights enjoyed by wage workers. The organization and philosophy of crime control both before and after the Civil War reflected the fact that both slaves and ex-slaves were problem populations. As such, they were a threat to the existing system of class rule but also a useful resource--economically as a pool of cheap labor for southern industrialization, and politically or symbolically as a means to consolidate white supremacy.

Let's stipulate this. What does that have to do with policing and prisons in the here and now? And it does not answer the question how you could have a civilized society without either.

So it's not always racist to point out the influence of white supremacist policies.

It is racist to call all policing and prisons "white supremacist" because some prisons might have been it 130 years ago. It's as idiotic and bigoted as calling Bundeswehr soldiers "Nazis" just because Nazi Germany had a military.

We have a huge, crippling race problem in America that is not about to go away in spite of and partly the product of all the handwaving and promises about reform.

The race problem is way overblown and to the extent it exists is not one-sided. For sure radicals, like the "trained Marxists" who started #BLM, are instigating a lot of racial hatred. And of course there is a reaction by the likes of Proud Boys. Hell, I do not think Trump would have ever gotten elected if not for wanton destruction during #BLM riots from 2014 onwards.

Now even the right has begun to admit how despicably oppressive it has been allowed to become. But where are their solutions? More body cameras and transfer the bad cops to another precinct? Right-wing conservatives talk about the deep state but are seemingly blind to the deeply rooted causes of black oppression.

Bad cops are the exception, not the rule. Vast majority of police shootings are justified. And even the non-justified ones are rarely if ever racially motivated. White people get shot by police every day too. But their deaths do not spark riots built on misinformation campaigns by #BLM and similar groups. Remember the Charlotte riots in 2016? When the riots were inflamed based on lies that the dead guy "had a book, not a gun" when in reality he had an illegal gun he wasn't allowed to possess because he had served 10 years for almost shooting a guy to death?
To bring this to Trump again, these riots happened less than two months before the 2016 election.

I haven't read the other essays as yet, but I thank you for pointing them out so I can better appreciate their positions. This is the kind of discussion the world needs and especially in America if we really expect change to happen for the better.

I have not read all of them either, but nothing in those that I have read would lead to change for the better.

So where is your "concrete 'path to a solution'"?

I do not believe the problem is several orders of magnitude as big as extremist activists are claiming.
But as far as policies that would make things better, here is what I think
- guns in hands of criminals are a huge problem in the US. We need a reform of weapon laws.
- police enforce laws. Prosecutors bring charges based on laws, and judges rule based on laws. Those laws are not made by any of them. They are made by elected officials. To reduce unnecessary policing, and reduce unproductive criminal punishment and incarceration, laws need to change. For example, reform drug laws and legalize marijuana. Another example: end criminalization of consensual sex work. Both easy fixes.

What's your version of utopia? Put up or shut up. Ignoring it is not any longer an option.

I do not pretend that anything like a "utopia" is possible. But I know abolishing police/prisons would make things worse, not better. Not all laws on the books right now are good, but we do need some laws, and those laws need to be enforced. And many of those violating laws need to be locked up. You may be able to change the name from "police" to "people's militia" or something, but it becomes a distinction without a difference.

 

[laughing dog]

I just object to Trump and others making "taking a knee" out to be unpatriotic.

It was not Trump who made the gesture unpatriotic.

It is not unpatriotic. I can understand why an ignorant Trumpsucker would think that but that is not you. It is a sign of respectful protest which is very patriotic and American.

It is the fact that Kaep is an anti-police, anti-American extremist and that he was the one who popularized that particular gesture.

What actual evidence is there that Mr. Kaepernick is "anti-American"?

 

[Jarhyn]

It is not unpatriotic. I can understand why an ignorant Trumpsucker would think that but that is not you. It is a sign of respectful protest which is very patriotic and American.

It is the fact that Kaep is an anti-police, anti-American extremist and that he was the one who popularized that particular gesture.

What actual evidence is there that Mr. Kaepernick is "anti-American"?

They hate racism, and if there's anything besides Apple Pie that is American, it's fucking racism

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

“Thank you for your service.”

That is a phrase often spoken to those (at least in the U.S. here) who have served in the military, especially those who have fought in battles and risked their lives. However, I have plenty of mixed sentiments regarding that.

1. Plenty of people did not volunteer to join the military for any kind of noble purpose or defense of others. They did so because their life was at a low point and they had no other options, or they were drafted into a war despite attempting to avoid it, etc. So their motivations were not charitable, and perhaps were selfish, even if their actions still coincidentally benefited me. Should I really bother expressing gratitude to them?
2. Many veterans develop very ugly personas. They can be arrogant, jerks, bullying, etc. They will have horrible political, social, and ethical views fueled in part by their alpha-male machismo attitudes. They exploit the rest of us who have not served in the military (raises hand), by effectively treating us as inferior to them.

How do you interact with veterans who fit the above descriptions? There are some in my family and plenty more encountered online who behave as such. Their ugly personalities may be the result of numerous factors, some related to their military experiences (PTSD?) and others that are entirely unrelated. It is still difficult to navigate through conversations with such fiercely combative people. I have conflicting feelings towards them.

This probably deserves its own thread but there's also the "they fought for your freedom."

Did they? Always? I signed up personally because I had no job and a recruiter said it'd help financially with college. My father probably actually did sign up ideologically because he was fighting for Vietnamese freedom but that wasn't American freedom nor really freedom. My grandfather, yeah sure, probably both ideological and opportunity driven....just at the end of WW2 on a battleship. And my great grandfather building forts in Scotland during WW1 to defend but that war wasn't about freedom but pride in nationalism. My great great great grandfather who died in the civil war probably didn't join to stop slavery in the south but instead to preserve the union in defense against terrorists and economic opportunity.

And back then if a rich someone was drafted and didn't want to serve they could spend $300 to make someone else do it. People violently revolted over that and so in later incarnations of transferring risk to lower class people, the rich had to be more subtle...like get phony doctor's notes for wars that largely benefited them.

So the other day, I see this facebook meme posted by my wife's relative. It's about a student not standing for the flag. Saying something like that's fine but respect the flag because you know who fought for your right to sit? That soldier.

And I'm thinking should I tell them _lawyers_ fought for the right to sit? Should I tell them women protestors fought for the right to vote? That her religion otherwise would have made it so she couldn't argue with me on facebook? Should I tell her most wars are about crap and many soldiers are searching careers? I didn't want to be an asshole to my wife's relative so I didn't write anything.

I only challenge my own biological relatives on facebook...but the morally superior ignorance is annoying.