Veterans with bad attitudes

[Toni]

I don't thank anonymous for anonymous acts. Hero, sociopath?

There is an unhealthy default worship for anonymous people that are in or were in the military.

It is unhealthy and it is default but it is hardly worship or even genuine gratitude. I try to think of it as an overcompensation for the disrespect and dishonor heaped upon young men returning from Viet Nam, despite that most of them were drafted or else volunteered in order to avoid being drafted and to have some tiny bit of say in where they ended up.

 

[Toni]

I try to be polite to the professional killers I meet, just as a generally sensible policy.

I know you won't believe it, but they are really just like you. No more or less killers, except as they've been forced into being. It is the rare military person who considers that they will actually perhaps be forced to fire at another human being at the time they enlist. And for most of them, an unbearable burden once they have had to do.

 

[ronburgundy]

I don't thank anonymous for anonymous acts. Hero, sociopath?

There is an unhealthy default worship for anonymous people that are in or were in the military.

It is unhealthy and it is default but it is hardly worship or even genuine gratitude. I try to think of it as an overcompensation for the disrespect and dishonor heaped upon young men returning from Viet Nam, despite that most of them were drafted or else volunteered in order to avoid being drafted and to have some tiny bit of say in where they ended up.

I would say that much of it does qualify as "worship" with a level of dogmatic sacredness that anyone who is caught doing or saying anything that could even be mistaken as critical of soldiers is viciously attacked and villainized. It is tethered to the kind of authoritarian nationalism demanded by the right. The anthem kneeling nonsense is a perfect example of this.

 

[laughing dog]

One of my sons served in the US Army and spent 18 months (the worst 18 consecutive months in my life) in Afghanistan in a battle zone. To this day, he dislikes being thanked for his service. My father who fought in the Korean War did not want or like being thanked for his service.

My father told me that if people really wanted to thank vets for their service, they'd push for better medical care for veterans.

 

[Toni]

I don't thank anonymous for anonymous acts. Hero, sociopath?

There is an unhealthy default worship for anonymous people that are in or were in the military.

It is unhealthy and it is default but it is hardly worship or even genuine gratitude. I try to think of it as an overcompensation for the disrespect and dishonor heaped upon young men returning from Viet Nam, despite that most of them were drafted or else volunteered in order to avoid being drafted and to have some tiny bit of say in where they ended up.

I would say that much of it does qualify as "worship" with a level of dogmatic sacredness that anyone who is caught doing or saying anything that could even be mistaken as critical of soldiers is viciously attacked and villainized. It is tethered to the kind of authoritarian nationalism demanded by the right. The anthem kneeling nonsense is a perfect example of this.

I see worship as sincere. I see this outpouring of 'gratitude' as insincere and just easier for those experiencing the emotion than guilt and shame. Although I do consider that my response to seeing little old ladies express their gratitude is a bit softer and may actually reflect some meaningful feeling in remembrance of those they lost in war.

 

[rousseau]

I don't thank anonymous for anonymous acts. Hero, sociopath?

There is an unhealthy default worship for anonymous people that are in or were in the military.

It is unhealthy and it is default but it is hardly worship or even genuine gratitude. I try to think of it as an overcompensation for the disrespect and dishonor heaped upon young men returning from Viet Nam, despite that most of them were drafted or else volunteered in order to avoid being drafted and to have some tiny bit of say in where they ended up.

At this point I don't see a lot of intention at all in many people's views with regards to ~ military, nationalism, favourite sports team. To me it seems like the identity comes first, and then the view springs from the identity. My team does this thing so I do this thing because I want to fit in with my team. There's no logic beyond that at all.

This is why I always find Remembrance day in Canada a bit jarring. Ok, on some level I can understand the sacrifice that people went through in previous wars, but we constantly parrot all of these slogans, and act out norms, but are any of us sincerely thinking about the reality of war at any point? Are any of us sincerely thinking about those in wars today? Or are we just throwing on a poppy then patting ourselves on the back.

 

[Politesse]

I try to be polite to the professional killers I meet, just as a generally sensible policy.

I know you won't believe it, but they are really just like you. No more or less killers, except as they've been forced into being. It is the rare military person who considers that they will actually perhaps be forced to fire at another human being at the time they enlist. And for most of them, an unbearable burden once they have had to do.

I am aware. They are, however, trained in the art of killing people. Rational to mind your manners around such folk.

 

[ronburgundy]

I would say that much of it does qualify as "worship" with a level of dogmatic sacredness that anyone who is caught doing or saying anything that could even be mistaken as critical of soldiers is viciously attacked and villainized. It is tethered to the kind of authoritarian nationalism demanded by the right. The anthem kneeling nonsense is a perfect example of this.

I see worship as sincere. I see this outpouring of 'gratitude' as insincere and just easier for those experiencing the emotion than guilt and shame. Although I do consider that my response to seeing little old ladies express their gratitude is a bit softer and may actually reflect some meaningful feeling in remembrance of those they lost in war.

I'm not sure most "worship" is "sincere". It's highly analogous to religious "worship" and belief. It's mostly about demanding mindless loyalty to nationalist/institutional symbols so that anyone who doesn't can be targeted as an enemy and "other".

 

[Terrell]

Eh. We made a choice.

Whether you approve of the choice, or the reason for the choice, or the personal developments typically associated with the consequences of the choice, consider that enough of us made the choice such that they didn't bring back the draft.

^^ This.

 

[Toni]

I don't thank anonymous for anonymous acts. Hero, sociopath?

There is an unhealthy default worship for anonymous people that are in or were in the military.

It is unhealthy and it is default but it is hardly worship or even genuine gratitude. I try to think of it as an overcompensation for the disrespect and dishonor heaped upon young men returning from Viet Nam, despite that most of them were drafted or else volunteered in order to avoid being drafted and to have some tiny bit of say in where they ended up.

I would say that much of it does qualify as "worship" with a level of dogmatic sacredness that anyone who is caught doing or saying anything that could even be mistaken as critical of soldiers is viciously attacked and villainized. It is tethered to the kind of authoritarian nationalism demanded by the right. The anthem kneeling nonsense is a perfect example of this.

The anthem kneeling is supposedly against the US flag, which of course it is not. But yeah, I have a bunch of red neck relatives who never served a day in their life anyone or anything except themselves claim that it is disrespectful of all the brave men who gave you the right to (actually, it was, among other things, the right to protest).

No actual military I know believes that shit.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I would say that much of it does qualify as "worship" with a level of dogmatic sacredness that anyone who is caught doing or saying anything that could even be mistaken as critical of soldiers is viciously attacked and villainized. It is tethered to the kind of authoritarian nationalism demanded by the right. The anthem kneeling nonsense is a perfect example of this.

The anthem kneeling is supposedly against the US flag, which of course it is not. But yeah, I have a bunch of red neck relatives who never served a day in their life anyone or anything except themselves claim that it is disrespectful of all the brave men who gave you the right to (actually, it was, among other things, the right to protest).

No actual military I know believes that shit.

Trump?

Oh wait... he didn’t serve. I keep forgetting his life long plight with bone spurs. And being so full of shit that if he took a bullet, it’d put his entire platoon in danger of infection.

 

[ronburgundy]

I would say that much of it does qualify as "worship" with a level of dogmatic sacredness that anyone who is caught doing or saying anything that could even be mistaken as critical of soldiers is viciously attacked and villainized. It is tethered to the kind of authoritarian nationalism demanded by the right. The anthem kneeling nonsense is a perfect example of this.

The anthem kneeling is supposedly against the US flag, which of course it is not. But yeah, I have a bunch of red neck relatives who never served a day in their life anyone or anything except themselves claim that it is disrespectful of all the brave men who gave you the right to (actually, it was, among other things, the right to protest).

No actual military I know believes that shit.

I agree that much of the nationalistic military worship comes from those who haven't served, but my brother and father both were career military and fully believe that the kneeling was an attack on our sacred troops that everyone must treat as selfless heroes. I've been around many military lifers who view themselves as the selfless saviors of humanity and Kaepernick as a traitor. The anthem and flag itself have become essentially synonymous with praise for the military among conservatives. In fact, I bet the vast majority of Trump supporters and Republicans in general who are vets hold this view, and polls show most vets support Trump and they skew GOP almost 2:1. And I dont' think this is b/c the military experience makes them conservatives. Especially over the past 20 years when actual combat has been a high probability, many have joined b/c they support the killing of the non-Christian, non-white evil. Bush invoked Christianity to invade Iraq b/c it works. There are vets who are a minority exception, but there is strong vein of far right nationalistic, religious, white supremacy in the military. My brother was always a mindless follower prone to authoritarianism but he never said the N-word in his life, until after just 3 months in the military on his first leave it was every other word (the other word being "bitch" to refer to any woman). Completely predictably, he is now a cop.

 

[Brian63]

polls show most vets support Trump and they skew GOP almost 2:1.

Notably, this election between Biden vs Trump has only a very small Trump lead among the military, as compared to other elections where the GOP presidential candidate holds a wide advantage. Contributing factors likely would be due to Trump insulting military members as well as not caring about Russia's placing bounties on the lives of U.S. soldiers.

 

[Treedbear]

I would say that much of it does qualify as "worship" with a level of dogmatic sacredness that anyone who is caught doing or saying anything that could even be mistaken as critical of soldiers is viciously attacked and villainized. It is tethered to the kind of authoritarian nationalism demanded by the right. The anthem kneeling nonsense is a perfect example of this.

The anthem kneeling is supposedly against the US flag, which of course it is not. But yeah, I have a bunch of red neck relatives who never served a day in their life anyone or anything except themselves claim that it is disrespectful of all the brave men who gave you the right to (actually, it was, among other things, the right to protest).

No actual military I know believes that shit.

I agree that much of the nationalistic military worship comes from those who haven't served, but my brother and father both were career military and fully believe that the kneeling was an attack on our sacred troops that everyone must treat as selfless heroes. I've been around many military lifers who view themselves as the selfless saviors of humanity and Kaepernick as a traitor. The anthem and flag itself have become essentially synonymous with praise for the military among conservatives. In fact, I bet the vast majority of Trump supporters and Republicans in general who are vets hold this view, and polls show most vets support Trump and they skew GOP almost 2:1. And I dont' think this is b/c the military experience makes them conservatives. Especially over the past 20 years when actual combat has been a high probability, many have joined b/c they support the killing of the non-Christian, non-white evil. Bush invoked Christianity to invade Iraq b/c it works. There are vets who are a minority exception, but there is strong vein of far right nationalistic, religious, white supremacy in the military. My brother was always a mindless follower prone to authoritarianism but he never said the N-word in his life, until after just 3 months in the military on his first leave it was every other word (the other word being "bitch" to refer to any woman). Completely predictably, he is now a cop.

What I want to know is how did kneeling become less respectful than standing? Disrespect would be turning away from the flag. Of course that was a rhetorical question. The answer is because Trump says so! I think we have a major pandemic of stupidity.

 

[skepticalbip]

I agree that much of the nationalistic military worship comes from those who haven't served, but my brother and father both were career military and fully believe that the kneeling was an attack on our sacred troops that everyone must treat as selfless heroes.

My only problem with the "taking a knee" demonstration at sports events is that people watch sports as an escape. Few want politics inserted into every facet of their lives including their 'escape time'. I would certainly support such demonstration in front of a local police station or the state house.

My brother was always a mindless follower prone to authoritarianism but he never said the N-word in his life, until after just 3 months in the military on his first leave it was every other word (the other word being "bitch" to refer to any woman). Completely predictably, he is now a cop.

I take it that your brother wasn't in the Navy. Sailors quickly learn to pepper their language with 'fuck' and it's various derivatives as verbs, nouns, adjectives, adverbs, etc.

 

[Brian63]

My only problem with the "taking a knee" demonstration at sports events is that people watch sports as an escape. Few want politics inserted into every facet of their lives including their 'escape time'.

If they would not want politics inserted into it, they should not be playing the national anthem at it.

 

[Toni]

I try to be polite to the professional killers I meet, just as a generally sensible policy.

I know you won't believe it, but they are really just like you. No more or less killers, except as they've been forced into being. It is the rare military person who considers that they will actually perhaps be forced to fire at another human being at the time they enlist. And for most of them, an unbearable burden once they have had to do.

I am aware. They are, however, trained in the art of killing people. Rational to mind your manners around such folk.

They're not the only ones who are trained in the art of killing. Or who are capable of killing.

 

[Toni]

I would say that much of it does qualify as "worship" with a level of dogmatic sacredness that anyone who is caught doing or saying anything that could even be mistaken as critical of soldiers is viciously attacked and villainized. It is tethered to the kind of authoritarian nationalism demanded by the right. The anthem kneeling nonsense is a perfect example of this.

The anthem kneeling is supposedly against the US flag, which of course it is not. But yeah, I have a bunch of red neck relatives who never served a day in their life anyone or anything except themselves claim that it is disrespectful of all the brave men who gave you the right to (actually, it was, among other things, the right to protest).

No actual military I know believes that shit.

I agree that much of the nationalistic military worship comes from those who haven't served, but my brother and father both were career military and fully believe that the kneeling was an attack on our sacred troops that everyone must treat as selfless heroes. I've been around many military lifers who view themselves as the selfless saviors of humanity and Kaepernick as a traitor. The anthem and flag itself have become essentially synonymous with praise for the military among conservatives. In fact, I bet the vast majority of Trump supporters and Republicans in general who are vets hold this view, and polls show most vets support Trump and they skew GOP almost 2:1. And I dont' think this is b/c the military experience makes them conservatives. Especially over the past 20 years when actual combat has been a high probability, many have joined b/c they support the killing of the non-Christian, non-white evil. Bush invoked Christianity to invade Iraq b/c it works. There are vets who are a minority exception, but there is strong vein of far right nationalistic, religious, white supremacy in the military. My brother was always a mindless follower prone to authoritarianism but he never said the N-word in his life, until after just 3 months in the military on his first leave it was every other word (the other word being "bitch" to refer to any woman). Completely predictably, he is now a cop.

Ah. My experience with military personnel/former is mostly different. My kid is currently being deployed now. He's pretty much a lefty and considers me to be relatively conservative but that is more knee jerk than actually listening to anything I say. For the most part, the other military/former military that I know respect the right to protest, along with every other right. The people I know who are all bent out of shape over kneeling are the same ones who embrace kneeling on a field if the coach leads it, in prayer.

I think it boils down to whether people are authoritarian or not.

 

[ZiprHead]

Both of my older brothers are Vietnam vets. One came back and joined the national guard. He did three tours in the gulf wars. Retired just a few years ago as a sergeant with a chest full of salad.

Both of them are lefties.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I take it that your brother wasn't in the Navy. Sailors quickly learn to pepper their language with 'fuck' and it's various derivatives as verbs, nouns, adjectives, adverbs, etc.

My wife taught English in high school. On a day she was way ahead in one class. To kill time so three classes would get their exams on the same day, they tried to use the f-bomb for every piece of grammar. She reported near complete success. "It can be used for everything but a gerund."
I thought that odd dince she was also enlisted. "You never heard someone say that all lesbians really need is a damn good fucking?"
Four full minutes of silence.
"Well, where the fuck was your fucking ass when I fucking needed it, fucker?"