• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

Video essay: how studios sabotage their own movies

Underseer

Contributor
Joined
May 29, 2003
Messages
11,413
Location
Chicago suburbs
Basic Beliefs
atheism, resistentialism
Studios are paying the bills, and ultimately what they want goes, but many of the times, the changes they ask for result in a damaged movie that won't make them money. At some point, you have to admit that interfering with the director's vision does more damage to the marketability of the movie than whatever risk the director was taking.

What Hollywood suits always seem to forget is that a movie needs to be a good movie before it is anything else. You only worry about the "else" when doing so won't change a good movie into a bad movie.

 
That youtuber has a lot of cool content. This video was good, but he is usually even better. His podcast is very anarchic and in bad taste in the best possible way.

Midnight's Edge channel has lots of stuff about this specific topic of studio interference, the ones on Sony films are enlightening. Also I like the "Beyond the Trailer" channel.

Also look up the Redletter Media review of Jack and Jill with respect to the movie making business for a project that was shit to begin with. So it is not the same as studio interference. It has been referenced a lot elsewhere. The claims in it may be overly broad, not sure.

Ah heck, this is the video





Most of stuff about hints of some sort of nepotistic embezzlement scheme start at 2 minutes in for the second video.
 
I don't always agree with the Beyond the Trailer lady (nerds don't always agree with other nerds' tastes, you know how it is), but I watch her because it's fun when she gets really enthusiastic about something.

If you just like watching nerds get really excited about stuff, Andre "Black Nerd" is really adorable. He had a peculiar, nerdy way of shouting "Wakanda!" when the hype for Black Panther was building up. He's not really into comic books (he's more into other nerd stuff more), but he got really excited about the African representation in Black Panther.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, and Comic Book Girl 19 has some amazing X-Men retrospectives.
 
Lindsay Ellis is mostly good for film analysis, but she definitely has her nerd moments and keeps joking about having written romantic fan fiction about the Transformers (at least I hope she was joking about that).

She did a bizarre video series that explains basic film analysis using the Transformers movie of all things. It's weird to hear a really intelligent person talk about the mechanics of making movies as awful as the Transformers movies.
 
Studios are paying the bills, and ultimately what they want goes, but many of the times, the changes they ask for result in a damaged movie that won't make them money. At some point, you have to admit that interfering with the director's vision does more damage to the marketability of the movie than whatever risk the director was taking.

What Hollywood suits always seem to forget is that a movie needs to be a good movie before it is anything else. You only worry about the "else" when doing so won't change a good movie into a bad movie.
the problem with this line of thinking is the reverse, which nobody ever wants to admit to because it doesn't play into the ayn rand bad-boy fantasy about directors too smart for the stuffy suits in charge of the money, but... just as many horrible movies are saved by studio input and turned into hits as movies which may or may not have been any good are ruined by studio input.

so, sure... there are times when "the studio" wrecks a weird little gem, but i'd be willing to bet that if you did an objective analysis of films where large changes were made from the script/original edit due to studio input, you'd find that it works more than it doesn't.
 
Studios are paying the bills, and ultimately what they want goes, but many of the times, the changes they ask for result in a damaged movie that won't make them money. At some point, you have to admit that interfering with the director's vision does more damage to the marketability of the movie than whatever risk the director was taking.

What Hollywood suits always seem to forget is that a movie needs to be a good movie before it is anything else. You only worry about the "else" when doing so won't change a good movie into a bad movie.
the problem with this line of thinking is the reverse, which nobody ever wants to admit to because it doesn't play into the ayn rand bad-boy fantasy about directors too smart for the stuffy suits in charge of the money, but... just as many horrible movies are saved by studio input and turned into hits as movies which may or may not have been any good are ruined by studio input.

so, sure... there are times when "the studio" wrecks a weird little gem, but i'd be willing to bet that if you did an objective analysis of films where large changes were made from the script/original edit due to studio input, you'd find that it works more than it doesn't.

Then demonstrate that this is the case. I don't doubt that this is sometimes the case, but how on Earth would you quantify something like that?
 
Then demonstrate that this is the case.
sure, give me a few dozen thousand dollars and unabridged access to records relating to movie production from every studio in the US and in a couple years i'll be happy to give you a detailed report on that.

I don't doubt that this is sometimes the case, but how on Earth would you quantify something like that?
well the problem here is that you don't seem to be considering that the inverse is true: would fant4stic have been a smash hit if not for the studios? the underlying assumption is usually that "studio interference wrecked the movie", but it seems like this is a statement which is presumed true without objectively quantifying what "wrecked" means.

but anyways the two biggest examples i can think of off the top of my head where studio "interference" took a steaming pile of dog shit and made a cultural milestone out of it are back to the future and easy rider, and a solid argument could be made for star wars as well.
 
Then demonstrate that this is the case.
sure, give me a few dozen thousand dollars and unabridged access to records relating to movie production from every studio in the US and in a couple years i'll be happy to give you a detailed report on that.

I don't doubt that this is sometimes the case, but how on Earth would you quantify something like that?
well the problem here is that you don't seem to be considering that the inverse is true: would fant4stic have been a smash hit if not for the studios? the underlying assumption is usually that "studio interference wrecked the movie", but it seems like this is a statement which is presumed true without objectively quantifying what "wrecked" means.

but anyways the two biggest examples i can think of off the top of my head where studio "interference" took a steaming pile of dog shit and made a cultural milestone out of it are back to the future and easy rider, and a solid argument could be made for star wars as well.

So, you admit you can't possibly know how common it is in one direction versus another, but you still insist that it is wrong to complain about studio interference in cases when it definitely had negative results?

Is this somehow a reflexive defense of large corporations or something? You have some ideological reason to automatically defend elites?
 
So, you admit you can't possibly know how common it is in one direction versus another, but you still insist that it is wrong to complain about studio interference in cases when it definitely had negative results?
Is this somehow a reflexive defense of large corporations or something? You have some ideological reason to automatically defend elites?
insist? what end of who's ass are you pulling this out of?

ooohhhhh wait right it's underseer, i forgot that means if i have an opinion which in any way deviates from what he demands is the absolute truth it means i'm a racist sexist xenophobic homophobic triggered SJW cuck who's lying about their values.

sorry nevermind, i don't know how i forgot that it's not allowed to do anything short of fawning over underseer's perfection and greatness in all things.

enjoy your circle jerking UnderTrump, you clearly need it.
 
So, you admit you can't possibly know how common it is in one direction versus another, but you still insist that it is wrong to complain about studio interference in cases when it definitely had negative results?
Is this somehow a reflexive defense of large corporations or something? You have some ideological reason to automatically defend elites?
insist? what end of who's ass are you pulling this out of?

ooohhhhh wait right it's underseer, i forgot that means if i have an opinion which in any way deviates from what he demands is the absolute truth it means i'm a racist sexist xenophobic homophobic triggered SJW cuck who's lying about their values.

sorry nevermind, i don't know how i forgot that it's not allowed to do anything short of fawning over underseer's perfection and greatness in all things.

enjoy your circle jerking UnderTrump, you clearly need it.

Uh, sure.

Look, you took offense to the whole argument being made here.

Your argument does not appear to be based on evidence. You can't explain why it is unreasonable to point out specific instances when studio interference had disastrous results, but your panties are definitely in a wad over the fact that people are complaining about it.

I'm simply offering a possible explanation for why you are so emotional about this. What is it about people complaining about this that upsets you so much? If it's not ideological, then what is it? Was your father a movie studio executive whose career was destroyed by directors complaining about his interference in their movies or something?
 
but anyways the two biggest examples i can think of off the top of my head where studio "interference" took a steaming pile of dog shit and made a cultural milestone out of it are back to the future and easy rider, and a solid argument could be made for star wars as well.

IIRC the original Star Wars script was a mess in terms of simple storytelling, and needed someone to fix it at a technical level. The examples in the OP are instances where good films were maimed by marketing.

well the problem here is that you don't seem to be considering that the inverse is true: would fant4stic have been a smash hit if not for the studios? the underlying assumption is usually that "studio interference wrecked the movie", but it seems like this is a statement which is presumed true without objectively quantifying what "wrecked" means.

Fant4stic gets 27 on Metacritic. The shitty ending cops some of the blame, although many reviews don't even mention it, instead critcising the movie with respect to pacing, dialogue, and character development.

There is a sense of panic that is palpable in the film’s final twenty minutes or so, almost as if executives at 20th Century Fox looked at the first two-thirds of Trank’s film and, realizing he had bucked convention (unsuccessfully), swung the entire movie towards a digital effects heavy conclusion. Clunky one liners, where there weren’t any before, abound, a pixel heavy battle ensues, and there is a closing scene that is so misjudged and obnoxiously calibrated to hand hold the audience to embrace a new franchise, it had the critics at my screening derisively laughing at the screen.

http://www.indiewire.com/2015/08/re...-mara-jamie-bell-and-michael-b-jordan-261118/

All of this takes at least an hour, and it's build-up to …nothing at all. A sense of heaviness, gloom and complete disappointment settles in during the second half, as the mundane setup pays no dramatic or sensory dividends whatsoever.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/review/film-review-fantastic-four-813140

For a while, anyway, "The Fantastic Four" seems to be re-conceiving the superhero movie as a scientific mystery-adventure...And after you've given your heroes and your bad guy their powers, you don't then suddenly veer off in another direction and make, essentially, "Fantastic Four, Part II," pitting the foursome (which now includes the orange, rock-skinned super-tough-guy Ben) against Doom in a series of battles that are packed into the space of about fifteen minutes, look and sound and feel unoriginal and cheap, and don't even explore the characters' abilities, and their emotional response to those abilities, in compelling ways.

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/fantastic-four-2015

The film grinds onward to a slapdash final battle, one marked by iffy CGI and less narrative coherence, that sees the four battling it out with an unexpected (well, to them) baddie with murky motives. It’s the first time the group has assembled to work together, but it lacks propulsion or excitement, instead feeling cut-short and cut-rate. That it all climaxes with a weirdly cutesy ending that cheerily plays up the possibility of a sequel is even more grating — who could possibly want more of this?

http://www.indiewire.com/2015/08/heres-the-bigger-problem-with-the-failure-of-fantastic-four-59584/
 
What Hollywood suits always seem to forget is that a movie needs to be a good movie before it is anything else. You only worry about the "else" when doing so won't change a good movie into a bad movie.
"Good movie" is a very hard thing to quantify. Adam Sandler has been in an endless series of crap movies. Big Daddy, Pixels, Grown Ups grossed over $200 million. His total gross is $4 billion globally!

So movie studios have drawn lots of profit from awful movies. Then you have crap like 2012 and Armageddon that make lots of money but are complete crap.

The latest Marvel Studios stuff has changed things so much. Though I ponder how much LOTRs comes into play here, because that studio bet the farm and the farmer's daughter on that trilogy and showed if you do it well, people will watch it and in big numbers.

How much is intentional, how much is not? Gone With The Wind was an absolute nightmare to produce. And it was a masterpiece. The latest DC movie, likewise fuckery with directors and writers... not a masterpiece.
 
What Hollywood suits always seem to forget is that a movie needs to be a good movie before it is anything else. You only worry about the "else" when doing so won't change a good movie into a bad movie.
"Good movie" is a very hard thing to quantify. Adam Sandler has been in an endless series of crap movies. Big Daddy, Pixels, Grown Ups grossed over $200 million. His total gross is $4 billion globally!

So movie studios have drawn lots of profit from awful movies. Then you have crap like 2012 and Armageddon that make lots of money but are complete crap.

The latest Marvel Studios stuff has changed things so much. Though I ponder how much LOTRs comes into play here, because that studio bet the farm and the farmer's daughter on that trilogy and showed if you do it well, people will watch it and in big numbers.

How much is intentional, how much is not? Gone With The Wind was an absolute nightmare to produce. And it was a masterpiece. The latest DC movie, likewise fuckery with directors and writers... not a masterpiece.

In the specific case of Justice League, I would say that studio interference made a bad movie mediocre, because it sounded like in Snyder's hands the movie was repeating the mistakes of Batman vs Superman. But overall, it sounds like most of the studio interference WB made on those DCEU movies were for the worse. It seems like the movie executives were trying to blindly copy Marvel without really understanding why Marvel movies are so successful.

One of the things Marvel does well is making sure everyone understands the motivations of the heroes. We understand that Peter Parker is driven by guilt, and we understand that Parker's guilt is different from the guilt that drives Tony Stark.

But why was the cannibal lizard guy willing to risk his life in Suicide Squad? Why was Cyborg risking his life if he doesn't even feel human anymore and apparently has no emotional connections to anyone who would have suffered had the parademons taken over? Why was Flash hanging out other than feeling lonely?

Sure, changing the tone was probably the right move, but changing the tone after the movie was already in production and not fixing the problems with making motives clear to the audiences?

If the audience doesn't understand a character's motivation, they they aren't going to be emotionally invested in the character once the violence starts happening, and that's poison to an action movie.

Batman movies generally do well because we understand his motivation. He's emotionally damaged from watching his parents die and everything he does is driven by the existential horror of that little boy. His sidekicks are a surrogate family trained to protect themselves. His suprevillain enemies are emotional substitutes for the killer he never found. He spends millions trying to rehabilitate the irredeemable because he desperately clings to the idealism of his dead parents.

Why is Superman fighting after both Ma and Pa Kent kept telling him he owes this planet nothing? What is Aquaman trying to prove?

Lex Luthor junior actually had a decent and well thought-out motivation in BvS, but we never found out what it was because the main characters were talking to each other in the foreground while Luthor was giving his speech in the background. None of the added scenes in the extended edition fixed what was lost because the audience didn't get to hear that speech properly. So none of his motives make sense, and thus we lack emotional investment when Luthor decides to manipulate Superman and Batman.

All the executives did was make the tone lighter and added snappy dialog without trying to ask the most basic questions that can be asked of any drama.
 
What Hollywood suits always seem to forget is that a movie needs to be a good movie before it is anything else. You only worry about the "else" when doing so won't change a good movie into a bad movie.
"Good movie" is a very hard thing to quantify. Adam Sandler has been in an endless series of crap movies. Big Daddy, Pixels, Grown Ups grossed over $200 million. His total gross is $4 billion globally!

So movie studios have drawn lots of profit from awful movies. Then you have crap like 2012 and Armageddon that make lots of money but are complete crap.

The latest Marvel Studios stuff has changed things so much. Though I ponder how much LOTRs comes into play here, because that studio bet the farm and the farmer's daughter on that trilogy and showed if you do it well, people will watch it and in big numbers.

How much is intentional, how much is not? Gone With The Wind was an absolute nightmare to produce. And it was a masterpiece. The latest DC movie, likewise fuckery with directors and writers... not a masterpiece.

Audiences have no idea what makes a "good movie". Studios have no such difficulty - a "good movie" is one that makes money. The best movies can win Oscars, or get panned by the critics. They can be technically dreadful, or works of art. But as far as the studios are concerned, a good movie earns a LOT more than it costs to make.

The sad thing is that nobody knows how to make a hugely profitable movie. So they just keep on trying to remake the hugely profitable movies of the past - many of which were expected to bomb.
 
Back
Top Bottom