Violence during consensual sex has become normalised

[Lion IRC]

....more than a third of UK women under the age of 40 have experienced unwanted slapping, choking, gagging or spitting

It clearly says unwanted.

Again, those sexual inclinations are not unwanted by the people who had them. So, my question is: would you favor forced treatment?

I think people should be allowed - not forced - to seek clinical therapy for their unwanted sexual inclinations. Porn addiction, hyper-sexually, low libido, internalised homophobia, pedophilia, harmful fetishes, zoophilia, sodomy...

I'm not saying you shouldn't.

I don't.
You can't force people to stop thinking immoral thoughts.

Maybe there is a point (or there would be, if the treatment could work) to forcibly treat people who engage in sexual crimes by doing violence against those who do not want it. But in that case, it's not the sexual inclinations to have violent consensual sex, but rather, the inclinations to have violent sex with people who have not consented to it that might be treated (if you had a way of treating them that is not disproportionate to the level of the crime, which depends on the level of the crime of course).

2019.
Gender equality, equal pay, wimmins liberation, the pill, abortion on demand, SSM, no fault divorce. And yet we somehow find ourselves in an era where 'inappropriate' #metoo behaviour - sexual gluttony - is apparently more overt and prevalent than 1920. (Back when men opened doors for women and stood when a lady entered the room. And women and children made it onto the Titanic lifeboats first.)

 

[Angra Mainyu]

I think people should be allowed - not forced - to seek clinical therapy for their unwanted sexual inclinations. Porn addiction, hyper-sexually, low libido, internalised homophobia, pedophilia, harmful fetishes, zoophilia, sodomy...

Sure, I agree. But that is not applicable to the thread. In fact, you said before

....more than a third of UK women under the age of 40 have experienced unwanted slapping, choking, gagging or spitting

It clearly says unwanted.

But that is a misunderstanding of the conversation. The sexual acts in question were unwanted by women who had no inclination towards them. On the other hand, the people who had the inclination to engage in those sexual acts (in all of the examples in this thread as far as I can tell) did not have a want not to have those sexual inclinations.

In other words, the question of whether people should be allowed to seek clinical therapy for their unwanted sexual inclinations is not relevant to the matters that were being discussed in the thread.

You can't force people to stop thinking immoral thoughts.

You can force people into procedures or "treatments" that will reduce their inclination to engage in sexual activity. An extreme example is castration, a much less extreme is "chemical castration". In short: it is possible to give people drugs that will make them (much) less inclined to have sex, which would have an impact on their inclination to commit violent sexual crimes.
The matter is debatable for some criminals, but it would be excessive in most cases.

 

[Lion IRC]

It's not a misunderstanding of the conversation.
A person CAN simultaneously engage in behaviour they enjoy yet wish they could cure themselves of that same desire.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

It's not a misunderstanding of the conversation.
A person CAN simultaneously engage in behaviour they enjoy yet wish they could cure themselves of that same desire.

Sure, but it's still a misunderstanding of the conversation. Just take a look at the exchange. You said:

Pity the woke brigade has such a problem with the idea of conversion therapy, otherwise we could treat people for these kinds of abnormal unwanted sexual inclinations.

Now, when you said "we could treat people for these kinds of abnormal unwanted sexual inclinations", you were, indeed, assuming that the sexual inclinations were unwanted. Now, unwanted by whom? By the people who had them?

When you were told that those people did not have a want not to have those inclinations - i.e., that they were not unwanted - you replied:

....more than a third of UK women under the age of 40 have experienced unwanted slapping, choking, gagging or spitting

It clearly says unwanted.

That clearly misunderstands the exchange. Your reply only speaks about the wants of the women who do not have those inclinations, but the exchange was about whether the people that do have these inclinations and who seek others who want this sort of sex, not about those unwillingly on the end of the violent sexual inclinations of others.

No matter, now you make a relevant point, when you say

It's not a misunderstanding of the conversation.
A person CAN simultaneously engage in behaviour they enjoy yet wish they could cure themselves of that same desire.

That is true. However, if you take a look at the context of this thread, you will reckon (or should reckon) that the people we are talking about do not have that wish, nor do they consider their desires some sort of illness, malfunctioning, or whatever (and if they did, it does not follow they would want to be cured).

Evidence of that is the fact that they are not only engaging in that sort of sex, but they're actively seeking others who like that sort of sex too. If they wanted not to have that desire and considered it a sort of illness, they could go to forums of people who say it is and offer support, from Christian groups to all sorts of groups for "sex addicts" or whatever, or just do nothing, or ask a therapist, or at least express their discomfort with having those wishes. Observations indicates nothing of the sort, though.

 

[Lion IRC]

I said...
A person can simultaneously engage in behaviour they enjoy yet wish they could cure themselves of that same desire.

If you disagree with that, you should just say so. Less word count.

I think the case can be likewise made that there are many people who wish they COULD engage in certain types of behaviour they want to, but can't. And so they seek clinical therapy to help them do so. Bruce/Caitlin Jenner comes to mind. Trauma counselling for rape victims who suddenly find themselves with an aversion to heterosexual behaviour would be another example. They simultaneously dislike and yet want to like the same act.

I don't know why this phenomenon is hard for you to get your head around.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

A person can simultaneously engage in behaviour they enjoy yet wish they could cure themselves of that same desire.

I already said clearly that I agree. I said it twice in the very post I'm replying to.

If you disagree with that, you should just say so. Less word count.

But I said that I agree, twice in the very post you are replying to. I even made a case as to why this is not a significant factor in this context.

I don't know why this phenomenon is hard for you to get your head around.

I have no such difficulty of course. I said twice that it's true (it's obvious really). But instead of addressing my points, you just make stuff up about me. Granted, you do not do that deliberately. But you should read more carefully, or refrain from replying.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's not a misunderstanding of the conversation.
A person CAN simultaneously engage in behaviour they enjoy yet wish they could cure themselves of that same desire.

But they're not going to want to unless that desire is causing them harm in some fashion. Conversion therapy came about because of how society and especially religion treated gays. The real problem is that at best it creates a fucked-up straight, and usually it doesn't even do that.

 

[Lion IRC]

Have you never spanked a woman?

I'll ask the Mods (again) if interrogating my private life is On or Off topic.
In the meantime MYOFB

 

[ronburgundy]

As someone who does a lot of online dating, it feels like way more than 50%. I am not a kinky guy, and I have no desire for pain during sex, but the number of women who say they do on the compatibility questions is just crazy shocking. It makes it kind of intimidating: I don't want crazy S&M sex, but almost everyone I find otherwise interesting seems to be really into that kind of thing.

Yup. I have the same experience, and I'm pretty much the poster child for a millennial that has consumed way too much pornography from an early age. I've never had any desire to choke or hit someone during sex, but the amount of girls/women who are really into that was shocking.

Of course, it may seem like a lot because of the type of woman who is willing to fuck me tends to be the type who is into that.

I am not doubting your experience but I will offer up: A lot of women are insecure, especially about online dating. An insecure person will often profess to like something in order to be accepted or liked. Women are persons. They may not be into rough stuff but may think that's what guys insist upon these days, kind of like removing all pubic hair. A disturbing number of teenage boys don't realize that girls/women are supposed to like sex--and a disturbing number of girls don't either or think there's something wrong with them if they don't like (whatever) or aren't ready for penetration before they're even kissed or touched. And a disturbing number of teenagers believe that a girl owes sex to a guy if he buys her dinner or takes her to the movies or asks her.

I know you're not teenagers but consider what a woman who grew up with that kind of expectation might feel about guys who are doing online dating ?

The 50%+ number is consistent with studies done with large samples of online daters (reporting their preferences anonymously, not just as part of their profile) and with academic research using more general samples (not just online daters).

It isn't surprising. The brain doesn't have a "sexual arousal" network. It has a general arousal network, and arousal gets interpreted by the context. That's why even an intense fear experience can enhance sexual arousal in the right context.
Obviously, real pain would likely pull most women out of sexual arousal, but most "rough" sex acts don't rise to that level.

In addition, this University study of college students found that women reported reaching orgasm more quickly with rough sex, women who liked rough sex had sex more often, and there was no correlation between consensual rough sex and unwanted abuse in the relationship.

Note that in the OP study, not only did 31% of women say the engaged in this rough sex and it was "never unwanted", but even the 37% of women who had experience unwanted rough acts were not women who didn't ever enjoy rough sex. They were merely women who said that "at least some" (but not all) of the rough acts they experienced were unwanted. Then the final third of the sample were women who'd never experienced it, but may or may not have wanted to. So, that means it is likely of around 50% of women in that sample who sometimes want some forms of rough sex. At the same time, the 37% "unwanted" shows that some men are either engaging in types of rough acts that women don't like and/or not making sure their partner wants it before they try it.
Porn may not be giving unrealistic notions of women liking "rough sex" in general, so much as misrepresenting what types of rough sex they like and how to go about initiating it.

It would be useful for research to use less broad categories of "rough" sex to identify those things that many vs. few women enjoy.
For example, I wold predict that hair pulling and spanking are far more popular than "gagging" (using force on the back of a women's head during oral sex to the point where they are struggling to breathe and their eye's tear up).

 

[Gun Nut]

It's not a misunderstanding of the conversation.
A person CAN simultaneously engage in behaviour they enjoy yet wish they could cure themselves of that same desire.

Thank God we have Christians around to tell us what those things are... Like Homosexuality.. amiright.. amiright?

 

[steve_bank]

In a way sex is a violent act, male pentation of a woman.

In ou liberal culture if a man or woman likes to be beaten black and blue during a sexual encounter they are free to do so.

Violence related to relations between the sexes goes back to the early days of movies. Clark Gable and James Cagney rose as actors after scenes of abusing women. Women of the day sw it as strong men. They liked the tough guy characters. The woman objects, the man overcomes and dominates. A recurring theme in the first James Bond movies.

Personaly if somebody likes physical abuse rrelated to sex they should get counseling.

 

[steve_bank]

As we know now the so called upright Christian families were plagued with lysogeny and spousal abuse.

Today the renegade Mormon polygamists.

 

[Lion IRC]

It's not a misunderstanding of the conversation.
A person CAN simultaneously engage in behaviour they enjoy yet wish they could cure themselves of that same desire.

Thank God we have Christians around to tell us what those things are... Like Homosexuality.. amiright.. amiright?

Natural selection deserves some of the credit.

 

[repoman]

There has been a MASSIVE uptick of antiporn sentiment from the right in the past month. One theory is that this is deep state op to force Real ID for porn which will be used for everything and social dissent (like against bullshit pink/femme washing by corporate neoliberals) will be utterly crushed.

The dissident right will be even more fucked by Real ID requirements to access the internet. Psychopaths like Rachel McKinnon will control the debate as an example, because all opponents will be fired or have careers stunted.
Anyway, this is funny:

 

[Toni]

I am not doubting your experience but I will offer up: A lot of women are insecure, especially about online dating. An insecure person will often profess to like something in order to be accepted or liked. Women are persons. They may not be into rough stuff but may think that's what guys insist upon these days, kind of like removing all pubic hair. A disturbing number of teenage boys don't realize that girls/women are supposed to like sex--and a disturbing number of girls don't either or think there's something wrong with them if they don't like (whatever) or aren't ready for penetration before they're even kissed or touched. And a disturbing number of teenagers believe that a girl owes sex to a guy if he buys her dinner or takes her to the movies or asks her.

I know you're not teenagers but consider what a woman who grew up with that kind of expectation might feel about guys who are doing online dating ?

The 50%+ number is consistent with studies done with large samples of online daters (reporting their preferences anonymously, not just as part of their profile) and with academic research using more general samples (not just online daters).

It isn't surprising. The brain doesn't have a "sexual arousal" network. It has a general arousal network, and arousal gets interpreted by the context. That's why even an intense fear experience can enhance sexual arousal in the right context.
Obviously, real pain would likely pull most women out of sexual arousal, but most "rough" sex acts don't rise to that level.

In addition, this University study of college students found that women reported reaching orgasm more quickly with rough sex, women who liked rough sex had sex more often, and there was no correlation between consensual rough sex and unwanted abuse in the relationship.

Note that in the OP study, not only did 31% of women say the engaged in this rough sex and it was "never unwanted", but even the 37% of women who had experience unwanted rough acts were not women who didn't ever enjoy rough sex. They were merely women who said that "at least some" (but not all) of the rough acts they experienced were unwanted. Then the final third of the sample were women who'd never experienced it, but may or may not have wanted to. So, that means it is likely of around 50% of women in that sample who sometimes want some forms of rough sex. At the same time, the 37% "unwanted" shows that some men are either engaging in types of rough acts that women don't like and/or not making sure their partner wants it before they try it.
Porn may not be giving unrealistic notions of women liking "rough sex" in general, so much as misrepresenting what types of rough sex they like and how to go about initiating it.

It would be useful for research to use less broad categories of "rough" sex to identify those things that many vs. few women enjoy.
For example, I wold predict that hair pulling and spanking are far more popular than "gagging" (using force on the back of a women's head during oral sex to the point where they are struggling to breathe and their eye's tear up).

Ummmm It was a small sample but I would like to offer up that college guys aren't necessarily any good at sex. They are often impatient and self centered which does not make for a good sex partner. Also women tend to have better sex (more enjoyable for them) in context of a relationship rather than in random hook ups.

And those women who 'reached orgasm more quickly during rough sex' may have indeed reached orgasm more quickly. Or they may have faked orgasm more quickly in order to stop being hurt. And: a whole bunch of young women don't actually know what it is to orgasm.

 

[southernhybrid]

Ummmm It was a small sample but I would like to offer up that college guys aren't necessarily any good at sex. They are often impatient and self centered which does not make for a good sex partner. Also women tend to have better sex (more enjoyable for them) in context of a relationship rather than in random hook ups.

And those women who 'reached orgasm more quickly during rough sex' may have indeed reached orgasm more quickly. Or they may have faked orgasm more quickly in order to stop being hurt. And: a whole bunch of young women don't actually know what it is to orgasm.

I totally agree, although I do think that most women know when they have their first orgasm, since female orgasm is so exciting and intense. And, it's not just college men that tend to be bad lovers, it's most men that are only interested in casual sex who tend to be awful lovers. I have known women who enjoyed casual sex, but based on numerous conversations that I've had with other women, I don't think most of us like casual sex.

I had a lover for several months after my first marriage ended, who loved being a submissive. He totally enjoyed being dominated, so I obliged him. It was fun, although it was really his thing and not mine. How come we're not talking about men who like to be tied up and dominated by women? I don't think most people are into S/M or B/D, but as long as it's between two consensual, sane adults, it's none of my concern. Some people are kinky and others aren't.

I tend to think that young women today may still have a problem telling their partners what they want and what they don't like. Women need to be more assertive and direct about what type of sexual experiences they enjoy. Sometimes people like to role play but I doubt that more than a small percentage want to be physically hurt during sex. I remember some girlfriends I had in nursing school who said they would be happy if all they ever got from their husbands was oral sex because it was so much more enjoyable than intercourse. Intercourse can be painful for a woman. Most women enjoy long periods of foreplay. It's like the Pointer Sisters song, "Slow Hand Man". "I want a man with a gentle touch. One who takes his time and isn't in a heated rush". I think that's probably how the majority of women still feel. It's not like our biology has changed in the past 40 years.

Plus, females fantasize about all kinds of weird things that they would never, even want to actually experience. There were two books written in the 70s about female fantasies. All of the women who were interviewed for the books, said that they never wanted to live out these fantasies, but they enjoyed having them during sex, or while masturbating.

Anyway, it's good to see people discussing sex. It's a topic that I think people should be more open about discussing.