Voter ID = discrimination -- admitted

[dismal]

I suppose it's possible that sometimes perfectly reasonable and widely popular policies like showing an ID to vote help one party more than another.

This does not mean they are not perfectly reasonable and widely popular.

Why should the party in power be allowed under law to manipulate voter roles in their favor? Is there an impelling argument that this is good for society?

Requiring an ID to vote is just common sense. People from other countries who have joined the 21st century laugh when they hear people try to make it into a political issue here. Letting someone prove who they are with a utility bill is an absurdity.

Maybe the people too incompetent to get an ID may largely be Democrats but that is hardly a reason to jettison basic common sense.

Laws preventing felons and illegal immigrants from voting hurt Democrats too. That doesn't mean they aren't reasonable.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Why can't felons vote? Here in Canada, we have special ballots which let them vote from inside prison. Just because you broke a law doesn't mean you forfeit your citizenship.

#FelonsVotesMatter

 

[dismal]

Why can't felons vote? Here in Canada, we have special ballots which let them vote from inside prison. Just because you broke a law doesn't mean you forfeit your citizenship.

#FelonsVotesMatter

No one says you can't have felons vote. Heck, you can let Guatemalans and/or Minnesotans vote in Canadian elections if you want. I'm sure it would help one of the parties if they did.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Why can't felons vote? Here in Canada, we have special ballots which let them vote from inside prison. Just because you broke a law doesn't mean you forfeit your citizenship.

#FelonsVotesMatter

No one says you can't have felons vote. Heck, you can let Guatemalans and/or Minnesotans vote in Canadian elections if you want. I'm sure it would help one of the parties if they did.

But you made the implication that you found a restriction of felons voting to be a reasonable one. I'm curious why you find that to be reasonable.

 

[dismal]

No one says you can't have felons vote. Heck, you can let Guatemalans and/or Minnesotans vote in Canadian elections if you want. I'm sure it would help one of the parties if they did.

But you made the implication that you found a restriction of felons voting to be a reasonable one. I'm curious why you find that to be reasonable.

It's reasonable if we don't want felons voting because they have committed felonies.

 

[Bronzeage]

Why should the party in power be allowed under law to manipulate voter roles in their favor? Is there an impelling argument that this is good for society?

Requiring an ID to vote is just common sense. People from other countries who have joined the 21st century laugh when they hear people try to make it into a political issue here. Letting someone prove who they are with a utility bill is an absurdity.

Maybe the people too incompetent to get an ID may largely be Democrats but that is hardly a reason to jettison basic common sense.

Laws preventing felons and illegal immigrants from voting hurt Democrats too. That doesn't mean they aren't reasonable.

I have voted in every election since November of 1974, and I've shown an ID every time. It's always been a requirement in Louisiana.

That's not the issue.

The issue is, should we allow those in power to use that power to perpetuate their time in power? Instead of touting the virtues of requiring ID's which solve a problem which doesn't exist, why not recognize what is actually at stake. In the past 20 years, Republicans have followed a strategy at the state level of drawing voting districts to favor their party. The voter ID laws have one purpose and that is to reduce minority voters.

For all the pissmouthed blather I hear from conservatives about freedom and liberty, they have no problem letting go of some of that freedom and liberty in exchange for political power.

 

[marc]

And of course, there was this admission long ago

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/8GBAsFwPglw[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Why can't felons vote? Here in Canada, we have special ballots which let them vote from inside prison. Just because you broke a law doesn't mean you forfeit your citizenship.

#FelonsVotesMatter

The don't lose the citizenship, but they do lose some rights, such as the right to move beyond the prison (if they're imprisoned), or the right to go to some places or to leave the country (if they get out of prison under certain conditions), etc. They also might lose other rights (depending on the system), such as the right to work as a public officer for a certain number of years (even when they're no longer in prison), or the right to vote in some (or all) elections, etc.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

But you made the implication that you found a restriction of felons voting to be a reasonable one. I'm curious why you find that to be reasonable.

It's reasonable if we don't want felons voting because they have committed felonies.

I don't think the question is about means to ends rationality (or means-to-ends reasonableness, if there is such a thing), but about reasonableness in a moral sense.
For example, you might say might say that it's means-to-ends rational to executed people if they engage in apostasy, provided that you don't want apostates to live. But it's unreasonable (in realistic scenarios) to execute people for apostasy.
Now, I'm not suggesting the case is morally similar (it's not), but rather, using the example to illustrate what the question is about.

 

[Malintent]

are people who are unable to acquire a legitimate form of identification competent to vote? There already exists limitations on who is eligible to vote. Are the people that allegedly cannot identify themselves reasonably competent to vote? They can read news articles and watch televised debates to become educated on the issues and formulate a reasoned position and have an opinon, but can't make it to the DMV or some other State office to get a fucking ID card?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Well, not if you don't deliberately put a number of barriers in the way of those people getting an ID to go along with the requirement for an ID. However, there's a reason that the two things always go hand in hand. Voter ID requirements are about voter suppression for poor minorities and nothing more.

1) I'm against there being barriers in getting an ID
2) Most of us, including myself, have personally managed the harrowing process of getting an ID. This is why these sorts arguments generally fall flat among the sane.

Ask SimpleDon how hard it would be for him to get an ID. He's explained what it would take and it's considerable.

 

[Elixir]

Most of us, including myself, have personally managed the harrowing process of getting an ID. This is why these sorts arguments generally fall flat among the sane.

They fall flat because YOU are sane, and people who have difficulty getting ID because they are poor or ignorant are insane? No wonder you don't want them to vote!
Gee - I'm convinced!

 

[Malintent]

Most of us, including myself, have personally managed the harrowing process of getting an ID. This is why these sorts arguments generally fall flat among the sane.

They fall flat because YOU are sane, and people who have difficulty getting ID because they are poor or ignorant are insane? No wonder you don't want them to vote!
Gee - I'm convinced!

I would prefer if the insane were unable to vote.
I would prefer if the ignorant were unable to vote.

The poor should be able to vote, barring either of the above potentially contributing factors

How are the poor 'barred' from getting an acceptable ID? So far, in this thread, the only reason is that they don't have the time... which plays into the 'ignorant' camp... if they don't have time to get an ID then how can they have time to make an informed decision?

 

[marc]

They fall flat because YOU are sane, and people who have difficulty getting ID because they are poor or ignorant are insane? No wonder you don't want them to vote!
Gee - I'm convinced!

I would prefer if the insane were unable to vote.
I would prefer if the ignorant were unable to vote.

The poor should be able to vote, barring either of the above potentially contributing factors

How are the poor 'barred' from getting an acceptable ID? So far, in this thread, the only reason is that they don't have the time... which plays into the 'ignorant' camp... if they don't have time to get an ID then how can they have time to make an informed decision?

Perhaps you missed this post, among other:

Some seem to forget, or just want to ignore, how this works.

Wisconsin signs law requiring voter ID's. Then proceeds to close 10 DMV offices in Democratic leaning areas, while extending the hours of DMV's in Republican leaning areas. Some people also seem to forget not everyone has a car, and that some people have to work multiple jobs, so finding the time to get to an overburdened office to get an ID can be a big problem.

Oh, and state workers are discouraged from actually informing people about getting IDs or that they are free.

Being forced to choose between getting an ID and being able to pay the rent is not a problem of 'ignorance', among

 

[Elixir]

I would prefer if the insane were unable to vote.
I would prefer if the ignorant were unable to vote.

Of course that's your preference. Dollars to donuts you'd prefer to be the arbiter of who is insane and who is ignorant, too.
So would I - anyone who even considers voting for a flip-flopping orange-faced, ferret-wearing racist fraudster would be disqualified. But I am NOT the arbiter.
Good thing that doesn't matter, because there are too few such insane, insanely ignorant citizens in this country to elect such a buffoon.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How are the poor 'barred' from getting an acceptable ID? So far, in this thread, the only reason is that they don't have the time... which plays into the 'ignorant' camp... if they don't have time to get an ID then how can they have time to make an informed decision?

I don't know what thread you think you're reading because I've already brought up a case of one of our own members.

He's not ignorant, he's not stupid. He's also never going to have valid ID because it's not worth the major effort it would take for him to get it.

You're thinking it's just a matter of going down to the DMV and getting it. So long as you already have the paperwork of life, it is. For someone who doesn't, though, it's nowhere near as simple. DMV doesn't just hand you one without some proof of who you are--other ID or a birth certificate. You have nothing and want that birth certificate? Oops--you need ID to get it unless you're doing it in person.

And that's supposing it even exists. Elsewhere on the web I ran into a woman who wanted a passport--but couldn't get one. She had been a home birth/home "schooled"/parents never got a SS# and she can't prove who she is. (Some of these fundie-Christian abusive parents who think women are simply there to be wives.) She had escaped her upbringing but was still in catch-22 hell over the paperwork ramifications.

 

[Elixir]

How are the poor 'barred' from getting an acceptable ID? So far, in this thread, the only reason is that they don't have the time... which plays into the 'ignorant' camp... if they don't have time to get an ID then how can they have time to make an informed decision?

I don't know what thread you think you're reading because I've already brought up a case of one of our own members.

He's not ignorant, he's not stupid. He's also never going to have valid ID because it's not worth the major effort it would take for him to get it.

You're thinking it's just a matter of going down to the DMV and getting it. So long as you already have the paperwork of life, it is. For someone who doesn't, though, it's nowhere near as simple. DMV doesn't just hand you one without some proof of who you are--other ID or a birth certificate. You have nothing and want that birth certificate? Oops--you need ID to get it unless you're doing it in person.

And that's supposing it even exists. Elsewhere on the web I ran into a woman who wanted a passport--but couldn't get one. She had been a home birth/home "schooled"/parents never got a SS# and she can't prove who she is. (Some of these fundie-Christian abusive parents who think women are simply there to be wives.) She had escaped her upbringing but was still in catch-22 hell over the paperwork ramifications.

Back in the 60s - 70s it was fashionable in some circles to keep offspring 'dark' and off the record. (Jefferson Airplane even had a verse in a song about it) There are now many thousands of adult US citizens (by birth) who are in that same boat.

 

[Arctish]

This Is How Hard It Is To Get A Voter ID In Wisconsin

97-Year-Old Woman: Face of Voter Disenfranchisement in Arizona

The Challenge of Obtaining Voter Identification:

The 11 percent of eligible voters who lack the required photo ID must travel to a designated government office to obtain one. Yet many citizens will have trouble making this trip. In the 10 states with restrictive voter ID laws:
•Nearly 500,000 eligible voters do not have access to a vehicle and live more than 10 miles from the nearest state ID-issuing office open more than two days a week. Many of them live in rural areas with dwindling public transportation options.
•More than 10 million eligible voters live more than 10 miles from their nearest state ID-issuing office open more than two days a week.
•1.2 million eligible black voters and 500,000 eligible Hispanic voters live more than 10 miles from their nearest ID-issuing office open more than two days a week. People of color are more likely to be disenfranchised by these laws since they are less likely to have photo ID than the general population.
•Many ID-issuing offices maintain limited business hours. For example, the office in Sauk City, Wisconsin is open only on the fifth Wednesday of any month. But only four months in 2012 — February, May, August, and October — have five Wednesdays. In other states — Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, and Texas — many part-time ID-issuing offices are in the rural regions with the highest concentrations of people of color and people in poverty.

It's not so easy to get the proper ID when there was no birth certificate issued when you were born, or the nearest issuing office is too far away to walk and not on the public transportation system, or the ID you've used for years is deemed insufficient proof of your identity when you finally get a ride to the nearest issuing office, or the nearest issuing office only opens for a few short hours per month and you have a 9-5 job you can't afford to lose.

Fortunately, not everyone is ignoring the impact these laws and policies are having. After Alabama Enforces Voter ID, Shuts Down DMVs In Black Communities, Lawmaker Wants Investigation.

 

[Malintent]

I would prefer if the insane were unable to vote.
I would prefer if the ignorant were unable to vote.

Of course that's your preference. Dollars to donuts you'd prefer to be the arbiter of who is insane and who is ignorant, too.
So would I - anyone who even considers voting for a flip-flopping orange-faced, ferret-wearing racist fraudster would be disqualified. But I am NOT the arbiter.
Good thing that doesn't matter, because there are too few such insane, insanely ignorant citizens in this country to elect such a buffoon.

I think you are being sarcastic... but I am not sure. To be clear(er), I never said anything about being in a position to be the "arbiter" of sanity... there are professionals quite qualified to do so. I am not one of them.

I can have an opinion on how the insane should be handled without being competent in determining who, specifically, falls into that category. obviously.

 

[Malintent]

How are the poor 'barred' from getting an acceptable ID? So far, in this thread, the only reason is that they don't have the time... which plays into the 'ignorant' camp... if they don't have time to get an ID then how can they have time to make an informed decision?

I don't know what thread you think you're reading because I've already brought up a case of one of our own members.

He's not ignorant, he's not stupid. He's also never going to have valid ID because it's not worth the major effort it would take for him to get it.

You're thinking it's just a matter of going down to the DMV and getting it. So long as you already have the paperwork of life, it is. For someone who doesn't, though, it's nowhere near as simple. DMV doesn't just hand you one without some proof of who you are--other ID or a birth certificate. You have nothing and want that birth certificate? Oops--you need ID to get it unless you're doing it in person.

And that's supposing it even exists. Elsewhere on the web I ran into a woman who wanted a passport--but couldn't get one. She had been a home birth/home "schooled"/parents never got a SS# and she can't prove who she is. (Some of these fundie-Christian abusive parents who think women are simply there to be wives.) She had escaped her upbringing but was still in catch-22 hell over the paperwork ramifications.

Why do you believe it is harder for a poor person to have a valid birth certificate than a rich person?? Are you saying there are so many poor people that have babies outside of hospitals, never enroll them into school, never seek healthcare for them, never use them as a dependent to reduce their taxes (poor people try to pay MORE?)?

I don't believe that for a second.

Elsewhere on the web I ran into a woman...

Anecdotal irrelevance... Maybe she was one of those 'insane' ones that really should not be voting anyway. Maybe she is full of shit.