• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

*Warning: May contain nuts, Christians and/or both

Here's another analogy: Just like when a parent tells a child something they don't understand, it is important that the child listen to the parent and do what they say, even though they don't understand. Otherwise, the child, leaning fully on his own knowledge, would be drinking bleach and eating Tide pods.
When my parents talked to me, they talked and I listened. When I talk to my daughter, I talk and she listens. When god talks to me... well... it really isn't talking... but he communicates... okay... it really isn't that tangible, it is more of a feeling thing. Truly, I feel I have a connection with him... not something strong. I'm not like a cult person who talks to god directly, but in a passive sort of way, something comes through. And if things don't work out, I understand that it was their will to not intervene. Like when the entire state of Georgia went from jubilation to severe depression in the fourth quarter and overtime in Super Bowl LI. It isn't god wanted it to happen, much like the Supreme Court and gerrymandering... hands are tied behind his back.
 
I just want you guys to know that the water of salvation is free...

That is entirely untrue though. It is anything but free. You must completely and entirely and unquestionably commit to obedience and worship of God for all of your existence. If you don't, he will make you suffer for all of eternity.
Well, if the roughly 29% of humanity that claims this free gift, then it really isn't that costly for most. After all, most claimed Christians barely have a clue about their holy book. Huge numbers of them regularly ignore its dictates (even assuming that said persons can come up with what they are supposed to do/not do). I have evangelical in-laws, and they swear regularly, regularly slander people and display hate on social media, are war mongers, are gluttons, and most of the kids openly had sex before marriage. But oh, do they despise those 'gay' people. But sure it still costs them some wasted time on Sunday...

Anywho, on the "salvation is free - give it a try" thingy. How does one give something a try, if one has logically concluded it (the theology) is largely all made up? FWIW, I grew up mainstream Protestant. In college I switched to an evangelical/Bible church thinking it was more Bible based. After a dozen years, the cracks formed and grew. I still remember think of 1 Corinthians 10:13 "No testing has overtaken you that is not common to everyone. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tested beyond your strength, but with the testing he will also provide the way out so that you may be able to endure it." Yeah, that didn't work out... Sounds like telling a gay person to just try having straight sex again, it might change you.

I agree, in that verse, where he says he will not tempt anyone beyond there strength, that does sound like he will somehow save everyone, no matter what....but I think it is saying: you can and will be tempted, but there is ALWAYS a way out (will you take it?)

The verse before that one, 1 Corinthians 10:12 says
So the one who thinks he is standing firm should be careful not to fall.

Right there, the author conceeds that you CAN fall

Anyhow, if you are the believer who now doesn't believe and never will again - I guess that's sometimes how the cookie crumbles.

As it says in the The Parable of the Sower (this below is from Wikipedia)

In the story, a sower sows seed and does so indiscriminately. Some seed falls on the path (wayside) with no soil, some on rocky ground with little soil, and some on soil which contained thorns. In these cases the seed is taken away or fails to produce a crop, but when it falls on good soil it grows, yielding thirty, sixty, or a hundredfold.

Jesus then (only in the presence of his disciples) explains that the seed represents the Gospel (the sower being anyone who proclaims it), and the various soils represent people's responses to it (the first three representing rejection while the last represents acceptance).

______________________________

Anyhow, I don't know exactly what 'logic' has lead you to toss your Christian beliefs, and so I don't know if I or anyone can help get you back on that track, but let's see. What exactly sticks in your craw?

*Let me guess - all of it.

1I
 
New American Standard Bible
Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.

Yes, the water IS free. Once you except the salvation that Jesus provides, you will be forgiven from your past, present and future sins. And all you have to do is accept the salvation that has been provided. Just say yes, thank you, I accept. You don't have to go to Church, you don't have to walk old ladies across the street, or stop all those bad habits.

It does take humility though, to admit that there is a God that is not you, and to bow down to it. Kinda gotta kiss that self pride good bye.

If you can do that, you will next grow in love for others and yourself and God; you will naturally want to do these things. It seems a chore when you're headed in the wrong direction, but once you turn around, it will all be a sweet privilege. Life becomes sweet and there is no longer fear of death.

So cast all your doubts aside people. You don't need them. that 'logic' you were relying on is faulty.

For thousands of years they were waiting for this Messiah. Then one person came along and fulfilled all of them, including miracles, including claiming to be the Messiah, including talking and acting 100% percent as though he was the Messiah, and including being crucified. (try that one for shits and giggles). No, this preacher and teacher of what it means to love was not just pulling our legs.

This is why believers believe.

1I
 
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Once you except the salvation that Jesus provides,

But I do. That's exactly what I do.

So cast all your doubts aside people. You don't need them. that 'logic' you were relying on is faulty.
You say that, but with the scare quotes around logic, that's not a terribly compelling argument.
You haven't proven a fault in my logic.
You haven't shown that you even understand the logic behind my doubts, so you can't show it's faulty. You just dismiss it with a sneer.

Not a compelling argument, 1eye.

And you never did explain how you know it's my choice, when it's really god's, except when it's mine...
 
It does take humility though, to admit that there is a God that is not you, and to bow down to it. Kinda gotta kiss that self pride good bye.

Pride is not part of the picture. Even if I thought a God existed, that would not in any way compel me to bow down before it or consider it as having any moral superiority or authority over me or anyone else.

I find there to be compelling evidence that you exist. That Keith exists. That my neighbors exist. That my elected politicians exist. The fact that I believe you all exist does not automatically mean that I also think you have an ounce of moral authority over me, or that I must bow to any of you.

So we can do one and not the other. We can also believe that God exists, while still not ceding any moral superiority to God. We can believe that a God exists without bowing down to it or humbling ourselves to it. The Christian apologetics are flawed here when they are poisoning the atheist's wells.


As another analogy: Suppose that tomorrow we discover that alien life forms exist on the planet Kluprig in the Andromeda galaxy. We also learn that they created our own life here on Earth billions of years ago for the first time. That would be an amazing discovery, surely! Very interesting. Then later we find out that those aliens demand that we humble ourselves and bow down to them and consider themselves to be moral authorities over us. What you raise an eyebrow towards that? In what twisted nonsensical logic does it make sense to think that the mere fact such beings exist, and even if they created us, gives them moral authority over us?

If we discover tomorrow that an omnipotent, omniscient, immutable god exists, that also would be a tremendous discovery in the history of humankind! If that being then demanded that we bow down and worship itself, that should similarly get us to raise an eyebrow and say "What now?" Perhaps that god is the one with the humility problems in requiring that people obey and worship itself.
 
Like many scams, they say it doesn't cost anything, but it does.

The costs are hidden and come after one has converted. 10% of your income, plus special collections, plus political support, plus free labor, plus the risks to your children.
 
It does take humility though, to admit that there is a God that is not you, and to bow down to it. Kinda gotta kiss that self pride good bye.
What self-indulgent tripe this is!

1) tries to portray themselves as humble for believing in god (despite doing a very poor job defending it)
2) tries to insult the other person by suggesting they have a superiority complex and that is the reason they don't believe in god

I'm not a god... (not hard to say, and I'm not particularly humble for making the observation). Nature is what is in control and it'll seriously mess you up if you disrespect it too much.
If you can do that, you will next grow in love for others and yourself and God; you will naturally want to do these things. It seems a chore when you're headed in the wrong direction, but once you turn around, it will all be a sweet privilege. Life becomes sweet and there is no longer fear of death.
Yeah... a Christian that doesn't fear death. That seems to be about as common as bunnies that hand out chocolate.

So cast all your doubts aside people. You don't need them. that 'logic' you were relying on is faulty.
Doubt is what helps protect us from the unknown, faith embraces the unknown at one's own peril.

For thousands of years they were waiting for this Messiah.
...and they couldn't take a hint.
 
Well, if the roughly 29% of humanity that claims this free gift, then it really isn't that costly for most. After all, most claimed Christians barely have a clue about their holy book. Huge numbers of them regularly ignore its dictates (even assuming that said persons can come up with what they are supposed to do/not do). I have evangelical in-laws, and they swear regularly, regularly slander people and display hate on social media, are war mongers, are gluttons, and most of the kids openly had sex before marriage. But oh, do they despise those 'gay' people. But sure it still costs them some wasted time on Sunday...

Anywho, on the "salvation is free - give it a try" thingy. How does one give something a try, if one has logically concluded it (the theology) is largely all made up? FWIW, I grew up mainstream Protestant. In college I switched to an evangelical/Bible church thinking it was more Bible based. After a dozen years, the cracks formed and grew. I still remember think of 1 Corinthians 10:13 "No testing has overtaken you that is not common to everyone. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tested beyond your strength, but with the testing he will also provide the way out so that you may be able to endure it." Yeah, that didn't work out... Sounds like telling a gay person to just try having straight sex again, it might change you.

I agree, in that verse, where he says he will not tempt anyone beyond there strength, that does sound like he will somehow save everyone, no matter what....but I think it is saying: you can and will be tempted, but there is ALWAYS a way out (will you take it?)

The verse before that one, 1 Corinthians 10:12 says
So the one who thinks he is standing firm should be careful not to fall.

Right there, the author conceeds that you CAN fall

Anyhow, if you are the believer who now doesn't believe and never will again - I guess that's sometimes how the cookie crumbles.

As it says in the The Parable of the Sower (this below is from Wikipedia)

In the story, a sower sows seed and does so indiscriminately. Some seed falls on the path (wayside) with no soil, some on rocky ground with little soil, and some on soil which contained thorns. In these cases the seed is taken away or fails to produce a crop, but when it falls on good soil it grows, yielding thirty, sixty, or a hundredfold.

Jesus then (only in the presence of his disciples) explains that the seed represents the Gospel (the sower being anyone who proclaims it), and the various soils represent people's responses to it (the first three representing rejection while the last represents acceptance).

______________________________

Anyhow, I don't know exactly what 'logic' has lead you to toss your Christian beliefs, and so I don't know if I or anyone can help get you back on that track, but let's see. What exactly sticks in your craw?

*Let me guess - all of it.

1I

Well, here is a background summary, and then a summary of what sticks in my craw...
Not really. There are people who say that they are saved because they do good things; others because they are not as bad as they could be; others because they go to church and got dunked in the water. There are other explanations for why people say they have faith. The Bible tells us that God protects those who actually have faith - as He is the one who gave them that faith - and that He will not let them fall from faith. So, the question here is why you thought you had faith. Maybe it was because someone got you to say some prayer and then told you that you were saved. What's the truth here?

The truth here is that I grew up mainstream Protestant, joined the church in 8th grade. I was the youth leader for our youth group for about 1.5 years (the adults were still really in charge…). By the time I finished HS, I had read thru the Protestant Bible. In my college years I switched over to an independent Bible church as my mainstream church was ignoring the Bible more and more IMPOV. I spent a dozen years in a couple independent Bible churches, partly switching due to moving after graduating from college. I felt I was saved by Christ’s grace and did not doubt for my future or my faith. I felt I had God's presence in my life. I did Bible study, even outside of Sunday morning. One of the longer studies utilized The Footsteps of the Messiah: A Study of the Sequence of Prophetic Events by Dr. Fruchtenbaum. I regularly attended church, participated in small devotion groups, spent time in prayer, donated time to help others, volunteered frequently at the church, and tithed to my churches. My faith wasn’t just an undigested bit of beef.

One irony is that the seed that started forming cracks in my serene God-fantasy was a Christian video (watched in a Bible study group) that claimed that there was scientific backing for the Deluge. I wanted to know more than the video offered, so I would be able to explain it to others if there was an opportunity. Well the video was backed not by facts and science, but with obfuscation, misdirection, and essentially lies. That left me taken aback to read lies from Christians. I ignored that for a while, but every time the preacher would bring up some of the grand miracles from the OT, I couldn’t help but think of some of the information I had reviewed. Eventually, I decided I needed to figure out more about the grand miracles and how they could or couldn’t work. So I spent about the next 2 years reading, praying, and getting more and more frustrated as my faith felt like it was under attack. I spent some time talking with a local Bible college professor that I knew, and he provided some of the apologetics for my reading. In those 2 years I read a dozen or so books of apologetics from CS Lewis to the dolt Josh McDowell, other books like Eusebuis’ History of the Church, some of the Nag Hammadi Library, John Romer’s Testament, several book on Sumerian and Egyptian archeology, and others I have forgotten. Anywho, I don’t think my general story is all that unique here on this board, as there are even ex-preachers on the board. I still remember reflecting on 1 Cor 10:13 “No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.”…well that didn’t work out so well.


Here is a short synopsis of my reasoning.

*The Jewish faith is built upon mounds and mounds of BS and purported violence.
- There was never anything even close to the Noah Deluge fable
- The Tower of Babel fable...is well babel BS
- Moshe and his Exodus fable is at least 99.9% BS
- The whole conquering of Canaan is largely made up
- There was never any day the Earth stood still for Joshua
- The sun wasn’t set back 10 degrees for Hezekiah
- Lots of stupid and/or barbaric Laws

* The NT doesn’t get it much better
- I find it fascinating that the later the Gospel was written, the more fantastic the story unfolds. And, but for Mark, all were most probably written after the sacking of Jerusalem.
- The purported Jesus believes in his Jewish roots, thereby adopting all the above BS
- The virgin birth narrative is built upon a poor reading of the Tanakh
- The whole birthing narrative between Luke and Matthew is a jumbled and conflicting mess
- The Gospel writers can’t even falsify a proper House of David lineage
- The Gospel writers turned the Pilot into a pansy Roman officer, yet Rome recalled him for brutality
- The Trinity construct is a convoluted/nonsensical mess
- Later Christians didn't like the ending of Mark so they conspired to commit forgery and added a more pleasing ending
- Scholars know of at least one instance where a Gospel verse was adjusted, to make the trinity more definitive
- Even Later Christians didn’t like that Josephus left the Jesus-god out of his writings, so they forged in a cute paragraph
- There is ZERO written about Jesus from anyone that was his contemporary* and had a chance to meet him, outside of the True Believers hell bent of creating a new religion.
- Considering all the Jesus-miracles claimed, one would think he would have gotten a serious and large following within Israel. Yet that is where the new religion seemed to fair the poorest, instead growing in distant Egypt, Asia Minor, Greece and Rome.

*contemporary – look up in dictionary if one is unsure of its real meaning

Then there are many weird verses like this:
Matthew 5:17-19 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven,". Paul argues directly against this several times in order to make sure Gentiles can be brought into the fold while ignoring the law.

It is the totality of these things, and many other more minor details, that I find not logical nor rational. From looking at the whole picture, I find little to be compelling, and much repulsive, within broadly defined Christian theology. I find the whole “I want to live forever” fantasy to be an odd reason to suspend otherwise rational conclusions, just in the hopes that religion X will reincarnate me after I die. Add in the propensity for people to delude themselves into believing all sorts of shit, religious (LDS) or otherwise (UFOs), and it is not surprising that humanity has put tens of thousands of gods upon pedestals.

Seems like it prefers to play hide-and-seek more than anything else.
What do you have against "hide-and-seek"?

Some truth is elusive. Or "Truth" -- with a capital "T" -- maybe the truth that presents to us the possibility of eternal life is partly elusive.

But there's still the plain or simple part. Jesus showed us his power, in the healing miracles. With such power (including resurrection) he could put us into Heaven, to say it simply. That's not really hide-and-seek, because what he did was in plain sight and was straightforward.
Except of course we don’t have any plain or simple Jesus part, as it came later from anonymous writers, written decades after purported events, and humanity has only been able to find nearly whole copies from 2-3 centuries later, depending on the book. Your idea of not “hide-n-seek” is closer to Bill’s “I didn’t have sex with that woman”, as evidently he thought blow jobs didn’t count. A god not playing hide-n-seek, might have nudged Pontius Pilate, to write back to Rome commenting on having to execute a crazy Jew who claimed to be their King; and then god could have protected it within the Roman archives. A god not playing hide-n-seek, could have inspired one of the first dozen disciples to sit down and write a Gospel in the 30’s, within a few years of God’s death/resurrection. God could have nudged them to send copies outward, to initiate a historical record.

Hide-n-seek is fine as an intentional game among people. Hide-n-seek pisses me off when someone/company plays it to avoid dealing with a product problem. Hide-n-seek would really suck, if I got this while trying to buy a house. And if a purported god thinks Hide-n-seek is reasonable, when it is putting death on the line, well….fuck it/him/her.
 
Well, here is a background summary, and then a summary of what sticks in my craw...

Much of the same stuff gets in the way of any belief from me, as well, although both my background and my reaction are more muted. I never did believe that the god story made sense, though I was raised as a catholic and attended CCD. It was all just nonsense. Later in life, when I saw people believing it (like when I was about 30yo and saw my first creationist,) I became fascinated with HOW people could decide to believe such obvious tripe, such lies and falsehoods. I’ve been fascinated ever since. It’s astonishing what they (you) decide to not-see. I’ve done a lot of reading and research, and unlike funinspace’s “fuck you” reaction, mine is just, “meh, dumb story, obviously made up tales.”

One can’t read the whole bible and just decide to declare it true, because it’s just too dumb. The hyperbole and the fabrications and the nonsense.

I simply cannot summon even a flicker of belief for something so not-believable.
Not going to waste my one life being a slave to a cult that doesn’t even produce better-behaved members than random.
 
Well, here is a background summary, and then a summary of what sticks in my craw...

Much of the same stuff gets in the way of any belief from me, as well, although both my background and my reaction are more muted. I never did believe that the god story made sense, though I was raised as a catholic and attended CCD. It was all just nonsense. Later in life, when I saw people believing it (like when I was about 30yo and saw my first creationist,) I became fascinated with HOW people could decide to believe such obvious tripe, such lies and falsehoods. I’ve been fascinated ever since. It’s astonishing what they (you) decide to not-see. I’ve done a lot of reading and research, and unlike funinspace’s “fuck you” reaction, mine is just, “meh, dumb story, obviously made up tales.”

One can’t read the whole bible and just decide to declare it true, because it’s just too dumb. The hyperbole and the fabrications and the nonsense.

I simply cannot summon even a flicker of belief for something so not-believable.
Not going to waste my one life being a slave to a cult that doesn’t even produce better-behaved members than random.
The post I quoted of myself was an exchange with Lumpenproletariat and his ever changing goal posts and obfuscation. Just to clarify, my "fuck you" reaction is to the notion that if there is a god that created everything; and if this said god played hid-n-seek and changed historical evidence to obfuscate information that would otherwise corroborate its god-breathed holy book it left us humans, I would find that quite disgusting (aka "fuck you") when life and death would in theory be on the line.

My reaction to the idea of the typical Protestant Christian theological construct, is about the same as yours.
 
Hey gang,

Just reading through the latest. Thank you all for your posts, especially Funinspace for detailing what it was that initially gave you doubts, what stuck in your craw, and the list of inconsistencies that you have found.

Much food for thought from all of you. I don't really know where to start, and I don't have the time this moment to do so, but I've read it and will be mulling it. I also plan to get back to some posts from way back that I never did justice in responding too.

That includes Keith and Co. I need to take the time to go back and look again at your logic, as well as the others. To dismiss all your 'logic' as faulty was a lazy comment on my part. But I assure you, I'm not doing it with a sneer.

Thank you
 
Seems like a slip-of-the-tongue at most, not anything to hold over 1ICrying's head. It seems he has charitable intentions and we should behave with the same.
 
Seems like a slip-of-the-tongue at most, not anything to hold over 1ICrying's head. It seems he has charitable intentions and we should behave with the same.
Brian, love ya, and I promise, the next time, the very next time I ask you how I can improve my posting to match your goals and intentions, I will pay quite a lot of attention to your guidance.

But right now, in the middle of his sort-of-apology, he repeated the exact thing I pointed out as problematic, sucking all the sincerity out of his charitable intentions.
 
Do you think 1ICrying is acting with charitable intentions?



Even if the phrasing in that post did not convey that, would you say that he has charitable intentions and is not articulating them well enough, or would you rate his intentions as more hostile and antagonistic? Something else?
 
Do you think 1ICrying is acting with charitable intentions?



Even if the phrasing in that post did not convey that, would you say that he has charitable intentions and is not articulating them well enough, or would you rate his intentions as more hostile and antagonistic? Something else?

I'm not Mr.&co. but I see 1I not as being charitable but condescending. I see nothing in his posts that indicates he is attempting to discuss his views with equals but rather preaching to those he sees as ignorant heathens who are incapable of understanding the Bible without his guidance. Maybe he sees it as being charitable, 'softly' saving the heathens' souls ... sorta a "white man's burden" attitude.
 
Do you think 1ICrying is acting with charitable intentions?
No, I really don't.
It's all about 1eye. 1eye's time, 1eye's beliefs, 1eye's dismissal of anything counter to his narrative, 1eye's point of view. If we don't accept his message, it's on us, our failure, not his or his skybeast's. Lots of rather important questions left unanswered despite stated intentions to catch up later.

No, I think like a career officer getting one tour in combat, 1eye wants his ticket punched for having spent time among the heathens, but he's not really interested in putting any actual effort into the whole thing.
 
Hey gang,

Just reading through the latest. Thank you all for your posts, especially Funinspace for detailing what it was that initially gave you doubts, what stuck in your craw, and the list of inconsistencies that you have found.

Much food for thought from all of you. I don't really know where to start, and I don't have the time this moment to do so, but I've read it and will be mulling it. I also plan to get back to some posts from way back that I never did justice in responding too.
FWIW, I don't need anyone to get me 'back on (the Christian) track' or help. You asked and so I provided some details. Just consider that if you do try to parse the details of what I posted, it is the totality that is important not a detail here or there. For example the divergent birthing narratives between Luke and Matthew, I've read the verbal gymnastics working to harmonize them. I'm not impressed with such attempts, nor are some very well learned Christian theologians who agree that they conflict with each other.
 
I agree that 1eye does not appear to be charitable in that he has absolutely NO willingness to learn from us beyond how to sell to us.

1eye, you forget we’ve been studying this far longer and with more rigor than you. You’ve said ZERO that is novel or new. You’re just one more kid repeating what he’s been preached without thinking about it deeply. And you think that because you believe your answer that it’s a wise and well supported argument, but it isn’t. It’s shallow and poorly crafted, which is why we don’t find it convincing.

This ain’t the first rodeo. You do realize we’ve already argued every one of your points in very detailed conversations before, right? We’re not stupid and ignorant, 1eye, we think things through.
 
Giddy fundamentalism with a heavy dose of preachy passive-aggressive bipolarism.

Not seeing people as individuals but as objects in his machinations, sociopathy.

I'm right because it feels soooooooooo good.

Did I miss anything?
 
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