*Warning: May contain nuts, Christians and/or both

[Jimmy Higgins]

So why bother at all?

You mean other than self-indulgent pride?

 

[abaddon]

So why bother at all?

I think the question is, why should atheists bother at all?

It presumes the point of posting is to help theists... Why does anyone presume that?

Reasons to post include: Boredom. To practice at arguing. To enjoy arguing. To see if brainwashed people just might show a flicker of light in their minds. To figure out what it's like being a more-or-less modern person stuck inside an ancient mythology. To express a little.

Mostly for my benefit, frankly. And I think that's as it should be: let the atheists come and post as they will, for their own reasons. IMV it'd be a mistake to treat the discussions like they're for deconverting theists. If that's someone else's interest, then go for it. But they don't need to issue instructions to others about how to serve their personal interest.

When I learn something or see another atheist learning or any atheist wanting to express something, that is when I see some actual value in this place. The theists can be useful that way.

 

[Brian63]

If anyone has about 30 minutes to spare, there is also this really good speech from back in 2010:

Phil Plait's "Don't be a dick"

 

[southernhybrid]

So why bother at all?

You mean other than self-indulgent pride?

For fun!

I don't bother Christians irl. I have many wonderful Christian friends who never try to change me and I never try to change them. But, when someone comes here to preach to the atheists, they are asking to play hard ball, imo. I try not to be too harsh, but sometimes it's difficult to not let them have it when they say so many nonsensical things. If they just asked us why we don't believe or what made us become atheists, that's one thing. When they come here with this superior attitude that they have found some special being who promises to give them eternal life while the rest of us will suffer eternal death, I don't think we need to hold back.

But, shouldn't we be having this particular discussion somewhere else? Compared to the political forum, I don't think anyone here has been that harsh at all. I can't be a dick because luckily I lack that particular body part.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So why bother at all?

You mean other than self-indulgent pride?

For fun!

I don't bother Christians irl. I have many wonderful Christian friends who never try to change me and I never try to change them. But, when someone comes here to preach to the atheists, they are asking to play hard ball, imo. I try not to be too harsh, but sometimes it's difficult to not let them have it when they say so many nonsensical things. If they just asked us why we don't believe or what made us become atheists, that's one thing. When they come here with this superior attitude that they have found some special being who promises to give them eternal life while the rest of us will suffer eternal death, I don't think we need to hold back.

I had thoughts about this at the Cancer Center where there were a couple of people (family of patients, not patients themselves... they can wear whatever they want!) wearing "All you need is God" shirts. I'm obviously not going to "start something" in a Cancer Center. But... in my head I'm thinking who in the heck do you think you kidding? You are in a hospital, clearly you need more than God, otherwise you'd be in a church! So what is your point in wearing the shirt... to prove to strangers that you still believe despite learning the terrible sickness of a loved one? Or that you think other people's coping mechanisms aren't adequate? Maybe need to change the shirt to "All I need is God".

So we are left with some that are trying to save people either online or in real life, but ultimately, they are lying to themselves one way or the other. For 1L, lying to themselves about having any control in saving others. For the person in the hospital... lying to themselves that all they need is God.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I can't be a dick because luckily I lack that particular body part.

Oh, having one is not necessary to being one. I knew one guy that lost his in a shooting accident, and counter-intuitively he became MORE of one during the period he was without, before reconstructive surgery.

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

I can't be a dick because luckily I lack that particular body part.

Oh, having one is not necessary to being one. I knew one guy that lost his in a shooting accident, and counter-intuitively he became MORE of one during the period he was without, before reconstructive surgery.

You actually know someone who had his dick shot off. That’s priceless.

 

[bilby]

I can't be a dick because luckily I lack that particular body part.

Oh, having one is not necessary to being one. I knew one guy that lost his in a shooting accident, and counter-intuitively he became MORE of one during the period he was without, before reconstructive surgery.

You actually know someone who had his dick shot off. That’s priceless.

It's a surprisingly common injury; People see action heroes in the movies tucking a pistol into their waistband when they don't have a holster, and they don't stop to think about just how poor an idea that is in real life.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I can't be a dick because luckily I lack that particular body part.

Oh, having one is not necessary to being one. I knew one guy that lost his in a shooting accident, and counter-intuitively he became MORE of one during the period he was without, before reconstructive surgery.

You actually know someone who had his dick shot off. That’s priceless.

MAY have been self inflicted. There was alcohol involved. Bowling team barbecue in a house with three 'responsible gun owners.' The hospital contacted the command, lots of rumors, no arrests, no one talking. I suspect a 'hey watch this' moment.

My biggest regret was that he was NOT named Richard. Because then we would have been able to call him "Hey DICKless" three times a day.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I can't be a dick because luckily I lack that particular body part.

Oh, having one is not necessary to being one. I knew one guy that lost his in a shooting accident, and counter-intuitively he became MORE of one during the period he was without, before reconstructive surgery.

You actually know someone who had his dick shot off. That’s priceless.

Of course he does, he's Keith&Co. If he said he spilled marinara sauce on the Pope, I'd have no reason to no believe him.

 

[Keith&Co.]

You actually know someone who had his dick shot off. That’s priceless.

Of course he does, he's Keith&Co. If he said he spilled marinara sauce on the Pope, I'd have no reason to no believe him.

I SNEEZED, OKAY?!!?

 

[1ICrying]

Because I can only masturbate so many times each day...

Ha ha.

 

[1ICrying]

Also note that even though I think their goal to save us from hell is noble, I strongly disagree with their method. It is really God they should be spending their time and effort making appeals to, since God would be the ultimate and final say in who goes to heaven or hell.

Thank you Brian, and that is what I was trying to say - in the end "It is God who has the final say". And then I said, I would pray for you.

When it comes to determinism vs free will, I think there is a hybrid of the two going on. None of us can help but to be in this chat room based on our life experiences (those were determined) but then we do have some free will along the way. We do have choices. I am here to try and make you see it MY way, because my religion inspires me to, and you are trying to make me see it your way, as your belief inspires you to.

The Bible says it is by the Grace of God that people are either believers are not. So, that sounds like we have no choice. But, right now, we all have the chance before we die, to decide which side we are on (led Zep style). And in that time, I am trying to help you decide to be on the believer's side, and vice versa. We'll see if either side was convincing.


The Bible also says, Sohy, that some people will believe, but then they will fall away from the faith (like you) I don't think that this is proof against the religion. I am not surprised that God didn't bend down to talk to you personally just because you waited 15 years. As I said before, God hasn't talked to me either. However, I will say that every day, I have a-ha moments of learning, and/or little funny coincidences, that show me that God is near. And when I read the Bible - I also feel that the words are from Jesus/God.

Anyhow, I don't think He has abandoned you. Maybe God is using me now to get you back on the Christian side.

You too Keith and Co,. despite your rudeness here on the thread.


Peace

1I


ps: If I haven't replied to your every post, please remember that there are 10 of you and one of I; plus I have a day job

 

[Keith&Co.]

The Bible says it is by the Grace of God that people are either believers are not. So, that sounds like we have no choice.

Yes, it really does. Also, that's what YOU said.

But, right now, we all have the chance before we die, to decide which side we are on

Okay, typically, after people say 'but,' they follow with evidence or an argument for why the previous conclusion was wrong.
They don't just ignore it and say something diametrically opposed to it as a matter of fact.

So, like, IF it's up to God's choice, then what choice do I have?

Maybe God is using me now to get you back on the Christian side.

You too Keith and Co,. despite your rudeness here on the thread.

Doubtful.
I can't see God thinking I'd be swayed by such condescension and pride as displayed by you.
Plus, His book says not to call people fools, that doing so will keep you from the Kingdom of Heaven.
I can't really believe that someone who's going to Hell was sent to save me for Heaven.

 

[Brian63]

Right now, it is before my death, and I decide to go to heaven and not to hell. God has the final say in where I end up though. I have made my intentions and decision clear. If I do end up in hell, it will be because that was God's choice, not mine. He overruled my own decision.

 

[southernhybrid]

Anyhow, I don't think He has abandoned you. Maybe God is using me now to get you back on the Christian side.

Well, as we say in the south, bless your heart 1I. I was once told by a former president of American Atheists, that I can freely use that expression because it has more to do with southern culture than religion. I know you think you mean well, but you believe what you do because of confirmation bias. You look at the words of the Bible and you like what you see, so you believe it. The parts that confuse you or don't make sense, you just imagine that one day your god will explain his harsh actions to you in some imagined afterlife. Perhaps you feel happy being around other Christians so your bias allows you to find things in your religion that seem true to you. Most people who are religious, regardless of the religion, are guided by their own personal experiences, wishes and emotions.

Unlike many of my atheist friends, I don't necessarily find religion to be a bad thing, unless it's used to divide people, to deny science or to promote one's personal beliefs into the government. Apparently, as the late Joseph Campbell claimed, myth is a very powerful thing. So, my suggestion to you is instead of trying to change what other people believe, use your beliefs to better your community. Cherry pick the more positive things in the Gospels and try to live by those examples.

The late Issac Asimov, and I'm paraphrasing, said something along the lines that if he were to believe in a god, it would be one that judged people by their character and not by their beliefs. I'm incapable of believing in a god. The natural world is all that we have and it's wondrous, exciting and satisfying, despite the horrible things that humans ofter do. But, if I needed a god in my life and was capable of believing, I would also find one that was much kinder, and less judgmental that the god of the Bible.

 

[Brian63]

ps: If I haven't replied to your every post, please remember that there are 10 of you and one of I; plus I have a day job

Isn't doing everything you can to help save people from hell more important than your day job?

To borrow from an earlier analogy, if you are on your way to work and see an inattentive pedestrian about to get hit by an inattentive car driver, wouldn't you do everything in your ability to stop that collision from occurring, even if it meant getting to work a few minutes later and not getting all your daily job done?

When the stakes are even infinitely higher, why would you prioritize your daily job over preventing people from suffering for all of eternity?

It seems that an omnipotent God could, if it really wanted to, take care of your own personal needs so that you would not have to devote any time to them, and you could instead focus all of your resources on saving people from hell.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Thank you Brian, and that is what I was trying to say - in the end "It is God who has the final say". And then I said, I would pray for you.

Yeah, prayer leads to the next issue with God.

The Bible says it is by the Grace of God that people are either believers are not. So, that sounds like we have no choice.

It more than just "sounds" like it.

But, right now, we all have the chance before we die, to decide which side we are on (led Zep style). And in that time, I am trying to help you decide to be on the believer's side, and vice versa. We'll see if either side was convincing.

The Bible says we don't have a choice, but we can choose whether to believe or not. That sounds more like wishful thinking.

The Bible also says, Sohy, that some people will believe, but then they will fall away from the faith (like you) I don't think that this is proof against the religion.

Cults say that too!

I am not surprised that God didn't bend down to talk to you personally just because you waited 15 years. As I said before, God hasn't talked to me either. However, I will say that every day, I have a-ha moments of learning, and/or little funny coincidences, that show me that God is near. And when I read the Bible - I also feel that the words are from Jesus/God.

Anyhow, I don't think He has abandoned you. Maybe God is using me now to get you back on the Christian side.

Arrogance much?

 

[Brian63]

As a minor aside, I would like to address this other comment:

...I don't necessarily find religion to be a bad thing, unless it's used to divide people, to deny science or to promote one's personal beliefs into the government.

Earlier though, this different comment was expressed:

I have many wonderful Christian friends who never try to change me and I never try to change them.

Those are 2 conflicting sentiments though, with different implications. Suppose a Christian friend was not openly trying to change me, but that same Christian friend was also trying to promote their beliefs into the government. So it does meet that 3rd criteria above of religion being a "bad thing," but then according to the 2nd rule I still would never try to change them, because they are not trying to change me, at least in a very public and open manner (though they may be trying via more disguised means).

The intentions and motives are noble of wanting to help people, but this outdated, passive posture of "I only care about the beliefs of other people when they try to impose them on me" is very shortsighted and allows room for a lot of bad beliefs to impact us, just in a more under-the-radar fashion. It is a discussion we had extensively discussed in a different thread recently, and it will never evaporate like it needs to, but I feel compelled often to address it because that attitude just is not going to help us enough.

When people across the dinner table espouse bad beliefs and bad justifications for those beliefs, we need to be willing to criticize them at the outset. Not just wait until those beliefs potentially transform into laws and then we hold rallies to protest them, and often fail. Start criticizing the bad beliefs earlier, before they have even more time to germinate and spread.

 

[southernhybrid]

As a minor aside, I would like to address this other comment:

...I don't necessarily find religion to be a bad thing, unless it's used to divide people, to deny science or to promote one's personal beliefs into the government.

Earlier though, this different comment was expressed:

I have many wonderful Christian friends who never try to change me and I never try to change them.

Those are 2 conflicting sentiments though, with different implications. Suppose a Christian friend was not openly trying to change me, but that same Christian friend was also trying to promote their beliefs into the government. So it does meet that 3rd criteria above of religion being a "bad thing," but then according to the 2nd rule I still would never try to change them, because they are not trying to change me, at least in a very public and open manner (though they may be trying via more disguised means).

The intentions and motives are noble of wanting to help people, but this outdated, passive posture of "I only care about the beliefs of other people when they try to impose them on me" is very shortsighted and allows room for a lot of bad beliefs to impact us, just in a more under-the-radar fashion. It is a discussion we had extensively discussed in a different thread recently, and it will never evaporate like it needs to, but I feel compelled often to address it because that attitude just is not going to help us enough.

When people across the dinner table espouse bad beliefs and bad justifications for those beliefs, we need to be willing to criticize them at the outset. Not just wait until those beliefs potentially transform into laws and then we hold rallies to protest them, and often fail. Start criticizing the bad beliefs earlier, before they have even more time to germinate and spread.

Regarding the comment that you linked, did you miss the part where I said sometimes it was fun to argue? I've argued for fun many times, knowing full well that it's very doubtful that I'm going to change someone else's mind or opinion. If someone is honestly seeking, then it can be worth trying to convince them. If someone is obviously convinced that they are right, the only reason I might argue with them is for fun. Debating can be fun, even when you know neither side is going to change. There is always the small possibility that a person who is seeking for change might benefit from reading an argument between a Christian and an atheist. But, that's rare. I like to argue politics too, but so far, I've not convinced anyone that I'm right and they are wrong. Sometimes you just need to let someone know that there is another point of view. That is why I've never hidden my atheism, and have no problem standing up to Christians who are obnoxious.

All of my Christian friends are Democrats who support the separation of church and state. Even my mother, before she was overcome by dementia, strongly supported the SCS, and she is an evangelical. She and I had far more in common than we did differences.

All of my Christian friends know that I'm an atheist, and yet, they only judge me by my character, as it should be. I also see them as good people, who for some reason find strength, community etc. from their religions. Perhaps, some believe because that's what they were taught to believe, so their beliefs are maintained out of tradition and culture. So, I strongly disagree with your assumptions. I do have atheist friends who think like you do, and it's fine for friends to disagree and still be friends. So no. I am not going to judge my Christian friends or try to convince them they are wrong, unless they want to get into a discussion with me about why we have such different beliefs.

Believe me when I say that I have been confronted by the more unpleasant variety of Christian, the ones who judge me harshly, the ones with closed minds who think only they have found the truth. I have stood up to these people, but not one time have I ever been able to convince them that they are wrong. I only have one casual friend who is deeply brainwashed by her faith. We aren't very close but as we are both nurses ( I'm retired. She's still working ) we have a lot of respect for each other for the things that we do/have done for others. We never discuss religion or politics out of respect for each other. What would be the point? I'm not going to change her mind. Her mind is made up. It would only make her feel bad, and she already has so many problems in her life, it would be cruel for me to add one more. I'm not sure you understand why some people need religion.

And, since I don't believe in freewill, I realize that all of my Christian friends believe what they do because they have been influenced both genetically and environmentally to accept these things. It's possible that something might happen in their lives that will make them see things differently. For example, we had neighbor who was very religious. His young son died during a short illness. He immediately lost his faith and became an atheist. But, even tragedies like losing a child, aren't always enough to make a believer change. Some will use the excuse that it was god's will and we can't understand how god works. I think that's probably how 1I sees things.

If you are worried about those who want to change laws based on their religious beliefs, the best thing one can do is to become active in politics, run for office, get involved, help register people to vote, give money to people who will support your views, and above all else vote. Trying to convince individuals that they are wrong on an individual basis, in the hopes they might see things your way is pretty much a fool's errand, imo. Still, it can be fun to argue with those who attack us.