Wartime draft vs vaccine mandate

[Metaphor]

As for COVID19 (COVID-zero is an impossibility. Google how COVID19 was named) disappearing? Well, not with idiots telling others that being vaccinated violates their personal rights

Being forced to be vaccinated or else the government makes your life wretched and impossible does violate your personal rights.

You should try watching a child who is medically unable to be vaccinated nearly die because some asshole wouldn't get vaccinated or stay home when they were sick.

Life is not impossible or wretched because one must stay home unless they comply with the mandates of the local health authorities. People can and do live while confined to their homes. What do you think happens to people who are unfortunate enough to contract COVID19? THEY HAVE TO STAY HOME AND SO DO THEIR FAMILIES!!!!!!!!! Apparently that's not a problem, just like it's not a problem that assholes can infect medically vulnerable people, can place enormous stresses on our medical system and resources in the name of what? It sure ain't freedom. It's selfishness and ignorance.

You are so callous I can't engage any further until I've calmed down.

 

[Toni]

I'm so sorry that you have little knowledge of history.

The fact is that in the not too distant past, entire households were quarantined when certain illnesses were present.

Oy fucking gevalt. Just no. You are not proposing the quarantine of households with COVID. You are proposing the lockdown of households whether they have COVID or not.

Just stop with your dishonesty. Just stop. Fuck.

Households with Covid are supposed to quarantine.

Yes, I am proposing that if people wish to live in sovmciety then they need to not e danger the lives of other people. If their only concern is fir themselves, then let them stay home with the person they care about. If they want to participate in society then they need to adhere to society’s mandate to not harm other people. They need to be vaccinated.

 

[Metaphor]

Households with Covid are supposed to quarantine.

Yes, and you went on a rant about quarantine that had nothing to do with a vaccine mandate. You want to "quarantine" people who do not have COVID.

Yes, I am proposing that if people wish to live in sovmciety then they need to not e danger the lives of other people. If their only concern is fir themselves, then let them stay home with the person they care about. If they want to participate in society then they need to adhere to society’s mandate to not harm other people. They need to be vaccinated.

"Harm". People without COVID cannot infect you with COVID. If you are vaccinated, you have much less to fear. In fact, you are less likely to get it and less likely to get severely ill and less likely to die. That's the fucking point of vaccination.

You are proposing that unvaccinated people without COVID are harming society just by existing. You just do not give a fuck about people owning their own bodies. You do not give a fuck about personal freedoms, unless they are the personal freedoms you personally like and are okay with other people having.

 

[Toni]

Households with Covid are supposed to quarantine.

Yes, and you went on a rant about quarantine that had nothing to do with a vaccine mandate. You want to "quarantine" people who do not have COVID.

Yes, I am proposing that if people wish to live in sovmciety then they need to not e danger the lives of other people. If their only concern is fir themselves, then let them stay home with the person they care about. If they want to participate in society then they need to adhere to society’s mandate to not harm other people. They need to be vaccinated.

"Harm". People without COVID cannot infect you with COVID. If you are vaccinated, you have much less to fear. In fact, you are less likely to get it and less likely to get severely ill and less likely to die. That's the fucking point of vaccination.

You are proposing that unvaccinated people without COVID are harming society just by existing. You just do not give a fuck about people owning their own bodies. You do not give a fuck about personal freedoms, unless they are the personal freedoms you personally like and are okay with other people having.

Yes, if you are able to be vaccinated.

A lot of people are not able to be vaccinated, especially children under 12 and children over 12 with stupid parents who forbid them being vaccinated. Unfortunately, children are not immune from infection or from serious disease or from death by COVID. Plus they are little germ factories, spreading their germs all around. How many children's deaths are acceptable to you, Metaphor? And you call me callous.

Other people who cannot be vaccinated include those who have serious allergies to various components of any of the vaccines available. I have a friend in this category who went to a lot of trouble convincing doctors to do enough testing on her and research on the components of the vaccines to find one that might be safe for her. Of course, she has a lot of money and lives near an excellent research hospital, so she had resources.

What about my friend who had a liver transplant? Sure, he's vaccinated, but vaccination is less effective for transplant recipients.

What about cancer patients?

People with a variety of illnesses?

Those who are immunocompromised?

How callous can you be?

People who do not wish to obey the rules of the road: become licensed, obey traffic laws, carry insurance: are not allowed to drive because they needlessly endanger the safety and lives of others. They cannot legally drive because they do not meet the requirements--almost always by choice.

People who do not wish to follow all sorts of guidelines and laws and regulations cannot participate in various activities. One must be vaccinated against all kinds of things to go to school or daycare, to work in a school or day care, to work in health care, to work in any congregate living situation, to be in the armed forces. If you don't want to be vaccinated, you cannot do those things because by refusing to be vaccinated, you endanger the lives of others.

If you don't wish to be vaccinated, fine: stay home. Order in your food. Find ways to do your job or get the money you need to earn money to cover your expenses. Do NOT call for an ambulance when someone becomes ill. Just ride it out.

Don't go out and get infected and allow the virus to mutate and spread to other people.

You don't have the right to endanger other people because you're a selfish jerk.

Of course, if you cannot be vaccinated because of medical reasons, then of course, you should not be confined to your home, although that's pretty much what people who are medically fragile have been for the past year and a half: confined to their homes.

Do you know how many older adults are languishing alone in their rooms in nursing homes, unable to see and talk to and hug their family members because of selfish jerks?

You only want 'freedom' for people you agree with. You are the callous person here.

 

[Metaphor]

Yes, if you are able to be vaccinated.

A lot of people are not able to be vaccinated, especially children under 12 and children over 12 with stupid parents who forbid them being vaccinated. Unfortunately, children are not immune from infection or from serious disease or from death by COVID. Plus they are little germ factories, spreading their germs all around. How many children's deaths are acceptable to you, Metaphor? And you call me callous.

You are the worst kind of callous: the kind that thinks she's kind.

Your question, by the way, is so ludicrous I can't even. It's like asking "how many children's deaths are acceptable to you" because you condone people driving on the street.

What about my friend who had a liver transplant? Sure, he's vaccinated, but vaccination is less effective for transplant recipients.

What about cancer patients?

People with a variety of illnesses?

Those who are immunocompromised?

How callous can you be?

What about them?

People who do not wish to obey the rules of the road: become licensed, obey traffic laws, carry insurance: are not allowed to drive because they needlessly endanger the safety and lives of others. They cannot legally drive because they do not meet the requirements--almost always by choice.

People who do not wish to follow all sorts of guidelines and laws and regulations cannot participate in various activities. One must be vaccinated against all kinds of things to go to school or daycare, to work in a school or day care, to work in health care, to work in any congregate living situation, to be in the armed forces. If you don't want to be vaccinated, you cannot do those things because by refusing to be vaccinated, you endanger the lives of others.

If you don't wish to be vaccinated, fine: stay home. Order in your food. Find ways to do your job or get the money you need to earn money to cover your expenses. Do NOT call for an ambulance when someone becomes ill. Just ride it out.

Don't go out and get infected and allow the virus to mutate and spread to other people.

Vaccinated people can become infected. Why aren't you placing them under pre-emptive house arrest?

You don't have the right to endanger other people because you're a selfish jerk.

People have the right to not be under house arrest when they have not committed a crime.

Of course, if you cannot be vaccinated because of medical reasons, then of course, you should not be confined to your home, although that's pretty much what people who are medically fragile have been for the past year and a half: confined to their homes.

Do you know how many older adults are languishing alone in their rooms in nursing homes, unable to see and talk to and hug their family members because of selfish jerks?

Do you mean, the selfish jerks in government who locked down entire nations without any regard to costs they completely discounted, like children and teenagers suffering mentally and socially (and very young children who may NEVER recover from being locked down during such a formative period)? And indeed the people fucking dying who were not allowed to see their family because they lived one side of an arbitrary border.

I think you missed your calling in life, Toni. A politician without conscience.

You only want 'freedom' for people you agree with. You are the callous person here.

I want people to not be under house arrest because unlike you, I believe medical procedures should be fucking uncoerced.

 

[Toni]

You are the worst kind of callous: the kind that thinks she's kind.

Your question, by the way, is so ludicrous I can't even. It's like asking "how many children's deaths are acceptable to you" because you condone people driving on the street.



What about them?

People who do not wish to obey the rules of the road: become licensed, obey traffic laws, carry insurance: are not allowed to drive because they needlessly endanger the safety and lives of others. They cannot legally drive because they do not meet the requirements--almost always by choice.

People who do not wish to follow all sorts of guidelines and laws and regulations cannot participate in various activities. One must be vaccinated against all kinds of things to go to school or daycare, to work in a school or day care, to work in health care, to work in any congregate living situation, to be in the armed forces. If you don't want to be vaccinated, you cannot do those things because by refusing to be vaccinated, you endanger the lives of others.

If you don't wish to be vaccinated, fine: stay home. Order in your food. Find ways to do your job or get the money you need to earn money to cover your expenses. Do NOT call for an ambulance when someone becomes ill. Just ride it out.

Don't go out and get infected and allow the virus to mutate and spread to other people.

Vaccinated people can become infected. Why aren't you placing them under pre-emptive house arrest?

You don't have the right to endanger other people because you're a selfish jerk.

People have the right to not be under house arrest when they have not committed a crime.

Of course, if you cannot be vaccinated because of medical reasons, then of course, you should not be confined to your home, although that's pretty much what people who are medically fragile have been for the past year and a half: confined to their homes.

Do you know how many older adults are languishing alone in their rooms in nursing homes, unable to see and talk to and hug their family members because of selfish jerks?

Do you mean, the selfish jerks in government who locked down entire nations without any regard to costs they completely discounted, like children and teenagers suffering mentally and socially (and very young children who may NEVER recover from being locked down during such a formative period)? And indeed the people fucking dying who were not allowed to see their family because they lived one side of an arbitrary border.

I think you missed your calling in life, Toni. A politician without conscience.

You only want 'freedom' for people you agree with. You are the callous person here.

I want people to not be under house arrest because unlike you, I believe medical procedures should be fucking uncoerced.

I'm not suggesting that medical procedures be coerced. I'm saying that refusing to be vaccinated in order to protect other people and yourselves from a potentially deadly infection means you have to stay home. Everyone has a choice. You know: That place most people want to be when they aren't at work or out drinking or whatever. You know: beds, television, food in the fridge, heating/air conditioning, internet connection providing endless hours of recreation. The place where lots of people dump thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars to make it nicer? Why not work from home?

The absolute fact that too many so called adults have refused and are still refusing to be vaccinated is EXACTLY the reason that small children have been confined to home, sentenced to 'learning' by computer, unable to enjoy the company of their grandparents and cousins and other extended family. It's the reason they're suffering from social/mental deprivation and stresses. It's the reason their parents are under enormous stress, attempting to work from home AND raise toddlers and infants AND teach their school aged kids and are fighting with each other and the kids over who gets to use the WIFI. It's the reason that some of the posters here cannot visit their own parents in nursing homes and share their final moments. It's the fucking reason I am grateful that my FIL passed away just a couple of weeks before the lockdown. It's the reason that people dying are not allowed to see their family not just because of borders but because families aren't allowed inside hospitals or nursing homes. It's the reason women are giving birth without their partners present, without family nearby to share the joy--and having to endure the terror that someone they are in contact with is infected and asymptomatic and will spread the infection to them or their newborn.

You are the one who is absolutely callous to the needs of children and working parents and students and working people altogether.

As for careers--well, you don't even have to be a relative of Rupert Murdoch to spread your vile disinformation and false cries for 'freedom.' You just need an internet connection.

 

[Jarhyn]

Personally, I am proposing that unvaccinated people without COVID are harming society just by existing remaining unvaccinated.

In the same way as a giant pile of gunpowder next to your house on a dry hot day sitting in the sun is harming your house by existing.

 

[Toni]

Personally, I am proposing that unvaccinated people without COVID are harming society just by existing remaining unvaccinated.

In the same way as a giant pile of gunpowder next to your house on a dry hot day sitting in the sun is harming your house by existing.

Exactly right.

 

[ideologyhunter]

To me, it's sadly predictable (would've said horrifying, but that emotion is used up) that covid vaccinations could be
a) a politicized subject in America,
b) made into a narrative of coercive governance, and
c) debatable.

American disfunction, even as we approach 3/4 of a million deaths.

That old saying about the tree of liberty needing to be watered with the blood of patriots apparently applies to killing off your countrymen and self-destructing.

 

[Swammerdami]

[MENTION=103]Metaphor[/MENTION] — Serious questions:

Vaccinated people can become infected. Why aren't you placing them under pre-emptive house arrest?

Scientific studies show that the vaccinated are much less likely to get infected, and less likely to pass on the virus to others. No, the vaccination isn't perfect but very little in life is.

For public safety, it is illegal to drive while intoxicated, but sober people can have accidents also. To be consistent with your stance on vaccination, do you think it should be illegal to drive while sober?

For decades, MMR vaccination has been a requirement for admission to K-12 schools in 49 of the 50 states. (Why is Iowa an exception?) Do you think these mandates should also be removed? If not, why not?

It may seem irrelevant to your quest to enhance Freedom, but, out of curiosity, why do you think people should refuse vaccination? It protects both themselves and others; what do you think the drawbacks are?

I hope you can take time to answer these questions. Answers would help us take your position more seriously.

 

[Elixir]

You [metaphor] should try watching a child who is medically unable to be vaccinated nearly die because some asshole wouldn't get vaccinated or stay home when they were sick.

Ooooh, made meta too mad to respond. I think Meta is "the worst kind of callous: the kind that thinks (s)he's kind". Wants Free-Dumb, doesn't give one flying fuck about dying children.

 

[Toni]

[MENTION=103]Metaphor[/MENTION] — Serious questions:

Vaccinated people can become infected. Why aren't you placing them under pre-emptive house arrest?

Scientific studies show that the vaccinated are much less likely to get infected, and less likely to pass on the virus to others. No, the vaccination isn't perfect but very little in life is.

For public safety, it is illegal to drive while intoxicated, but sober people can have accidents also. To be consistent with your stance on vaccination, do you think it should be illegal to drive while sober?

For decades, MMR vaccination has been a requirement for admission to K-12 schools in 49 of the 50 states. (Why is Iowa an exception?) Do you think these mandates should also be removed? If not, why not?

It may seem irrelevant to your quest to enhance Freedom, but, out of curiosity, why do you think people should refuse vaccination? It protects both themselves and others; what do you think the drawbacks are?

I hope you can take time to answer these questions. Answers would help us take your position more seriously.

I think it is worth mentioning fir those who are unaware that Metaphor is in Australia, not the US. Unfortunately, Australia’s vaccination rollout was delayed. Instead, Australia has relied on masking, good contact tracing, lock downs, closed borders between territories and closed borders in/out of country. In this they have been pretty successful. If I understand it correctly, much of Australia has now received at least one dose of vaccine.

 

[Metaphor]

For public safety, it is illegal to drive while intoxicated, but sober people can have accidents also. To be consistent with your stance on vaccination, do you think it should be illegal to drive while sober?

I cannot understand why you think the conclusion 'it should be illegal to drive while sober' is implied from 'don't place people under house arrest for refusing a particular medical procedure'. But, I will attempt to understand how you got to that reasoning.

It appears to me that you and Toni believe that 'being unvaccinated' is the same as being drunk, and we've decided as a society that drunk people should not drive. Okay. But, being unvaccinated is not the same as being drunk (here, being drunk would be equivalent to having COVID). Drunk people pose a threat to people on the road, and having COVID poses a threat to people around you.

Imagine Pfizer had formulated an injection (called Pfizer-Undrunk) that prevented you from being drunk (or, rather, it effectively removed 90% of the alcohol in anything you consumed, so that although you could get drunk with a great deal of effort, it was unlikely). Toni's house arrest proposal is equivalent to 'anybody not taking this Pfizer-Undrunk jab is forbidden from driving--whether they get drunk or not. They are not allowed to drive even when they are sober. Similarly, 'house arrest' for not getting a COVID vaccination is 'you're not allowed to go outside, even though you don't have COVID'.

The analogy breaks down here, but the people who take Pfizer-Undrunk (and so can't get drunk) also get really good cars (immune systems) that prevent serious injury and death from accidents. And yet they still insist that the Pfizer-Undrunk refusers are perpetual dangers to everyone, and deserve never to drive, even if they are sober (don't have COVID).

Toni exposed her muddled thinking on this by talking about houses being in medical quarantine if they had scarlet fever. Funnily enough, a household where somebody has COVID should be in medical quarantine.

But households where nobody has COVID but instead contains an unvaccinated person should not be in pre-emptive, perpetual lockdown.

For decades, MMR vaccination has been a requirement for admission to K-12 schools in 49 of the 50 states. (Why is Iowa an exception?) Do you think these mandates should also be removed? If not, why not?

MMR vaccines are given at 12 months of age. We make decisions for children because a one year old baby cannot make them for herself.

But I would object to an 18 year old being forced to get the MMR vaccine.

It may seem irrelevant to your quest to enhance Freedom, but, out of curiosity, why do you think people should refuse vaccination? It protects both themselves and others; what do you think the drawbacks are?

Here's a question: in what universe did I suggest or imply people should refuse vaccination? It isn't this universe. I am pro-vaccine and anti-mandate.

I hope you can take time to answer these questions. Answers would help us take your position more seriously.

That you cannot take seriously the position 'the government should not place people who refuse vaccination under house arrest forever' says a lot about your own attitude and how seriously it should be taken.

No nation will ever get to 100% vaccination unless people are kidnapped and strapped to a gurney. Even if that were happening, presumably a network of corruption would form where people could get an 'officially already vaccinated' status without being vaccinated. Society does not need to punish people who do not want to get vaccinated. We just need to persuade as many people as possible.

And I tell you what: the prospect of somebody's life being made wretched and miserable and plunging them into poverty might get people to change their minds about getting the vaccine, but it won't have persuaded them. It would be like saying a bank robber had persuaded the teller to hand over the money in the register with the irrefutable logic of his gun.

 

[Metaphor]

You [metaphor] should try watching a child who is medically unable to be vaccinated nearly die because some asshole wouldn't get vaccinated or stay home when they were sick.

Ooooh, made meta too mad to respond. I think Meta is "the worst kind of callous: the kind that thinks (s)he's kind". Wants Free-Dumb, doesn't give one flying fuck about dying children.

Gospa moja, the muddled thinking continues, now with the spectre of dying children to adorn it!

I did not here or anywhere suggest people should not stay home when they are actually sick. Try again.

 

[Metaphor]

Personally, I am proposing that unvaccinated people without COVID are harming society just by existing remaining unvaccinated.

In the same way as a giant pile of gunpowder next to your house on a dry hot day sitting in the sun is harming your house by existing.

Exactly right.

Gospa moja. I can see this is fruitless. People are not analogous to giant piles of gunpowder.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As for COVID19 (COVID-zero is an impossibility. Google how COVID19 was named) disappearing? Well, not with idiots telling others that being vaccinated violates their personal rights

Being forced to be vaccinated or else the government makes your life wretched and impossible does violate your personal rights.

The Supreme Court settled this long ago--vaccine mandates are legal. They didn't even used to be all that controversial until now we have a death cult trying to kill as many people as possible.

So long as you don't endanger anyone else you're free to not be vaccinated. Your right to a disease is like a fist--it stops at the other guy's nose. I have no problem at all with the government making you quit engaging in biological warfare.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You are so callous I can't engage any further until I've calmed down.

In our eyes you are the callous one, wanting the freedom to go around engaging in biological warfare. You are trying to cross not only the lethal force threshold, but the WMD threshold.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Personally, I am proposing that unvaccinated people without COVID are harming society just by existing remaining unvaccinated.

In the same way as a giant pile of gunpowder next to your house on a dry hot day sitting in the sun is harming your house by existing.

They're the biological version of the Richard Montgomery.

The Richard Montgomery is basically quarantined--the wreck is surrounded by an exclusion zone. It's actually to prevent anybody from doing something that might set it off, the blast zone is far greater than the exclusion zone.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I cannot understand why you think the conclusion 'it should be illegal to drive while sober' is implied from 'don't place people under house arrest for refusing a particular medical procedure'. But, I will attempt to understand how you got to that reasoning.

It appears to me that you and Toni believe that 'being unvaccinated' is the same as being drunk, and we've decided as a society that drunk people should not drive. Okay. But, being unvaccinated is not the same as being drunk (here, being drunk would be equivalent to having COVID). Drunk people pose a threat to people on the road, and having COVID poses a threat to people around you.

Being unvaccinated is akin to driving drunk, not merely being drunk. Just look at the numbers--it's far more deadly.

Imagine Pfizer had formulated an injection (called Pfizer-Undrunk) that prevented you from being drunk (or, rather, it effectively removed 90% of the alcohol in anything you consumed, so that although you could get drunk with a great deal of effort, it was unlikely). Toni's house arrest proposal is equivalent to 'anybody not taking this Pfizer-Undrunk jab is forbidden from driving--whether they get drunk or not. They are not allowed to drive even when they are sober. Similarly, 'house arrest' for not getting a COVID vaccination is 'you're not allowed to go outside, even though you don't have COVID'.

The problem with this is that the driving part isn't under your control. Suppose you were in a situation where you might be required to drive at any moment--you can't drink in such a situation. Covid is like that--you can't guarantee you're not going to catch it.

But I would object to an 18 year old being forced to get the MMR vaccine.

I would object to the person who doesn't have the MMR shot being allowed in society. It's not just themselves they are risking.

 

[Metaphor]

As for COVID19 (COVID-zero is an impossibility. Google how COVID19 was named) disappearing? Well, not with idiots telling others that being vaccinated violates their personal rights

Being forced to be vaccinated or else the government makes your life wretched and impossible does violate your personal rights.

The Supreme Court settled this long ago--vaccine mandates are legal.

Where did I suggest that vaccine mandates were not legal in America?