Wartime draft vs vaccine mandate

[Loren Pechtel]

I've already explained this in this thread.

We do not let children make medical decisions for themselves, because they are children. But even if you need a certain vaccine to attend a certain school, the government does not ban those children from going grocery shopping with their parents, or going on planes, or going to birthday parties if they don't have a particular vaccine.

We generally do let adults make decisions about their own bodies, especially medical decisions. But that alleged freedom does not actually exist if we make life for somebody wretched, by government force, if they choose one decision over another. Technically, every person tried as a witch in Europe first had to agree to be tried. Of course, if they did not agree to be tried, they could be tied to the ground by force and have stones piled on to their bodies until they knew no end of torment.

And, of course, government mandate violates freedom of association as well. It is not permissible for a store to say 'we are vaccine agnostic', and let people decide for themselves whether it's worth the risk to shop there. No, people are too fucking dumb and evil to make decisions for themselves.

This doesn't address my point at all.

It's not about your own health, it's about the risk to others.

Your response doesn't address anything I wrote.

You are basically saying that people should have the right to be irresponsible and endanger others--yet you refuse to actually address the fact the drunk driving comparison. Being unvaccinated in public is a greater public health risk than being drunk behind the wheel--and that's just looking at the risk to the vaccinated.

 

[Metaphor]

Your response doesn't address anything I wrote.

You are basically saying that people should have the right to be irresponsible and endanger others--yet you refuse to actually address the fact the drunk driving comparison. Being unvaccinated in public is a greater public health risk than being drunk behind the wheel--and that's just looking at the risk to the vaccinated.

No. Having COVID in public is a greater public health risk than being drunk behind the wheel.

FFS, get a grip.

 

[fromderinside]

I agree Metaphor. COVID is an existential national threat similar to that of armies attacking our homeland.

All we need do is recognize that for war to be declared there must be an actual attack on our properties and peoples as is being done by COVID.

When such is done some 'freedoms' must be constrained. Those that facilitate the attacks are such freedoms that need be regulated.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Draft-dodgers are roundly condemned in our American culture. But when it comes to avoiding getting a mere vaccination, the justification is used of "my body, my choice". Why does that not apply to draft-dodgers too?

I think the other factor is anti-intellectualism. Conservatives often favor anti-intellectual, low-brow, brutish, masculinist males. So, draft-dodgers are "weak" because they don't obey orders to grab a gun and kill people. People who refuse vaccines are doing it because they are rejecting so-called "science" (sarcasm) and going up against the powerful corrupt establishment...also they're strong people who can live on faith alone....instead of your elitist mumbo jumbo.

I created a visual to help with the multiple factors involved:

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Your response doesn't address anything I wrote.

You are basically saying that people should have the right to be irresponsible and endanger others--yet you refuse to actually address the fact the drunk driving comparison. Being unvaccinated in public is a greater public health risk than being drunk behind the wheel--and that's just looking at the risk to the vaccinated.

No. Having COVID in public is a greater public health risk than being drunk behind the wheel.

FFS, get a grip.

But the unvaccinated person won't know if they are contagious or not. Just like the drunk driver doesn't know if they'll hit someone or not.

We consider taking a risk at the level of drunk driving to be unacceptable, the risk of being unvaccinated is higher.

 

[Metaphor]

But the unvaccinated person won't know if they are contagious or not.

Neither do the vaccinated.

We consider taking a risk at the level of drunk driving to be unacceptable, the risk of being unvaccinated is higher.

Who is 'we', got a mouse in your purse?

 

[Toni]

But the unvaccinated person won't know if they are contagious or not.

Neither do the vaccinated.

Fully vaccinated persons are at a much lower risk of spreading COVID19 compared with unvaccinated persons.

We consider taking a risk at the level of drunk driving to be unacceptable, the risk of being unvaccinated is higher.

Who is 'we', got a mouse in your purse?

We would be people in the US. In the US, the risks associated with driving while under the influence of alcohol are considered sufficiently grave as to be considered criminal and to warrant increase in insurance rates or loss of insurance altogether, in addition to any criminal penalties and restriction of or loss of license drive.

Loren is saying that the risk of being unvaccinated is higher than the risk of driving while under the influence of alcohol. He's right: About 10,000 people are killed in accidents involving drunk drivers each year in the US. In 2020, about 375,000 people died from COVID 19 in the US. That's a pretty enormous difference.

 

[Metaphor]

Fully vaccinated persons are at a much lower risk of spreading COVID19 compared with unvaccinated persons.

I did not say otherwise. I said what I said, which was that vaccinated people and unvaccinated people alike do not know when they are contagious.

We would be people in the US. In the US, the risks associated with driving while under the influence of alcohol are considered sufficiently grave as to be considered criminal and to warrant increase in insurance rates or loss of insurance altogether, in addition to any criminal penalties and restriction of or loss of license drive.

Loren is saying that the risk of being unvaccinated is higher than the risk of driving while under the influence of alcohol. He's right: About 10,000 people are killed in accidents involving drunk drivers each year in the US. In 2020, about 375,000 people died from COVID 19 in the US. That's a pretty enormous difference.

It's an enormous difference and an idiotic comparison. Being unvaccinated is not the same as dying of COVID. Most unvaccinated people will never die of COVID.

 

[Toni]

Fully vaccinated persons are at a much lower risk of spreading COVID19 compared with unvaccinated persons.

I did not say otherwise. I said what I said, which was that vaccinated people and unvaccinated people alike do not know when they are contagious.

We would be people in the US. In the US, the risks associated with driving while under the influence of alcohol are considered sufficiently grave as to be considered criminal and to warrant increase in insurance rates or loss of insurance altogether, in addition to any criminal penalties and restriction of or loss of license drive.

Loren is saying that the risk of being unvaccinated is higher than the risk of driving while under the influence of alcohol. He's right: About 10,000 people are killed in accidents involving drunk drivers each year in the US. In 2020, about 375,000 people died from COVID 19 in the US. That's a pretty enormous difference.

It's an enormous difference and an idiotic comparison. Being unvaccinated is not the same as dying of COVID. Most unvaccinated people will never die of COVID.

Approximately 37 times as many unvaccinated people died in 2020 as died from drunk driving.

Most people who get drunk will never die in a drunk driving accident.

Most drivers will never die as a result of another driver driving drunk

Most passengers will never die as a result of another driver driving drunk.


FFS, more people died from COVID19 in the US in 2020 than died from drug overdoes and drunk driving combined!

 

[Metaphor]

Most people who get drunk will never die in a drunk driving accident.

Most people who get COVID will not die from COVID

Most drivers will never die as a result of another driver driving drunk

Most people will never die as a result of another person getting COVID.

Being unvaccinated is not the same as driving drunk. It's not even the same as getting drunk.

 

[AdamWho]

I am done arguing with anti-vaxxers

They are perfectly welcome to not be vaccinated... but they should follow through with their convictions and not go to the hospital or out to infect other people.

And when they die, I will mock their stupidity.

https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward

 

[Toni]

Most people who get drunk will never die in a drunk driving accident.

Most people who get COVID will not die from COVID

Most drivers will never die as a result of another driver driving drunk

Most people will never die as a result of another person getting COVID.

Being unvaccinated is not the same as driving drunk. It's not even the same as getting drunk.

Being unvaccinated greatly increases the chances that you will become infected with COVID19. Being infected with COVID19 means that you have a good chance of transmitting the virus, whether you know you have it or not. And of course, one cannot die of COVID19 if one does not have COVID19.

COVID19 further increases the chances of death in persons who never contract the illness as the health care system is overburdened and in some places, overwhelmed, meaning that non-COVID patients die needlessly while waiting for treatment or being transferred to a hospital with an available bed--or simply not being able to be treated.

COVID19 is a bigger threat to life in the US than drunk driving or overdosing on drugs. In the US in 2020, only cancer and heart disease were responsible for more deaths than COVID19.

 

[atrib]

You are proposing that unvaccinated people without COVID are harming society just by existing. You just do not give a fuck about people owning their own bodies. You do not give a fuck about personal freedoms, unless they are the personal freedoms you personally like and are okay with other people having.

Our personal freedoms do not include the right to violate the personal freedoms of others. You have the right to not get vaccinated, but not the right to harm or potentially harm others through your choice of risky behavior. Its the reason why we have speed limits on the highway and laws against driving while intoxicated.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Most people who get drunk will never die in a drunk driving accident.

Most drivers will never die as a result of another driver driving drunk

Most passengers will never die as a result of another driver driving drunk.

Then, clearly, we do not need laws against drunk driving. The minimal impacts pale in comparison to the blanket infringement on drunk people's absolute right to drive whenever and wherever they want. Right? Some of the people who drive drunk don't even know they're drunk!! How can you punish them for that???

 

[Keith&Co.]

You are proposing that unvaccinated people without COVID are harming society just by existing. You just do not give a fuck about people owning their own bodies. You do not give a fuck about personal freedoms, unless they are the personal freedoms you personally like and are okay with other people having.

I'd say it was more accurate to say that the unvaccinated, as a group, pose A THREAT to the rest of society by existing unless they take extra steps to prevent the spread of the disease.
Those that actually spread the disease, and create harm, are a subset of The Unvax.

I, for one, believe very strongly in personal freedoms but 1) they are not infinite, and 2) they do not come without personal responsibilities.
If John Doe does not wish to be vaccinated, that's currently within his rights. He does not have a right, though, to risk being a vector of COVID, COVID+, COVID++ or COVIDXXX. He especially doesn't have A RIGHT to a job that might expose others. He doesn't have a RIGHT to socializing with other people who have set a standard for minimum steps to prevent the spread.
No more than i have a RIGHT to drive at 100 mph past a school zone.

 

[Toni]

Most people who get drunk will never die in a drunk driving accident.

Most drivers will never die as a result of another driver driving drunk

Most passengers will never die as a result of another driver driving drunk.

Then, clearly, we do not need laws against drunk driving. The minimal impacts pale in comparison to the blanket infringement on drunk people's absolute right to drive whenever and wherever they want. Right? Some of the people who drive drunk don't even know they're drunk!! How can you punish them for that???

I know, right?

Freedum's just another word for nothing left to lose.
Nothing ain't worth nothing but it's free

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But the unvaccinated person won't know if they are contagious or not.

Neither do the vaccinated.

And a sober driver isn't guaranteed not to cause an accident. They're just a lot less likely to.

We consider taking a risk at the level of drunk driving to be unacceptable, the risk of being unvaccinated is higher.

Who is 'we', got a mouse in your purse?

"We" = society. Is there any industrialized nation without a drunk driving law?