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Was the antisemitism in the Book of John just an internecine squabble between Jews?

repoman

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I have heard this while watching a Bart Ehrman lecture, but I can't find it now.

Basically, was whoever wrote John part of a wacky Jewish sect?

I wonder what the writer's take on how his writings were used would be.

Was the word "Jews" as it is written in English now, initially imparted with more complex or specific meaning in the writing of John?
 
NFL.

I hew more to the scenario of Burton Mack's Who Wrote the New Testament?: The Making of the Christian Myth. Mack suggests northern Syria a mite after the turn to the second century, and that the antisemitism arises from the denial and expulsion of the nascent Christian community from the Jewish communities of the Jewish Diaspora. Of course, Judaism had reformed and restructured itself in exile after the destruction of the Temple and razing of Jerusalem in 70 CE.

GJohn was written by a Grecophone, far from Judea. I think it unlikely that the writer was a 'Jew', in the sense of being (or having been) a resident of Judea, nor in the sense of being a practitioner of YHWH, nor speaker of Hebrew. AJohn was a goy.

I suspect that the Gospel of John has been considerably reworked. The rumors which intrigue me are more to the effect that GJohn has a Gnostic core that has been recast....much as the epistles of Paul/Saul were recast. Possibly twice.

My best on the four gospel authors to best fit the description of being part of a wacky Jewish sect would have been AMatthew. He believed in prophetic stars and bodily resurrection of the dead. I mean, really....wandering astronomers and zombies on the streets of Jerusalem? That Matt...he's was a crazy guy.
 
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Ok, that makes sense. Ehrman may be hamstrung in his worldview because he thinks there was a real historic Jesus who was not god.
 
I have heard this while watching a Bart Ehrman lecture, but I can't find it now.

Basically, was whoever wrote John part of a wacky Jewish sect?

I wonder what the writer's take on how his writings were used would be.

Was the word "Jews" as it is written in English now, initially imparted with more complex or specific meaning in the writing of John?

It seems incredibly likely, considering that there was a kingdom named "Judea" at the time, and people who lived there; people who in that generation were infamous and reviled for rebelling against Mother Rome. Among gentile Christians, often facing criticism from their born-Jewish counterparts, the likelihood of tension between those who were ethnically Jewish and those who were not must have been considerable.

After all, "wacky Jewish sect" is a pretty good description of the earliest Christians. But within one generation, the movement had spread to include quite a lot of non-Jews. John is the last of the gospels to be written, well after but not beyond the memory of the apocalyptic events that led to the destruction of the temple and most aspects of the Judean way of life.

Notice that in John, judaoi in the plural is almost always applied to the Temple and its agents; the people Jesus talks to throughout most of his journeys are the polloi (the crowd) or the oxlos (the mob), but seldom "the jews", even though they were also Jewish. It's even possible that this is what is meant in the famous trial scene; it may not have been everyone present that was calling for Jesus' death so much as a certain crowd of people associated with the Judean theocracy.

But of course, what was meant by the writer has no bearing on how it was later interpreted. From the early Roman period on, there can be no doubt that John was read by most Christians as a Biblical justification for racial prejudice and religious oppression.
 
I have heard this while watching a Bart Ehrman lecture, but I can't find it now.

Basically, was whoever wrote John part of a wacky Jewish sect?

I wonder what the writer's take on how his writings were used would be.

Was the word "Jews" as it is written in English now, initially imparted with more complex or specific meaning in the writing of John?

It seems incredibly likely, considering that there was a kingdom named "Judea" at the time, and people who lived there; people who in that generation were infamous and reviled for rebelling against Mother Rome. Among gentile Christians, often facing criticism from their born-Jewish counterparts, the likelihood of tension between those who were ethnically Jewish and those who were not must have been considerable.

Well, yes. The tension had been present long before the arrival of the Romans. The Seleucid dynasty disintegrated in the century prior, Judea got its sovereignty and immediately engaged in imperialism followed by a nasty civil war between those of Hellenistic tendencies and....no wait...well, any way, one side invited in the Romans and that was that. They put Herod the Great in charge...who was resented because he was not a Jew.

After all, "wacky Jewish sect" is a pretty good description of the earliest Christians. But within one generation, the movement had spread to include quite a lot of non-Jews. John is the last of the gospels to be written, well after but not beyond the memory of the apocalyptic events that led to the destruction of the temple and most aspects of the Judean way of life.

True about the christians really wanting to be a 'Jewish sect', wacky or not. Estimated at forty years from the destruction of the Temple. Considering how apocalyptic this must have been to devotees of YHVH, I'd say it is distinctly not beyond everybody's memory. I suspect the Jews would still be quite piqued about it, but a bunch of gentiles would be like..."See, you guys fucked up and we won the covenant. Too bad, suckers."

Notice that in John, judaoi in the plural is almost always applied to the Temple and its agents; the people Jesus talks to throughout most of his journeys are the polloi (the crowd) or the oxlos (the mob), but seldom "the jews", even though they were also Jewish. It's even possible that this is what is meant in the famous trial scene; it may not have been everyone present that was calling for Jesus' death so much as a certain crowd of people associated with the Judean theocracy.

Yeah, could be, I suppose. But how about it was because none of it ever happened at all and it was all an inspired piece of midrash? The Christians what wrote it would want their precursors to have qualified for salvation. Writing with more general descriptors allows the doors to be left wide.

But of course, what was meant by the writer has no bearing on how it was later interpreted. From the early Roman period on, there can be no doubt that John was read by most Christians as a Biblical justification for racial prejudice and religious oppression.

Yep...It's all in the interpretation.
 
It certainly wasn't anti-semitism back then (unlike the context used today), since the majority of individuals there were semites anyway. I would agree to some point that Christians back then were not in favour of certain particular judaic practices e.g. like the pharasees but then again, neither did the "priestly-class" (or maccabees) who were also Jews who also did not agree with the pharisees and vice-versa.

Today of course anti-semitism has the context as a race of people (combined with religion to some) and the rhetoric that suggests Christians are racially prejudice simply by the disputes from the religious aspect and NOT the racial apsect (which is against the Christian theology anyway) is erroneous.
 
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know,
for salvation is from the Jews.
John 4:22 (NIV)

Yeah. Real anti-semitism right there.
 
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know,
for salvation is from the Jews.
John 4:22 (NIV)

Yeah. Real anti-semitism right there.

Yeah.

Damning.
 
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know,
for salvation is from the Jews.
John 4:22 (NIV)

Yeah. Real anti-semitism right there.

Except, of course, the Samaritans were themselves Jews claiming descendance from Joseph, of the coat, through Levi, Ephraim. While it was internecine, it was antisemitism. This was precisely why the parable of the Good Samaritan was framed as it was. The parable wasn't asserting that non Jews were brothers, merely Jews that were hated by the other tribes of Israel.
 
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know,
for salvation is from the Jews.
John 4:22 (NIV)

Yeah. Real anti-semitism right there.

Except, of course, the Samaritans were themselves Jews claiming descendance from Joseph, of the coat, through Levi, Ephraim. While it was internecine, it was antisemitism. This was precisely why the parable of the Good Samaritan was framed as it was. The parable wasn't asserting that non Jews were brothers, merely Jews that were hated by the other tribes of Israel.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIVB3DdRgqU[/YOUTUBE]

Apologies for the poor video quality.
 
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know,
for salvation is from the Jews.
John 4:22 (NIV)

Yeah. Real anti-semitism right there.

Even if this interpretation were correct (see Subymbolic's response), how does this negate the anti-Jewish messages of the other parts of the New Testament?

The anti-Jewish elements of the story are far more prevalent/prominent than any imagined pro-Jewish messages, which is why for most of the past two thousand years, Christians have done horrific things to Jews. The Holocaust wasn't an aberration in the relation between Christians and Jews, but the cherry on top of a horrifying atrocity sundae.

The history of Christianity makes clear that anti-Jewish sentiment is taught by the Bible.
 
The Op is about the book of John.
And Subsymbolic underscored that Samaritans claiming affinity to eternal Israel could hardly be cited as victims of anti-semitism from Jesus.
Where we read the Gospel writers criticizing "the Jews" its a stretch to claim this was an ad hominem attack rather than an attack on the actions of a collective group (conveniently) referred to as the Jews. There was a plainly pragmatic need to disambiguate the establishment Jews from...you know ...those other people who were also Jews of a different sort.

 
Everything plus the kitchen sink slurs thrown at Jesus. You can't get Jesus this way ...then lets try anti-semitism.

:p
 
Why don't you try thinking of 'Jews' as being those who were resident in Judea? That means everybody who lived and paid taxes in the geographic area known as Judea. If you were a devotee of YHWH, and gave credence to the Temple and its priesthood in Jerusalem, then you might be referred to as a 'Hebrew' or an 'Israelite'. But, in Jerusalem, there would have been an admixture of other peoples, both pagan and other Hebraic sectarians, including believers in the likes of the Great Angel, and the Enochians, as well as the neighboring Samaritans. And well all know about the various 'libraries' like those in Qumran, evidencing robust divergent religious traditions. Indeed, only a lifetime earlier, the Parthians had occupied Jerusalem, and lurked just beyond the frontier, so Zoroastrianism would probably have been present, as well. And, of course, after 135 CE, the new temple to Jupiter would rise on Mount Moriah, thanks to the exasperated Latins. What we call Judiasm was not some monolithic belief system....it had a central temple and an active priesthood that was widely resented by much of the local population, as it was a known puppet to the political powers of the day. Most of them would have spoken a Semitic language and acknowledged Semitic customs, even the likes of Herod, who was not a Jew.

What we call 'antisemitism' is a resentment of the teachers of the scriptural interpretations of what became diaspora Judaism and claimed the scriptural underpinnings of the teachings of the Christian sectarians. The 'authorities' of the scriptures denied the Christian interpretation and explicitly excluded Christian teachings as heretical. The antisemitism is reactionary to their exclusion from the congregation.
 
Everything plus the kitchen sink slurs thrown at Jesus. You can't get Jesus this way ...then lets try anti-semitism.

:p

Well, it seems quite common that later interpreters give many of the documents as being 'anti-semitic' (basically, "against those who dismiss our interpretation, based on their interpretation of their scriptures, which we adopted and finally interpreted correctly"), and malevolent in nature . This is not new. It's been in the open for centuries, now.
 
"The Jews"?

The Greek word for "Jew" and "Judean" was the same.

Some references to "the Jews" probably meant "the Judeans" in contrast to Galileans and Samaritans. Almost certainly this has led to some confusion about "the Jews" in the NT. It's impossible to calculate how much. It's impossible to determine which meaning was intended in each case.

Better not to put much reliance on "the Jews" passages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioudaios
 
Followers of Jesus were initially looked at as Jewish heretics. As time passed they developed a separate identity as Christians. They coopted the Torah as their own. Paul had dispensed with the Jewish requirements.

Paul had conflict with the Jerusalem Jewish power elite, and acceding to the NT at one point he was on the run from Jews taking refuge behind his Roman citizenship.

The enmity between Jews and Christians goes back to the beginning.
 
Why don't you try thinking of 'Jews' as being those who were resident in Judea? That means everybody who lived and paid taxes in the geographic area known as Judea. If you were a devotee of YHWH, and gave credence to the Temple and its priesthood in Jerusalem, then you might be referred to as a 'Hebrew' or an 'Israelite'. But, in Jerusalem, there would have been an admixture of other peoples, both pagan and other Hebraic sectarians, including believers in the likes of the Great Angel, and the Enochians, as well as the neighboring Samaritans. And well all know about the various 'libraries' like those in Qumran, evidencing robust divergent religious traditions. Indeed, only a lifetime earlier, the Parthians had occupied Jerusalem, and lurked just beyond the frontier, so Zoroastrianism would probably have been present, as well. And, of course, after 135 CE, the new temple to Jupiter would rise on Mount Moriah, thanks to the exasperated Latins. What we call Judiasm was not some monolithic belief system....it had a central temple and an active priesthood that was widely resented by much of the local population, as it was a known puppet to the political powers of the day. Most of them would have spoken a Semitic language and acknowledged Semitic customs, even the likes of Herod, who was not a Jew.

What we call 'antisemitism' is a resentment of the teachers of the scriptural interpretations of what became diaspora Judaism and claimed the scriptural underpinnings of the teachings of the Christian sectarians. The 'authorities' of the scriptures denied the Christian interpretation and explicitly excluded Christian teachings as heretical. The antisemitism is reactionary to their exclusion from the congregation.

There were the Jerusalem, Syrian, Rome, and Greek Jews. I read there was a dispute between Jerusalem and Syrian Jews as to who was the true line going back to Moses and Abraham. Similar to the Muslim Sunni Shiite split. I read that for a time the Roman Jews were respected for business skills and a strong patriarchal family. It became a Roman fad religion for a while.

In the time of the gospels there was no monolithic Jewish culture.
 
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know,
for salvation is from the Jews.
John 4:22 (NIV)

Yeah. Real anti-semitism right there.

The old testament Jews were an intolerant people, the chosen people of a god. A god who aided in defeating enemies/ They were minor players in the region when Israel was a power who waged war. Everybody pretty much hated everybody else's culture. Egyptians-Assyrians. In those times anti Semitism did not really apply.
 
The Op is about the book of John.
And Subsymbolic underscored that Samaritans claiming affinity to eternal Israel could hardly be cited as victims of anti-semitism from Jesus.
Where we read the Gospel writers criticizing "the Jews" its a stretch to claim this was an ad hominem attack rather than an attack on the actions of a collective group (conveniently) referred to as the Jews. There was a plainly pragmatic need to disambiguate the establishment Jews from...you know ...those other people who were also Jews of a different sort.



Again, for thousands of years, Christians read the same Bible you're reading, and they interpreted it as justifying really awful mistreatment of the Jews.

Much of the Nazi's policies regarding Jews came straight from the father of Protestantism, specifically a book titled "On the Jews and Their Lies."

Catholics are far from off the hook. They did plenty of awful things to Jews, including kidnapping Jewish babies so that they could be raised by Christian parents.

For thousands of years Christians read the same book you are reading, and came to the conclusion that mistreating and even killing Jews was justified. It is only after the Holocaust that Christians suddenly started to get the exact opposite message from reading the Bible.

If God wrote the Bible and intended it to communicate His intent, and it took Christians 1945 years of getting it exactly wrong before they could understand the "real intent" of God, what does that say about the author of the Bible and the intent of the Bible?
 
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