Washington Man Accused of Hurling Molotov Cocktails at ICE Detention Center Killed by Police

[Half-Life]

Aside from being unlikely to be successful in this case, I'm not exactly clear on why it would be morally wrong to liberate a concentration camp. I had a distant cousin who died doing exactly that in WWII, and I don't recall anyone ever questioning whether he had been perhaps an evil terrorist or something. There's a huge difference to me between violence in defense of the powerless, and violence targeted at them. This man died, he didn't kill anyone. And he died in defense of people who could not defend themselves. What is remotely evil about that?

Because they are NOT concentration camps. That is propaganda. Like it's been said numerous times, these immigrants had a choice to come here or not. They chose to come here, which is a criminal offense. No cop picks up a drunk driver and says, "Oh you have a kid? Sorry I'll let you go. We can't separate a parent from his child."

 

[laughing dog]

Aside from being unlikely to be successful in this case, I'm not exactly clear on why it would be morally wrong to liberate a concentration camp. I had a distant cousin who died doing exactly that in WWII, and I don't recall anyone ever questioning whether he had been perhaps an evil terrorist or something. There's a huge difference to me between violence in defense of the powerless, and violence targeted at them. This man died, he didn't kill anyone. And he died in defense of people who could not defend themselves. What is remotely evil about that?

Because they are NOT concentration camps. That is propaganda.

Once again, you have it backwards: it is propaganda that they are not concentration camps.

 

[RavenSky]

They chose to come here, which is a criminal offense.

IT IS NOT A CRIMINAL OFFENSE TO CROSS THE BORDER SEEKING ASYLUM

 

[Politesse]

Aside from being unlikely to be successful in this case, I'm not exactly clear on why it would be morally wrong to liberate a concentration camp. I had a distant cousin who died doing exactly that in WWII, and I don't recall anyone ever questioning whether he had been perhaps an evil terrorist or something. There's a huge difference to me between violence in defense of the powerless, and violence targeted at them. This man died, he didn't kill anyone. And he died in defense of people who could not defend themselves. What is remotely evil about that?

Because they are NOT concentration camps. That is propaganda. Like it's been said numerous times, these immigrants had a choice to come here or not. They chose to come here, which is a criminal offense. No cop picks up a drunk driver and says, "Oh you have a kid? Sorry I'll let you go. We can't separate a parent from his child."

A concentration camp is not defined by the moral character of those detained in it. There have been plenty of legit or accused criminals in every concentration scheme that has ever been devised by any empire. This means nothing. Concentration camps are defined by the intent to remove freedom of movement to an entire community at once. Even if I agreed with you that everyone in these camps has committed a crime (as I most certainly do not), that is irrelevant as to what is going on. The US Government has a long dirty history of confining indigenous populations and confiscating their children, and the same justifications ("they chose to rebel against our self-declared rule, therefore they deserve disproportionate reciprocal violence") have always been employed in justifying it. You can make that argument if you want, but that doesn't change what is going on. Just whether you can talk yourself into feeling that it is okay. It's not, but I accept it if you tell me you believe the camps are morally justified. You cannot tell me that they don't exist. That's absurd.

 

[Rhea]

Because they are NOT concentration camps. That is propaganda. Like it's been said numerous times, these immigrants had a choice to come here or not. They chose to come here, which is a criminal offense. No cop picks up a drunk driver and says, "Oh you have a kid? Sorry I'll let you go. We can't separate a parent from his child."

You think seeking asylum is a criminal offense?

 

[Derec]

They chose to come here, which is a criminal offense.

IT IS NOT A CRIMINAL OFFENSE TO CROSS THE BORDER SEEKING ASYLUM

THIS ASYLUM BULLSHIT IS A SCAM!

It actually makes it more difficult for the few legit asylum seekers to get a fair hearing if the works are gummed up by 100,000s of fraudulent asylum seekers only exploiting and abusing the asylum system to seek "a better life".

Just look at that Oscar guy who drowned trying to swim across Rio Grande. He applied for "asylum" and yet his mother admitted he only migrated because of the economic prospects in America.

 

[Half-Life]

Because they are NOT concentration camps. That is propaganda. Like it's been said numerous times, these immigrants had a choice to come here or not. They chose to come here, which is a criminal offense. No cop picks up a drunk driver and says, "Oh you have a kid? Sorry I'll let you go. We can't separate a parent from his child."

You think seeking asylum is a criminal offense?

That is a slippery slope. That is like you finding someone trespassing on your property and you tell them to leave or you will shoot. If the person says, "I'm not trespassing! I just have a bum knee!," they are still trespassing.

 

[Arctish]

They chose to come here, which is a criminal offense.

IT IS NOT A CRIMINAL OFFENSE TO CROSS THE BORDER SEEKING ASYLUM

THIS ASYLUM BULLSHIT IS A SCAM!

It actually makes it more difficult for the few legit asylum seekers to get a fair hearing if the works are gummed up by 100,000s of fraudulent asylum seekers only exploiting and abusing the asylum system to seek "a better life".

You have no evidence that every, or even most, asylum seekers are scammers.

They have the Right to apply for asylum, and the Right to plead their cases in court. This pre-emptive smear campaign is nothing but a transparent attempt to deny certain populations their Rights under international law and the Constitution.

We've all seen this sort of broad-brush condemnation of racial/ethnic groups before, and we know where it leads. Very few of us want to go there. Unfortunately, those few have Trump on their side and they've dragged us pretty far along that heinous path. Fortunately, the reality of those camps is coming to light and resistance is growing.

Ling Live the Resistance!

 

[Derec]

You have no evidence that every, or even most, asylum seekers are scammers.

The sheer numbers are the evidence. Or do you believe Honduras and El Salvador persecute that many people for political reasons?
It's Okham's razor. It's much more likely that the vast majority of the mass migrants are your garden variety illegals who have found a new way to scam their way into the US.

They have the Right to apply for asylum, and the Right to plead their cases in court.

That right was based on a world where ecoonomic mass migrants were not abusing the system by the 100,000s per month. The asylum system must be fundamentally reformed if it is to survive in any form long term.

This pre-emptive smear campaign is nothing but a transparent attempt to deny certain populations their Rights under international law and the Constitution, and we've seen it all before.

Bullshit. And the worst thing is, you too know full well what is going on here - it is that obvious. It's just that you do want a mass influx of these "certain populations" into the US, so you pretend that the asylum fraud is not happening.

 

[Arctish]

The sheer numbers are the evidence.

The sheer number isn't evidence of scamming. It's evidence that something is causing a lot of people to leave their homes and attempt to migrate elsewhere, which is itself evidence that something dire is happening in their communities.

Back in the 1930s there was a sudden uptick in the number of Jews seeking to emigrate to Cuba. When a boatload of them was turned back at the Port of Havana because Cubans objected to allowing so many Jews into their country, they tried to emigrate to the US. Was that change of destination evidence of scamming? That they weren't really fleeing something awful brewing in Europe, they were just turned away from Cuba is all?

If not, why not?

I'm not just Godwinning this thread. There are a lot of parallels between our treatment of the asylum seekers at the border and our treatment of ethnic minorities in the early 20th century that go beyond the similarities between concentration camps, internment facilities, and detention centers. The thinking behind denying the sincerity of the asylum seekers is one of them. Demonizing the people you want to exclude is where it starts, but that's not where it usually ends.

Or do you believe Honduras and El Salvador persecute that many people for political reasons?
It's Okham's razor. It's much more likely that the vast majority of the mass migrants are your garden variety illegals who have found a new way to scam their way into the US.


That right was based on a world where ecoonomic mass migrants were not abusing the system by the 100,000s per month. The asylum system must be fundamentally reformed if it is to survive in any form long term.

This pre-emptive smear campaign is nothing but a transparent attempt to deny certain populations their Rights under international law and the Constitution, and we've seen it all before.

Bullshit. And the worst thing is, you too know full well what is going on here - it is that obvious. It's just that you do want a mass influx of these "certain populations" into the US, so you pretend that the asylum fraud is not happening.

I don't know how much asylum fraud might be happening because I haven't looked into the number of successful vs. unsuccessful applications. I do know that a lot of human rights violations have been happening in El Salvador and Honduras, and that indigenous Central and South Americans get that a lot. And I know that when the economy takes a downturn, violence goes up and people in power abuse the powerless.

So no, I don't believe that the people seeking asylum are mostly scammers. Even if someone doesn't technically qualify for asylum, that doesn't mean they don't think they do, or that they're not fleeing genuine oppression and politically linked violence.

 

[laughing dog]

Even if most of the people seeking asylum are scammers that does not mean that they should be treated worse than cattle while the vetting of their application occurs.

 

[Patooka]

Because they are NOT concentration camps. That is propaganda.

Andrea Pitzer, who literally wrote the book on concentration camps, says you are full of shit. Then we also have someone who lived in two of them saying,

You're being dismissive of these camps because that's where you've stashed Left, haven't you? What have you done to Left? TELL US!

Shouldn’t you have capitalized “Left” since it is a single entity?

Yeah, I should have been more respectful. Now Left isn't talking to me or his family. Left is only found in obscure random youtube comments and, for some inexplicable reason, is listening to ben shapiro of all people and telling shapiro random shit. I'm worried about Left; I fear that Left might be radicalized. If Left starts quoting from PragerU or BlazeTV all of Lefts' friends and family might want to intervene, but most people are too far gone if they reach that stage.

 

[RavenSky]

Even if most of the people seeking asylum are scammers that does not mean that they should be treated worse than cattle while the vetting of their application occurs.

^^^ exactly

 

[RavenSky]

Because they are NOT concentration camps. That is propaganda. Like it's been said numerous times, these immigrants had a choice to come here or not. They chose to come here, which is a criminal offense. No cop picks up a drunk driver and says, "Oh you have a kid? Sorry I'll let you go. We can't separate a parent from his child."

You think seeking asylum is a criminal offense?

That is a slippery slope. That is like you finding someone trespassing on your property and you tell them to leave or you will shoot. If the person says, "I'm not trespassing! I just have a bum knee!," they are still trespassing.

Seeking asylum is NOT "trespassing" nor any other bullshit stupid-ass euphemism you try to come up with. The only LEGAL way to request asylum IS to come on to my property and knock on my door.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

People who seek asylum should not be presumed to either be genuine or scamming. Their applications should be processed fairly and as quickly as possible.

But as their applications are being processed, should they be given free reign to move throughout the country and possibly disappear within it? Ok, I see the concern people on the right have with this, but then that is no excuse to treat the people as prisoners. So what to do? Maybe a buffer zone on the border with a small town in which applicants can reside (families intact)?

 

[Politesse]

But as their applications are being processed, should they be given free reign to move throughout the country and possibly disappear within it?

That's usually how it works, if you're not Mexican or Arab. I've known a lot of people who emigrated legally here by one means or another, refugee status, work visas, student visas. None were imprisoned and tortured while their case was considered, nor permanently separated from their family. Because applying for citizenship is not a crime.

 

[RavenSky]

People who seek asylum should not be presumed to either be genuine or scamming. Their applications should be processed fairly and as quickly as possible.

But as their applications are being processed, should they be given free reign to move throughout the country and possibly disappear within it? Ok, I see the concern people on the right have with this, but then that is no excuse to treat the people as prisoners. So what to do? Maybe a buffer zone on the border with a small town in which applicants can reside (families intact)?

How about we just give them free reign to move throughout the country just like we used to when 89% to 98% showed up for their hearings just fine?

In fiscal year 2018, Department of Justice (DOJ) figures show that 89 percent of all asylum applicants attended their final court hearing to receive a decision on their application. When families and unaccompanied children have access to legal representation, the rate of compliance with immigration court obligations is nearly 98 percent.

https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/re...s-regularly-attend-immigration-court-hearings

RECOMMENDATIONS

In January 2019, the Trump Administration asked for $800 million to support 8,000 new immigration detention beds for a total of 52,000. The administration also began implementing a policy of returning asylum seekers entering through the southern border back to Mexico while their cases are adjudicated—raising a host of due process and safety concerns for refugees in need of protection. Instead of expanding costly and cruel immigration detention or sending asylum seekers back to danger and denying them access to legal protections, the administration should ensure that asylum seekers are provided legal representation, appearance support programs when needed to secure attendance, and information about their appearance obligations—communicated effectively and in a language they understand.

Rather than expand the use of costly and inhumane immigration detention, the administration should:

* Support access to, and funding for, legal representation in asylum and removal proceedings.
* Ensure Customs and Border Protection and Immigration and Customs Enforcement staff carefully explain appearance obligations and details in a language the asylum seeker or immigrant fully understands, and that Legal Orientation Programs, which currently operate in only 20 percent of detention centers, are provided to all in CBP custody.
* Refer asylum seekers or immigrants who need appearance support to community-based case management programs.
* Specifically, the administration should restart the Family Case Management Program —a program that provided support to families released from detention—resulted in 99 percent attendance for ICE check-ins and appointments, as well as 100 percent attendance at court hearings.
* End the detention of families and reduce unduly high and costly immigration detention levels overall. Alternatives to detention can save more than $1.44 billion for taxpayers: where one family detention bed costs $298 per day, alternatives typically cost between $.70 and $17 a day.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

[None were imprisoned and tortured while their case was considered, nor permanently separated from their family. Because applying for citizenship is not a crime.

Absolutely not a crime. But concern over walking in without a visa or any proper vetting is a legitimate concern and not mere racism.

 

[Politesse]

[None were imprisoned and tortured while their case was considered, nor permanently separated from their family. Because applying for citizenship is not a crime.

Absolutely not a crime. But concern over walking in without a visa or any proper vetting is a legitimate concern and not mere racism.

There is such a wide gulf between "legitimate concern" and "justifies absolute suspension of human rights" that I don't know how to begin to explain it to you if you don't get it. And you know damn well that racism is the motivation, because only brown children are in cages. That's not a fucking coincidence, and no one thinks it is. Find me an example of a single non-indigenous person who has been targeted by this assault. Just a single one. I know you can't.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Absolutely not a crime. But concern over walking in without a visa or any proper vetting is a legitimate concern and not mere racism.

There is such a wide gulf between "legitimate concern" and "justifies absolute suspension of human rights" that I don't know how to begin to explain it to you if you don't get it.

I don't support the "absolute suspension of human rights" for these applicants, so no you don't need to explain that to me. Please read my post again. II also specifically said these people should not be mistreated or have their families separated. So don't go there.

If you agree that there is a legitimate concern about letting people freely wander the country with no visa and no proper vetting, what do you suggest as the solution when so many apply as to overwhelm the ability to process the applications swiftly?

I suggest more funding for more judges or authority to agents for simple lower level vetting while the applicants wait on the judges, plush some sort of buffer area at the border for the applicants to safely stay at (since they are requesting asylum), without splitting families or abusing them, and allowing them to leave back out of the US should they wish to. Anything beyond that is not acceptable I agree.