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What a rapid change in Sweden
- Thread starter TSwizzle
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Probably shared by a right wing group.
Derec
Contributor
This is the problem with the ideology that sees humans as interchangeable without taking into account background or culture. The ideology that thinks Muslims mass migrants from places where almost everyone embraces Sharia Law can just be declared as "New Swedes".
What's worse, some adherents of that ideology take it further and think these "New Swedes" are superior to regular Swedes. People like Mona Sahlin, the former head of Swedish Social Democrats.
What's worse, some adherents of that ideology take it further and think these "New Swedes" are superior to regular Swedes. People like Mona Sahlin, the former head of Swedish Social Democrats.
Swammerdami
Squadron Leader
Is it clear how much of the violence is due to immigrants, and how much due to anti-immigrants?
Of course BOTH of these can be blamed on immigration. Without immigrants there's be no need for anti-immigrants.
Of course BOTH of these can be blamed on immigration. Without immigrants there's be no need for anti-immigrants.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
Its the immigrants. As a Swede, can confirm it. Its specifically Middle-Eastern immigrants that are the problem. And more specifically, Middle-Eastern immigrants who came after 2015
We had problems before with Middle-Eastern, or rather Muslim immigrants prior to this. The biggest problem were Somalis (who all came 2001). But the Swedish society and culture were able to deal with it.
I think its to do with the numbers. The amount that came in 2015 was just more than Sweden could absorb. Its going to impact Swedish culture long term. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Swedish culture ia and was in many ways quite fucked, and badly adapted to a global economy.
I won't go into details, but Swedish and Middle-Eastern cultures are badly matched. Both are collectivistic, and both have extremely strong basic values, that unfortunately clash.
Now we're having scandal after scandal where Middle-Eastern clans have taken over municipal functions and abuse it for corrupt reasons. For Swedes this is an extreme taboo, the Middle-Easterners just think we’re dumb we didn’t think of it first.
After 2015 it is unwise to go out at night in Stockholm wearing a Rolex. Before this Stockholm was super safe.
Its also impacted the economy.
The reaction has been pretty predictable. Now Sweden will become conservative, nationalistic and racist. The shift is already happening. But I think it’s probably a good thing. Swedes have a tendency to be politically extreme. We're either super liberal or super conservative.
I moved to Denmark in 2015. They took in very few refugees in the 2015 crisis. And they haven’t had any of Swedens problems.
Swedish anti-immigrants are not violent. That's a non-problem
Derec
Contributor
Zoidberg, I do not understand how you can write about all these bad consequences of Muslim mass migration, and yet write "This is not necessarily a bad thing."
In any case, places like Sweden should be a cautionary tale for others who think mass migration of populations incompatible with host country's culture is not a problem.
In any case, places like Sweden should be a cautionary tale for others who think mass migration of populations incompatible with host country's culture is not a problem.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
Swedish culture isn't a perfect culture. It has a lot of problems. It's a collectivistic consensus culture where expressing your honest opinion is harshly socially punished. It's a country of incredibly flat hierarchies. We don't really listen to leaders. We care more about what most people think. This makes Swedish politics extreme. After WW2 Sweden went from pro German and Nazi to pro USA and liberalism over night. Sweden went from homophobic and conservative in 1980's to extremely progressive and gay friendly in an instant. While those changes of opinion seem positive. The speed of these changes should make anyone wary. We can change any opinion on a dime, to any direction, really fucking fast.
Swedes don't express real opinions. It's all theatre. People do the intellectual thinking on the continent, England or USA, and then Sweden, reluctantly, imports it. It's an anti-intellectual culture. Imagine USA. But instead of California and the East coast balancing out the Bible belt, it's just the Bible belt. And instead of being staunchly Christian, they'll randomly change opinions in an extreme direction every couple of decades.
Swedish culture is a viking culture. It's a culture where you simply have to get along with your neighbours or you will all die. It's a frozen tundra with very little food. Most wars between vikings were settled through negotiation. At most only a couple of people died in each war.
It's been said that Sweden is a nation of engineers. Ie, we don't invent stuff. We just optimise. But we don't know why we're doing it.
Swedes are constantly anxious and worried we're not good enough. It's a basic make up on the culture. We feel shame when we enjoy ourselves. Something, btw, American have no problems with. Swedes are extremely fit and hot for a reason. It's because we're so self critical.
It's an inbred monoculture that mixes badly with other cultures.
I think it's simply not well adapted to a global mobile culture. There's a reason USA is the richest country on Earth. I don't think it's just down to luck. High performance American consultants I have worked with in Scandinavia are often frustrated they're not allowed to work as hard as they want.
A problem with monocultures is that they have no resilience. Look what happened to Japan. It went great until 1990 and then it all went to shit. Japan still haven't solved whatever issue they are having. I'm guessing it has to do with the culture. Japan also has an extreme culture.
So I am not against mass immigration to Sweden. I think it's good for Sweden. We certainly have the space for more people. It's just that I think Arab culture, is the (objectively) worst culture to import. Their values are just so incredibly fucked. It's like they're against it's country functioning at all. Likely the result of having been the most fertile region on Earth, since the dawn of man, and therefore it's paid off for brutal strongmen to do whatever they need to do to control it. And that's the culture they've got. Absolutely zero trust in government instututions and hellbent on wrecking that trust if given half a chance to run it. Also a collectivist culture where you will have the opinions and agree with whatever your clan leaders tells you think think. A great recipe if we want perpetual wars.
So while I am super much for immigrants influencing and changing Swedish culture, I don't want us to just switch to Arab culture. Now Sweden is like 80% Swedish and 20% Arab. No, these are not exaxct numbers. I just made them up.
Fun fact is that the Swedish language has a word for what everybody is saying. "Man", It's untranslatable. English speakers just don't think like that. But a Swede, like God, can, with this word, explain what everybody is thinking, and be sure that everybody agrees with them. It's truly remarkable that we talk like this. But we do. We use the word all the time. Not reflecting on the extreme hubris that word implies
RVonse
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Zoidberg, I have read where the immigrants are encouraged to rape the indigenous "hot" women and that they do not report their assaults because they are worried about being charged with a "hate crime". Is that really true?
Spacetime Inhabitant
Senior Member
Of course it's not just luck. Other factors include being a large nation, with massive resources, with no geographical connection with Europe (it is protected by oceans), having a huge population, being one of the oldest nations in the world (in terms of being a unified nation), benefiting from the post World War II situation.DrZoidberg said:
Contrast that with Australia, that has some of these factors, but importantly lacks the large population, due to being such a harsh country and also a younger nation, and was actually devastated by both World Wars (in terms of losing a large proportion of its young men - both in actual casualties, and because those men weren't available as workers for many years).
laughing dog
Contributor
Where did you read that?
DrZoidberg
Contributor
That needs some unpacking. Swedish dating culture is pretty weird. Basically both need to alternatively make moves and pull back. If a man doesn't follow this the women will think the guy isn't safe..
This means that, by global standards, Swedish men are relatively passive, while Swedish women come across as sexualky aggressive.
In Swedish culture its taboo to make the other feel uncomfortable. So women don't tell guys when they’re not interested.
Swedes generally don’t understand how we are weird like this and think its the natural way of flirting.
Sex is also not a big desl in Sweden. Casual sex is very normal. This is the same all over Scandinavia. Scandinavians aren't big talkers. We prefer showing affection more physically. Giving someone a pretty intimate hug, the first time we meet, is the normal way of greetimg (in a non professional setting).
Swedes are also extremely comfortable about getting naked around strangers. We don't have any social barrier about it. Hanging out naked together happens frequently, and isn't considered sexual. Wearing anything in a sauna is taboo in Sweden.
If I would flirt in other countries as I do in Sweden, I would never get laid. Women would think I am pathetic.
Arab culture, (like in all Mediterranean countries) men are sexually aggressive and pushy to the extreme. Women are expected to forcefully say no. And only after much persistence will say a weaker no, until there's sex. Rarely if ever does a Middle-Eastern woman say she wants to get fucked.
Being seen as a slut is problem in Arab countries. Not really in Sweden.
If an Arab woman gets naked in the company of a man = 100% she wants sex.
Arab women letting men stay the night = sex.
In the Middle-East men have very little sex, because there's so few opportunities. Gay sex is common, purely out of necessity.
A woman just being alone with a man, is often seen as they wanting sex.
So Arab immigrants come to Sweden and they see Swedes have loads of sex around them, but they're not getting any. They try harder and harder, and women get less and less interested. The only women they get are mentally ill. And nobody is telling them what they are doing wrong.
Its a recipe for a disaster
Arab and Swedish dating cultures could not be worse matched.
Second generation Arabs have cracked the code. Its just the first generation Arabs who cause problems like above. And smart socially competent Arabs, have also figured it out. Its just the dumb ones that are problematic. But a lot of people are stupid, and you don't need many men prone to rape to cause a big problem.
And finally, Swedish law takes rape very seriously. And police follow up on it very aggressively. Sweden is probably the easiest country on Earth to be convicted of rape. The laws are so strict, I personally think, that what many would consider normal, can be seen as rape. In Sweden women have no responsibility to communicate anything to a man. He should just be able to figure it out. This leads to pretty inflated rape convictions. I personally think Swedish rape laws are too aggressive. There's a big grey area between rape and bad sex that's gone in Swedish law. It can be argued that it's now illegal in Sweden for a man to be bad in bed.
I think the laws are like this now because of immigrants. This is Swedens way to deal with it. Not very well. Because it doesn't solve the underlying behaviour. It just makes normal guys into criminals. Arab men aren't evil, (nor especially rapey). They're just following a different set of cultural norms
I hope that helps explain it
DrZoidberg
Contributor
I have worked in both Australia and USA. The two cultures are remarkably similar IMHO. They're more similar to eachother, imho, than they are to their mother country, UK.
Being very far away will of course impact a nation where being internationally connected is important. Having online phone meetings for Europeans with Australians will never be easy.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
It's a common trope on alt-right websites or in tabloids.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
Fun fact. I work in IT. I have decades of experience leading international teams. As such I'm considered an expert on cross cultural communication and mitigating cultural differences in mixed projects. I've held many lectures and workshops on it. This is of course professional communication. Not dating. I have also worked in many countries across the globe. Making me, especially qualified at talking about cultural differences and their impacts. I'm not trying to make any arguments from authority. I'm just explaining why I can talk about this in the way that I do.
I'm a big fan of cultural mixing. I think it's great. And usually leads to all mixing cultures improving. But it's not free of friction. And can be handled catastrophically badly.
In the west we have a liberal/progressive tradition of simply ignoring cultural differences and just hoping for the best. Or worse, arrogantly assuming that brown people are all progressive. When in reality cultural mixing is a bit like randomly mixing compounds in a lab. Sometimes it goes bang. So when we're mixing, we're best off if we pour slowly. While not mixing cultures at all leads to cultures clinging to dysfunctional cultural practices for far too long, and an inablity to adapt, in a changing world. Japan being the prime example.
I'm a big fan of cultural mixing. I think it's great. And usually leads to all mixing cultures improving. But it's not free of friction. And can be handled catastrophically badly.
In the west we have a liberal/progressive tradition of simply ignoring cultural differences and just hoping for the best. Or worse, arrogantly assuming that brown people are all progressive. When in reality cultural mixing is a bit like randomly mixing compounds in a lab. Sometimes it goes bang. So when we're mixing, we're best off if we pour slowly. While not mixing cultures at all leads to cultures clinging to dysfunctional cultural practices for far too long, and an inablity to adapt, in a changing world. Japan being the prime example.
Politesse
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Deeply ironic comment, lol! You don't even see it, do you?
Derec
Contributor
Not quite the same, but this happened in Germany.
German woman given harsher sentence than rapist for calling him ‘pig’
It's not clear from the Telegraph article, but all the rapists were migrants. No wonder AfD made it to >20% ...
Also in Germany, there was this:
German politician admits lying about ethnicity of sex attackers to avoid fuelling racism
Original article in German:
Opfer verschweigt Vergewaltigung durch Flüchtlinge
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Derec
Contributor
No, I do not. I view people as individuals. I am also able to realize that certain groups have high prevalence of views and ideologies that are incompatible with Western values. Ideologies such as Islamism. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.
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southernhybrid
Contributor
https://humanevents.com/2024/06/25/...entence-is-longer-than-theirs#google_vignette
While I agree that this was certainly not an act of justice. I read that Germany has strict laws about insulting others. And while I think that is insane, even though we may be facing something similar here before too long, I also read in another article that one can get a sentence of up to 2 years for publicly insulting someone. She got 3 days. I don't that was right, but apparently it's the law in Germany. I also read that according to German law, the men were given suspended sentences along with having to do community service 60 hours a week, due to their age. I read that in a different article. Again, that is the law in Germany. And, 5 were German citizens. Why didn't you mention that? There are all types of dangerous men, regardless of their ethnicity or religious beliefs. Sadly, a lot of men are never convicted of their crimes of rape. I don't agree what happened regarding this crime, but I don't make up the laws in Germany either. The people there are outraged, btw,
I read three different articles about this situation, but only posted one link. It's easy to find more information if needed.