What are the arguments for God?

[SLD]

I wanted to start a thread that basically explains what are all of the philosophical arguments for god that have been made. I've been slowly plowing through a great history of philosophy, and there's obviously a lot of arguments made for god. More than I could count. So I thought it would make a good thread here where we just list and explain what the arguments are - but not critique them. Just explain them for understanding them deeper.

From my perspective they fall into several broad categories: first cause, design, ontological and those based on personal experience. But of course there are far more details and nuances. There is Anselm's Ontological argument, but also one from Spinoza. There's been Paley's design argument and now there is Kalaam's Cosmological Argument, which I don't really understand. I also understand that there are new ontological arguments based on modal logic. What in the world is that?

Also the book I am reading didn't really go into Aquinas's five ways much. So I don't really understand those very well.

SLD

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Also claims of revelation, argument from sensus divinitus, presuppositionalism, and arguments from personal experience, anomolous psychological states taken as experiences of God. Plantinga's Warrant, the idea that belief in God even without evidence is properly basic.

Via negativa. God is so beyond our imagining, that all we can know about God comes from revelation.

There are what I call negative arguments, the idea that if one defeats arguments from naturalism that God's existence is left by default.

There are the arguments from natural theology, that purport to demonstrate God's existence follows logically from basic premises. From Plato's The Laws - Book X, to Paley's Watch et al.

 

[Juma]

There is no end on ways to fail while thinking.
Trying to list all is truly a futile task.

What is the purpose of this list?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Arguments for God:

1) I really, really want God to exist
2 ... N) See #1

 

[another1]

The world is suspiciously ideal. Something is really fishy in the way things fit together. You don't think this seems a little odd?

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

The world is suspiciously ideal. Something is really fishy in the way things fit together. You don't think this seems a little odd?

An this is the main argument for God that seems to be most successful. This Universe cannot just have happened. But of course, God can just happen. So it's not really an argument.

A. God just happened.
B. The Universe just happened.

Choose one.

 

[AJ113]

The world is suspiciously ideal. Something is really fishy in the way things fit together. You don't think this seems a little odd?

God is suspiciously ideal. Something is really fishy in the way that he operates. You don't think this seems a little odd?

 

[another1]

Yes I do. Something is really fishy about God's fairy tales. Most people lazily repeating them are quite aware that they are fiction, in my opinion. Most people don't even believe in Bible God anymore. Opinion. It is a means to an end to them, and a way to explain the impossible synchronicity everyfuckingwhere. A convenient thing that rhymes for the human imagination. Just like everything? Still something really fishy going on with the whole thing. I agree.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The world is suspiciously ideal. Something is really fishy in the way things fit together. You don't think this seems a little odd?

The world is harsh. Things click because life has been evolving on the planet for 3 billion years.

 

[bilby]

The world is suspiciously ideal. Something is really fishy in the way things fit together. You don't think this seems a little odd?

The world is harsh. Things click because life has been evolving on the planet for 3 billion years.

The world is a minuscule fraction of the universe, essentially all of which is instantly fatal to all forms of life.

To take a minuscule speck where things are good enough for life to thrive, and to observe that speck after billions of years of evolution has fitted that life neatly into the various niches that exist, and to say 'Wow, this is suspiciously ideal' shows an astonishing lack of imagination, knowledge, and understanding.

 

[another1]

No bilby. Too much perfection. I worry about people who can't see it. You mentioned an astonishing lack of imagination as if the person who believes in God is the one lacking.
Nonbelievers who unknowingly seek God are everywhere. They are Gods busiest little workers. But I'm starting to think you truly do not believe in God. That gives me chills, bilby. How could you?

 

[Valjean]

The world is suspiciously ideal. Something is really fishy in the way things fit together. You don't think this seems a little odd?

Arguments from ignorance and incredulity. I run into this all the time from Creationists.

 

[another1]

I run into this all the time

Creationists and atheists are all doing the same work, seyorni. And they're all ignorant. My personal life doesn't involve waking up to nothing. Be it a lie, it is a lie that structures my life and community. Makes me hum a little tune and force a smile while being reamed. We all have our little things. Lies we tell inside. What is the actual difference?

You think people still believe in a brimstone God, and that is getting tacky. People are just liars. To themselves, and especially the God they secretly don't love. Things are becoming repetitive and ALL for show in our world. Rapidly this is becoming worse. As the confusion spreads, this bogus God may be all they have to hold on to. More people than you may think.

Don't be stupid by assuming that all Religious people are stupid. They're liars and they're scared but they're not stupid. They do what they have to do, which unfortunately doesn't serve God - even though they think it does. The real workers for God are Godless, and I have a lot of respect for them.

I run into this all the time, Seyorni.

 

[AJ113]

They're liars and they're scared but they're not stupid...

Depends on your definition of "stupid". For me, steadfastly believing something to be true in the face of all evidence to the contrary is a stupid thing to do. Does that make someone a fundamentally stupid person? Probably not in isolation, but it's a large step down the path to stupidity, which can be dangerous for anyone standing in the way at the time. Today, stupid belief in god(s), tomorrow, planes flown into skyscrapers.

 

[KeepTalking]

The world is suspiciously ideal. Something is really fishy in the way things fit together. You don't think this seems a little odd?

It is a bit fishy because this world is only ideal for fish. Pick a random spot on the surface of the Earth, and chances are you would not be able to live there without significant technological assistance, but fish are doing pretty well living in that random spot right now.

 

[bilby]

No bilby. Too much perfection. I worry about people who can't see it. You mentioned an astonishing lack of imagination as if the person who believes in God is the one lacking.
Nonbelievers who unknowingly seek God are everywhere. They are Gods busiest little workers. But I'm starting to think you truly do not believe in God. That gives me chills, bilby. How could you?

The same way you don't believe in Superman and the Incredible Hulk.

Obviously fictional character is obviously fictional.

And the people who wrote the God stories lived in a time when they thought their little bit of the Earth was most of what existed. It really shows. The world according to the Bible is a tiny place centred on the Middle East. Below it are mysterious waters of the deep; above it is the heavens in which God lives. And the heavens are not very far up - you can't reach them with a ladder, but you might with a tall building.

This fictional world is pretty well set up for humans and their crops and livestock.

Reality is very different. Almost all of the universe is hard vacuum. Almost all of the tiny fraction that is not vacuum is sufficiently hot as to turn any element into plasma.

Reality is vast and utterly inimical to life. If it was made by a god for the benefit of man, then why the fuck is there so much of it that is of no possible utility to man? It makes no sense.

Of course, it also makes no sense that Superman can fly, under the influence of Earth's yellow sun. One of the things about fiction is that it doesn't need to make sense.

 

[another1]

For me, steadfastly believing something to be true in the face of all evidence to the contrary is a stupid thing to do. Does that make someone a fundamentally stupid person? Probably not in isolation, but it's a large step down the path to stupidity, which can be dangerous for anyone standing in the way at the time. Today, stupid belief in god(s), tomorrow, planes flown into skyscrapers.

You lost me on that last part, so I bold typed it and you'll see it above this paragraph. Please clarify, AJ113. And hey, I totally agree with the rest, but the path to stupidity you mentioned isn't the only one available. Path I mean. Whatever you want to call it. But at least it comes in a variety of colors. Sometimes even transparent. The variety in life is just another fishy situation.

Pick a random spot on the surface of the Earth, and chances are you would not be able to live there without significant technological assistance, but fish are doing pretty well living in that random spot right now.

KT, I took what you said, and I replaced Earth with the known universe. Then I replaced fish with the human race. Good call. You're right.

And the people who wrote the God stories lived in a time when they thought their little bit of the Earth was most of what existed. It really shows.

Yeah the stuff does seem likely for the minds of those time periods. They make up all sorta stuff and call it what they call it. Do it all the time. Just because they can't explain what they feel, or they're power hungry. Or one of their slaves, in need of a faith-based chemical boost in the their brains. A little extra zing, to help carry the day's last 300lb statue stone.

And the heavens are not very far up - you can't reach them with a ladder, but you might with a tall building.

Right. And that reasoning is in everything isn't it? One more brick. One more scroll. One more study. One more test subject. One more haircut. One more. This time we're on to something. But this fictional world is pretty well set up for humans and their crops and livestock. I do agree with you 100%.

Almost all of the universe is hard vacuum. Almost all of the tiny fraction that is not vacuum is sufficiently hot as to turn any element into plasma.

I know right? Actually I don't, but that sounds like a tough spot to make such a perfect little thing like this world, much less the conscious beings assuming to live on it.

Reality is vast and utterly inimical to life. If it was made by a god for the benefit of man, then why the fuck is there so much of it that is of no possible utility to man? It makes no sense.

Agreeing of course. It really does seem fishy. What you're saying is actually a perfect example of just how fishy things really are. The space vacuum is going crazy out there. Flailing it's hoses around and making it impossible to do much of anything. Yet here we are eating sandwiches and watching football. Way too ideal under the overall circumstances.

Of course, it also makes no sense that Superman can fly, under the influence of Earth's yellow sun. One of the things about fiction is that it doesn't need to make sense.

A colossal brutality vacuum preventing all unaided life from thriving in the universe seems more fictional than Superman in my opinion.

 

[Underseer]

The  argument from ignorance fallacy seems to turn up quite frequently.

Teleological Argument: I don't understand where life comes from, therefore magic.
Transcendental Argument: I don't understand why things are true, therefore magic.
Cosmological Argument: I don't understand why the universe exists, therefore magic.
Argument from Morality: I don't understand why some things things are good and other things evil, therefore magic.

Argument from ignorance fallacies seem to come up constantly any time I discuss apologetics with Christians or Muslims. What you don't know about A can never prove B. If you want to prove B, you have to actually prove B. If you want to prove that your god created mathematics, then you'll have to provide evidence of your god, then provide evidence of your god creating mathematics (transcendental argument).

Runner up:  appeal to consequences fallacy. I really wish it were true, therefore it is true.

Take the ontological argument as an example:

• Pizza is fucking awesome.
• Pizza is the awesomest thing ever!
• The only thing awesomer than pizza is pizza that is in my hand right now.
• Therefore, there is pizza in my hand right now.

At best it's an appeal to consequence fallacy hidden behind a wall of rhetoric. At worst its a desperate attempt to define god into existence using underhanded tricks of language.

Or how about: if god isn't real, then I won't get to meet granny after I die!
Or: if god isn't real, then people will turn to crime and society will collapse.
Or: if you don't believe in god, then you will be tortured after you die.
Or: if you don't believe in god, then your life has no meaning.

Wanting something to be true has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not it is true. Your average toddler should be able to explain this to you.

Billby: technically, presuppositionalism is just the same old transcendental argument in fancy new rhetorical wrapping. Nothing new to see here.

 

[abaddon]

A colossal brutality vacuum preventing all unaided life from thriving in the universe seems more fictional than Superman in my opinion.

Yeah but the "aid" within that fiction becomes necessary precisely because it's a fiction.

Is the universe hostile to life and therefore it’s freakish that we exist?
Or is the fact that we exist good evidence that the universe is not hostile to life?

Whether it’s an atheist feeling lucky to be alive or a theist feeling intended to be alive, both cases remind me of the metaphor about the pothole being shaped just perfectly for the water in it. “I’m alive, do you know how extraordinary that is?!” Nope, I don’t. It seems rather inevitable actually, given how the universe is -- immensely perhaps even infinitely prolific. We’re each just one of many trillions of lives but unaware of it, mostly just aware of ourselves, so we stand around marveling that we are not dead. It takes a lot of self-obsession and unawareness to do that.

Not hostile, not miraculous... the universe is prolific. Small wonder that you are alive. But, seize the day because the “you” bit of that is the only really ephemeral thing of them all. Not life. Just “you”.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

The Universal Argument From Ignorance.

Romans 11:33

³³ O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

God is incomprehensible and inscrutable. So, logic and reason out the window, and insert argument from ignorance.

You atheists can't prove that .... whatever. Because God is beyond human understanding.

The argument used by Augustine, Luther, Calvin and others.