-
Features
What are you reading?
- Thread starter sensiblesue
- Start date
DrZoidberg
Contributor
I'm currently reading Stamped from the Beginning by Ibram X. Kendi
https://www.amazon.com/Stamped-Beginning-Definitive-History-National/dp/1568584636
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...ive-racist-ideas-america-ibram-x-kendi-review
Trigger Warning!
Conservatives, libertarians, and other readers of a more sensitive and fragile nature should be warned that this book acknowledges that racism exists, which could trigger crying fits and tantrums. Please click on the above links at your own risk. I take no responsibility for your ruined keyboards.
Is it any good? I wanted to read it, and have it at home. But I got a very preachy liberal bad-bad-whites vibe from it. Which made me hesitate. I don't need anybody to tell me that racism is bad or why it is bad. I just want the facts delivered without violins.
It discusses race.
It acknowledges that racism exists and discusses the history of racism.
It operates under the assumption that racism is a bad thing, and so people like you would probably find it "peachy."
Fuck.
I get why white fragility is a thing, but I can't say I fully understand it. Why do you get so defensive anytime someone wants to talk about racism?
Rousseau, you can assume that was also directed at you.
For fucks sake, African-Americans are being slaughtered in the streets for no reason other than racism, their killers go free even when the crime is recorded in video, and you two get your panties in a wad because someone wants to discuss racism in light of those murders? Really?
At what point would it be acceptable to you that people talk about racism? Under what circumstances can this topic be discussed without offending your delicate sensibilities? Because I'm really getting sick and tired of dancing on eggshells.
I even went out of my way to issue a trigger warning in big, bold letters, and it happened anyway. So much white fragility. I can't believe how delicate some people are.
I don't like it because it's bad writing. If you can't make your text compelling without constantly writing your audience on the nose, you're not a very good author. I hate when authors try to tell me what to think of something. Give me the facts and let me make my own mind up. It's also way more effective, if you want to convey disgust and horror. It's a stylistic choice. Sometimes a detached stance is more effective in conveying the horror of it all. Also, any story (true or fictional) needs emotional range to be effective. With a topic like this, to avoid becoming tedious, that requires skill. What I was asking, is if the author possesses this skill?
For the same reason I don't like books on the Holocaust that consistently refers to the killings of Jews as "murder". For one things it's factually incorrect. You need to break the law for it to be murder. But the main reason I don't like it, is because it lessens the emotional power of it. What makes the Holocaust so terrifying is the industrial scale of it. I think it's much more emotionally powerful if the language surrounding it is neutral and clinical.
Tars Tarkus
Veteran Member
Leviathan Wakes by James S.A. Corey. Just finished it; great book, no hard science(at least not too hard to wrap my head around) so I'm continuing with the series. Co-written by Daniel Abraham who has previously written a couple series I really enjoyed, The Dagger and the Coin and The Long Price Quartet.
I'm currently reading Stamped from the Beginning by Ibram X. Kendi
https://www.amazon.com/Stamped-Beginning-Definitive-History-National/dp/1568584636
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...ive-racist-ideas-america-ibram-x-kendi-review
Trigger Warning!
Conservatives, libertarians, and other readers of a more sensitive and fragile nature should be warned that this book acknowledges that racism exists, which could trigger crying fits and tantrums. Please click on the above links at your own risk. I take no responsibility for your ruined keyboards.
Is it any good? I wanted to read it, and have it at home. But I got a very preachy liberal bad-bad-whites vibe from it. Which made me hesitate. I don't need anybody to tell me that racism is bad or why it is bad. I just want the facts delivered without violins.
It discusses race.
It acknowledges that racism exists and discusses the history of racism.
It operates under the assumption that racism is a bad thing, and so people like you would probably find it "peachy."
Fuck.
I get why white fragility is a thing, but I can't say I fully understand it. Why do you get so defensive anytime someone wants to talk about racism?
Rousseau, you can assume that was also directed at you.
For fucks sake, African-Americans are being slaughtered in the streets for no reason other than racism, their killers go free even when the crime is recorded in video, and you two get your panties in a wad because someone wants to discuss racism in light of those murders? Really?
At what point would it be acceptable to you that people talk about racism? Under what circumstances can this topic be discussed without offending your delicate sensibilities? Because I'm really getting sick and tired of dancing on eggshells.
I even went out of my way to issue a trigger warning in big, bold letters, and it happened anyway. So much white fragility. I can't believe how delicate some people are.
Not understanding why I was included in this post?
Shake
Senior Member
Yep, I use it. Mainly to keep track of the books I want to read or am currently reading. Most of my connections on there have very dissimilar tastes than me, so I don't find it overly helpful on the recommendation front.
Here's my profile if anyone wants to connect and check out my lists: Link
Tars Tarkus
Veteran Member
I use it to keep track of books I've read, also. For some reason I've always wondered what book I was reading at such and such a time, and Goodreads can give me that info.
WAB
Veteran Member
I'm currently reading Stamped from the Beginning by Ibram X. Kendi
https://www.amazon.com/Stamped-Beginning-Definitive-History-National/dp/1568584636
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...ive-racist-ideas-america-ibram-x-kendi-review
Trigger Warning!
Conservatives, libertarians, and other readers of a more sensitive and fragile nature should be warned that this book acknowledges that racism exists, which could trigger crying fits and tantrums. Please click on the above links at your own risk. I take no responsibility for your ruined keyboards.
Is it any good? I wanted to read it, and have it at home. But I got a very preachy liberal bad-bad-whites vibe from it. Which made me hesitate. I don't need anybody to tell me that racism is bad or why it is bad. I just want the facts delivered without violins.
It discusses race.
It acknowledges that racism exists and discusses the history of racism.
It operates under the assumption that racism is a bad thing, and so people like you would probably find it "peachy."
Fuck.
I get why white fragility is a thing, but I can't say I fully understand it. Why do you get so defensive anytime someone wants to talk about racism?
Rousseau, you can assume that was also directed at you.
For fucks sake, African-Americans are being slaughtered in the streets for no reason other than racism, their killers go free even when the crime is recorded in video, and you two get your panties in a wad because someone wants to discuss racism in light of those murders? Really?
At what point would it be acceptable to you that people talk about racism? Under what circumstances can this topic be discussed without offending your delicate sensibilities? Because I'm really getting sick and tired of dancing on eggshells.
I even went out of my way to issue a trigger warning in big, bold letters, and it happened anyway. So much white fragility. I can't believe how delicate some people are.
Classic Leftist bullying. Be ashamed, Underseer, be ashamed.
..."white fragility?"
Perhaps, and this is a challenge, you can start a new thread, explaining how your use of the term "white fragility" is NOT racist?
I will surely join in the discussion.
How does it feel to be a racist, Underseer? That might be one of the things you could talk about in your new thead: "How does it feel to be a racist?"
Look at that, I even gave you a good title for your new thread.
ruby sparks
Contributor
It looks like an interesting book that could spark a lively discussion. A thread about it might indeed be good, Underseer.
Underseer
Contributor
All he does is discuss the history of racism and how it affects the world today, and you are offended by that.
So tell me: under what circumstances are we allowed to discuss racism without offending you?
- - - Updated - - -
https://www.salon.com/2016/07/18/wh...ask_themselves_during_discussions_about_race/
White fragility refers to the tendency of people in the privileged group to get offended at discussions of injustice.
Simply acknowledging that this happens makes me a racist? Your argument only works logically if you assume that all white people are racist. Is that what you are saying, Bill? Do you believe that all white people are racist, and that any criticism of racism therefore counts as racism against white people?
Underseer
Contributor
Acknowledging the existence of racism triggers too many people. I first need to get one of the fragile ones to tell me under what circumstances I'm allowed to talk about racism.
I suspect you're misinterpreting his post. He's not offended, just doesn't like the preachy writing. Not everything has to be a grandiose political issue.
It's the same problem I had in the past year while trying to learn about North American indigenous. I couldn't find anything that was strictly about indigenous culture, and not political. If that's your bag, fair enough, I just didn't want to listen to people lecture me about colonialism.
There are brands of readers out there who just want to know what happened, not necessarily save the world from evil.
ruby sparks
Contributor
No prob.
Hey, read any other good books lately? Oh fuck I've just failed question 1 (changing the subject). Oh fuck fuck, and question 2 (inappropriate attempted humour).
But seriously, I googled the book, read snatches, browsed reader reviews and Journalistic reviews and it seems like a very worthwhile read. Obviously, it's a touchy subject, all the more so perhaps for white Americans. What happens, I think, is that if you're a white American, it can feel like you personally are being criticised, even if it's not applicable to you, or not much (who among us can claim to have no prejudices or insecurities if our surface is scratched?). I admit I can get defensive, even against my better, cooler judgement if a group I even partly identify with gets criticised. I think as one gets older, at least some of this sort of reaction ebbs away. Hopefully.
It is, to some extent, an accident of history. If things were different, and it wasn't by and large a white-privileged world but a black-privileged world, the same fragilities would be happening in reverse. That's not meant to excuse the fragilities or invalidate one iota the frustration felt by blacks regarding them. Black people have suffered disproportionately to whites. It shouldn't, in an ideal world, be hard for white people to fully and readily acknowledge that without getting fragile about it.
Last edited:
I just did the same. I found it hard to get a sense of the book, but just wanted to mention that by the above I don't want to give the impression I don't think it's any good.
It's probably a fine book, like many others like it. From DZ's summary it just sounded like it took a political stance which DZ himself didn't find elucidating for himself personally. It's like if I, after finishing a Bachelor of Science, read an introductory book on evolution, or had someone explain to me how it discredits creationism. Sure valid arguments are being made, I just have no interest in reading them.
If I was to read a book on racism I wouldn't be interested in hearing that 'racism happens and is bad'. I know racism happens and is bad and if I spent 50 pages having that point reinforced I'd be more annoyed than informed, and so would avoid such a book. Doesn't really discredit the book as not worthwhile, it just means it's coverage isn't as relevant to me as it likely is to some others.
ruby sparks
Contributor
In that case, the book is not for you and you have valid reasons, I think.
I myself would probably be unfamiliar with a heck of a lot of the content and so might be more interested and educated to read it. Plus, being from 'outside the situation' (to at least some extent) I might feel less immediately threatened by any bits I don't like or which are critical of my 'race' (caucasian; bias declared).
I myself would probably be unfamiliar with a heck of a lot of the content and so might be more interested and educated to read it. Plus, being from 'outside the situation' (to at least some extent) I might feel less immediately threatened by any bits I don't like or which are critical of my 'race' (caucasian; bias declared).
Na, I'm with you on that. I'd probably get a lot out of it too, I just sympathise with the view that some authors get the God complex in them and I can find that annoying.
I've read books where that was the case and got a lot out of them, they're just not my ideal book. I prefer methodical detachment. Or at least as much detachment as possible.
Reading a biography of William McKinley. Tends a bit to the hagiographic, but it's still interesting.
Rob
Rob
Found another Paul Johnson work at my local, Intellectuals. Apparently he writes a profile on a bunch of great thinkers in history and looks at how their own lives fit the ideals they espoused. That makes three of his books on my shelves, A History of Christianity, A History of the Jews, and now this one.
I was really impressed with his scholarship in The History of Christianity, which is the only one I've read so far, so when I find other books by him I usually make a point to pick them up. He tends to write from a bit more of a conservative standpoint, but he does seem committed to actually uncovering truths about things, which I like.
Also picked up London Free Press: From the Vault that was just put out by a local author.
Forty bucks for this beast of a book but it was a really cool project and should stand the test of time over the next few decades. The author compiled photos from the early years of our city's free press (about 1870 - 1950). She did a really comprehensive job of it so should be cool to look through.
I was really impressed with his scholarship in The History of Christianity, which is the only one I've read so far, so when I find other books by him I usually make a point to pick them up. He tends to write from a bit more of a conservative standpoint, but he does seem committed to actually uncovering truths about things, which I like.
Also picked up London Free Press: From the Vault that was just put out by a local author.
Forty bucks for this beast of a book but it was a really cool project and should stand the test of time over the next few decades. The author compiled photos from the early years of our city's free press (about 1870 - 1950). She did a really comprehensive job of it so should be cool to look through.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
I've figured that much out on my own. What I wanted to know is if he's a good writer. Does he do that well?
You haven't addressed that at all. At what point have I mentioned anything about being offended? I don't stop reading badly written books because I feel offended. That would imply that I'm offending myself since I'm the one reading it. I just prefer reading books that are well written, and doesn't fall back on tedious amateurish devices to engage the reader.
It's a simple question...is he a good author? Can he write well? Is this such a well written book?
What does this have to do with anything I've said?
DrZoidberg
Contributor
I didn't say it was preachy writing. I was asking if it was. My first impression is yes. I was just wondering if it gets better.
Yup. Totally agree. I picked up a book on Roma culture. Almost nothing about their culture. Almost entirely a book on how much they have been victims and then stuff about how they are just like everybody else. Not interesting for me and not the book I wanted to read.
I also picked up a book on North American Indigenous. Same deal.
There's a theme with these books. Too overloaded with violins. Too little substance imho.
Contrast it to books about wars and military history. Overall, great at giving an in depth description of what went on, from a variety of perspectives. How about a book like that about some contemporary racial issue?
I'm getting allergic to virtue signalling by authors.