What Do Men Think It Means To Be A Man?

[Rhea]

With the caveat that men who are not guilty or who are not part of the problem should not be lumped in with those who are.

A man is harming women through intimidation, suggestive behavior, insults, exclusion (in a workplace), unequal treatment such as pay, or ongoing assault such as grabbing her. He is part of the problem.
Who else on this list is also “part of the problem?”

• A man in the office (or park or restaurant or apartment building) who joins in
• A man who laughs when he sees it
• A man who sees it and doesn’t think it’s a problem
• A man who sees it and does nothing
• A man who sees it and doesn’t even see it.

 

[Rhea]

Because even man E needs to hear this stuff so that he can even become aware of the harm happening in his presence about which he does nothing and therefore makes him part of the problem.

 

[ruby sparks]

With the caveat that men who are not guilty or who are not part of the problem should not be lumped in with those who are.

A man is harming women through intimidation, suggestive behavior, insults, exclusion (in a workplace), unequal treatment such as pay, or ongoing assault such as grabbing her. He is part of the problem.
Who else on this list is also “part of the problem?”

• A man in the office (or park or restaurant or apartment building) who joins in
• A man who laughs when he sees it
• A man who sees it and doesn’t think it’s a problem
• A man who sees it and does nothing
• A man who sees it and doesn’t even see it.

Sure.

- - - Updated - - -

Because even man E needs to hear this stuff so that he can even become aware of the harm happening in his presence about which he does nothing and therefore makes him part of the problem.

yes.

Personally I would have said E was worse than D. Why? Because sometimes, not (for instance) reporting something can be the response for a variety of partly excusable reasons, reasons which are similar for women (or men) not reporting workplace harassment (of any sort, towards any gender, or from/by any gender) even when it is happening to them, never mind others.

 

[Angry Floof]

I thought true masculinity was being able to reach the top shelf.

It's moving heavy things, actually. We just use step stools now. Liberation and all that.

I would think that most men don't need to rethink their on the job behavior, because most men are well behaved at work.

Indeed. Yet some seek to define men and "male culture" by the negative that some men do. We shouldn't do that to any gender, race, etc. We shouldn't have to even write that.

This feels like a restatement of the old saw that "All that is necessary for extremists to flourish is for good moderates to acquiesce and do nothing". Even "well behaved" men don't necessarily try to change the macho bullshit misogyny that is everywhere.

Yes, I would agree that is a very relevant quote to this thread.

Even "well behaved" men don't necessarily try to change the macho bullshit misogyny that is everywhere.

True. But that doesn't mean we should call macho bullshit misogyny "male culture" anymore than we should call inner city gangsta violence or single motherhood "black culture".

No, male culture would be the fact that macho bullshit misogyny is allowed and accepted. This has been explained six ways to sunday for you. It's the soup you live in that allows for you to luxuriate in not really having to think about problems that millions of people face.

You yourself may be gentle as a kitten in your treatment others, but if you wanted to be a macho bullshit misogynist, you're free to be a macho bullshit misogynist with little consequence. At least, any consequences would not likely affect anything important in your life.

You have to be fairly extreme in your macho bullshit misogynist behaviors to suffer backlash that affects your livelihood, kids, security, reputation, health, and - one that makes your obliviousness so much more valuable to violent predators - the loss of a support network.

For numerous women, all it takes is getting attacked by a man to experience such consequences.

It's true that this is changing and creeps are getting #metoo'd left and right, as it should be, but this is just a drop in the bucket of accountability that's due.

As for those inner city single moms? That's not black culture. That's a product of both male and white privilege culture. So is the gangsta violence.

They are all your tribe, like it or not. Stop ignoring and demonizing them.

 

[RavenSky]

Interesting article. I was slightly misled by the title, since it seems the study was more specific (essentially, 'what has changed in light of metoo'). But article titles often mislead somewhat. And at least this one was explained in the subtitle.

So, while the results made sense to me, it was disappointing that so few man had, apparently, changed their outlook specifically because of metoo, and I'm wondering why that would be the case? Is there, for example, something about the metoo movement which does not (for some reasons) significantly help to advance its aims as regards changing men's outlook?

This is obviously a separate question to asking if it is successful in other ways.

I noticed that too, but I looked at it from the perspective of most men don't engage in sexual harassment or sexual assault, so most men don't NEED to change their behavior/views.

I'd be curious to know more details about those who did change their views

 

[RavenSky]

This goes back to what Rhea and Jimmy and others were commenting on:

Most employed men don’t believe they’ve seen sexual harassment at work; three-quarters said they had never been witness to such an incident.

Is this because they don't recognise workplace sexual harassment when they see it? Or because workplace sexual harassment has gone down? Or because it has become more hidden?

And in any case, if 75% say they don't see it happening, that explains why the majority have not changed their behavior.

--------------------------------------------------

Separate part of the survey that I thought was interesting:

49 percent said they always tried to pay when on dates. Younger men, however, were less likely to pay for their dates than their older counterparts, with 12 percent of those 18 to 34 saying they never try to grab the check first.

81% of the men surveyed ages 35 - 64 said they "always" or "often" to the question: "How often do you try to be the one who pays when on a date?" For men 65 and older, the percentage is 80%.

Note the wording of the question: How often do you try to be the one who pays when on a date? They weren't asking the men what women expect; rather what the men themselves expect.

I also note that this behavior drops to 58% for men 18 - 34.

So... exactly what Rhea and Toni and me and at least a half dozen other people have been saying every.single.time certain someones claim that it is the women demanding men pay for their dinners.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

With the caveat that men who are not guilty or who are not part of the problem should not be lumped in with those who are.

A man is harming women through intimidation, suggestive behavior, insults, exclusion (in a workplace), unequal treatment such as pay, or ongoing assault such as grabbing her. He is part of the problem.
Who else on this list is also “part of the problem?”

• A man in the office (or park or restaurant or apartment building) who joins in
• A man who laughs when he sees it
• A man who sees it and doesn’t think it’s a problem
• A man who sees it and does nothing
• A man who sees it and doesn’t even see it.

I am pleased that you excluded [F] - A man who wasn't there.
Sad that you excluded [G] through [K] where you replace the word man with woman.

 

[ruby sparks]

I noticed that too, but I looked at it from the perspective of most men don't engage in sexual harassment or sexual assault, so most men don't NEED to change their behavior/views.

Yes, that could be one reason why some said that metoo of itself had not changed their views, because their views were already against sexual harassment of women. Also, if the question had been more specific (eg has metoo changed your level of awareness as to how common it is?) the numbers may have been different.

 

[ruby sparks]

Is this because they don't recognise workplace sexual harassment when they see it? Or because workplace sexual harassment has gone down? Or because it has become more hidden?.

My guess would be that it's a combination of all three and perhaps other factors. Yes, there will be men who fail to recognise it.

Whatever the numbers or the reasons for them, my perception is that for a variety of reasons, too many men do not fully appreciate the prevalence of it (sexual harassment of women, or the fear of it, workplace or not) and how it adversely affects many women.

Speaking personally, I, for example, as a man, can get on a very crowded, 'standing room only' subway train without, by and large, having to worry about the possibility that in the crush, a stranger will either secretly pinch my bum or rub themselves against me in a sexual way, against my preferences. It's one of my male privileges, to be free of both the experience of this and arguably as importantly, the worry about it. This was not something I always fully appreciated.

 

[ruby sparks]

To add to and elaborate on the above, with specific reference to the OP (and the 'men need to step up' thread)........

In the first instance, I accept that I should be more aware of, and more empathetic to, the 'predicament' of women on crowded subway trains in respect of the above phenomenon.

Now, imagine a scenario in which I notice it happening (which for me is hypothetical). What should I do? Assume I'm talking about pinching or fondling of buttocks and not 'all out rubbing of penis against woman's body'.

First, a few caveats. I accept that I am asking about a specific type of harassment in a particular situation, so I am not asking about all situations. Second, I accept that harassment, and bullying in general, can be perpetrated by all genders on all genders, and also that doing something about it is not just an issue to be addressed to only men. I hope that rules out the need for anyone to point either of these out. Third, I accept that even within the specific situation I am asking about, there could still be a number of variables. I am also, I suppose, talking about situations that pertain in my ('western', British) society, of which I am a member. I am not seeing this incident in, say, Iran or Italy or Brazil or Nigeria, where I might be a foreign visitor.

The first thing to say is that I would need to feel sure that what I thought I saw actually happened, intentionally, and that it was unwelcome. Let's assume all three conditions are, for the sake of argument, fairly clear. For example, I saw it clearly, it was clearly intentional and the woman was clearly discomforted. We might even say that I saw her look reproachfully at the (in this case male) perpetrator.

Is it sufficient to let it go at that? The woman has responded indicating her displeasure and let's say the man stops. As such, one could say that they have 'sorted it out between themselves' and it is not an ongoing thing.

How much am I obligated to do? How about if the woman glances at me and I indicate by expression that I have sympathy for her, perhaps even signalling that I am asking her if she is ok? How about instead or also if the man glances at me and I similarly indicate by expression (perhaps an unfriendly stare) that I am disapproving and keeping an eye on him in case he thinks of doing it again? I would find both of these things easy, with the caveat that the man is not physically, aggressively intimidating (and perhaps intoxicated) in a way that would cause me to worry that glaring at him might provoke an attack on me. Is that caveat an acceptable excuse to limit my intervention?

In a way, this arguably belongs more in the 'men need to step up' thread, but I'm hoping it's related enough to allow crossover into this one.

 

[RVonse]

I dont think the "me too" movement can change evolution. And thank goodness for that. Men are men mostly because of the testosterone and the successful ones figure out early what it takes to reproduce. The last thing your girlfriend wants is for you to start acting more feminine. And most guys learned from experience nice guys really do end up in last place when it comes to what women really want. Nonetheless I have read other places that masculinity is actually falling dramatically. They say testosterone and sperm counts today are 1/2 what they were a generation ago. Probably due to processed foods but not the "me too" movement though.

Furthermore, I believe the causes of the "me too" are viewed irrelevant to the typical male. Take the pussy parades during Tumps inauguration for example. The average guy is not a billionaires like Trump nor is he a powerful Hollywood elite like Harvey W. or Bill Cosby. The movement makes a big deal about bad examples which are simply not typical of the average guy. So it is no wonder the average guy does not care according to the OP. They aren't treating women that way because they cant treat women that way.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I dont think the "me too" movement can change evolution.

If that were true, the word "epiphany" wouldn't exist and addicts couldn't overcome their addiction. "Moments of clarity", when things can be understood through a different lens? A documentary, "Black Fish", destroyed Sea World because it made people aware. When you start talking evolution, it appears to be grasping at straws to support inappropriate behavior.

Men are men mostly because of the testosterone and the successful ones figure out early what it takes to reproduce. The last thing your girlfriend wants is for you to start acting more feminine. And most guys learned from experience nice guys really do end up in last place when it comes to what women really want. Nonetheless I have read other places that masculinity is actually falling dramatically. They say testosterone and sperm counts today are 1/2 what they were a generation ago. Probably due to processed foods but not the "me too" movement though.

Ok, that is less grasp at straws and more or less just going for it. And talking out of both sides of your mouth.

RVonse (one side of mouth): Look, it is evolution baby, men are wired like that.
RVonse (other side of mouth): Women are exaggerating, it just isn't common.

Furthermore, I believe the causes of the "me too" are viewed irrelevant to the typical male.

Yup, hence the #notallmen crap.

Take the pussy parades during Tumps inauguration for example. The average guy is not a billionaires like Trump nor is he a powerful Hollywood elite like Harvey W. or Bill Cosby. The movement makes a big deal about bad examples which are simply not typical of the average guy. So it is no wonder the average guy does not care according to the OP. They aren't treating women that way because they cant treat women that way.

Women are crying out that this shit happens all the time and your response is, "What would you know about it, you aren't a guy."

 

[RVonse]

RVonse (one side of mouth): Look, it is evolution baby, men are wired like that.

Not just the men Jimmy. I think the women are wired like that too. Its the result of our evolution of the successful ancestors who reproduced.

RVonse (other side of mouth): Women are exaggerating, it just isn't common.

What Trump got away with is very uncommon. No average guy has that kind of power. The average guy isnt in a position to even be able to pull off what Trump did.

And the talking out of both sides of your mouth? That would be a women who wants to be pursued in a relationship but who is also deeply offended when approached by the wrong guy.

 

[ruby sparks]

This feels like a restatement of the old saw that "All that is necessary for extremists to flourish is for good moderates to acquiesce and do nothing". Even "well behaved" men don't necessarily try to change the macho bullshit misogyny that is everywhere.

Yes, I would agree that is a very relevant quote to this thread.

Perhaps I am just lucky, but I don't think I live in a society where macho bullshit misogyny is everywhere. But then, phands knows that I feel he sometimes overstates stuff. Or maybe his social context is different to mine.

I do not mean that I am not disappointed by the attitudes and behaviours of many men in my society of course. I often am. And maybe, like phands, I notice certain things (or they are brought to my attention) because like him I have helped to raise daughters.

Yes, it (the part I bolded) is THE relevant quote in many ways. Like most maxims, it can be nuanced. For starters (sorry phands) I do not agree that it is all that is necessary. And it does rely on doing nothing, nothing at all. It is certainly easier to see it as widely valid in that sense. Even then, there may be a tangled and interesting philosophical discussion to be had regarding the morality or otherwise of passivity (and its cousin, neutrality) but it is not a discussion I am necessarily willing to start, because it wouldn't be easy to make a good case that could be recommended for use in real life. I would merely note that such maxims may have reasonable limits in different situations and contexts.

But most of the time, it's more a question of 'what to do?' (or 'how much to do?' or 'where do our reasonable obligations to act start and finish?') in this or that situation.

 

[ruby sparks]

RVonse (one side of mouth): Look, it is evolution baby, men are wired like that.

Not just the men Jimmy. I think the women are wired like that too. Its the result of our evolution of the successful ancestors who reproduced.

The evolved behaviour card can be overplayed and I think you are doing it. Just look at how societies have changed over relatively short timescales that could not realistically have been affected in any significant way by evolution. Heck, just look at how an individual's behaviour and attitudes can change in a lifetime or even a few short years.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

So, back to the actual OP question, what I think it means to be a man (and I fall way short of many):

1. Respect all others
2. Help all that need or ask for it to the best of your ability
3. Take pride in your work and humility in your praise from others
4. Act always for the common good
5. Protect and fight against injustice
6. Understand that strength of mind, strength of character and strength of spirit doesn’t come from a gym
7. Behave the same way alone as you would in a crowd

 

[ruby sparks]

So, back to the actual OP question, what I think it means to be a man (and I fall way short of many):

1. Respect all others
2. Help all that need or ask for it to the best of your ability
3. Take pride in your work and humility in your praise from others
4. Act always for the common good
5. Protect and fight against injustice
6. Understand that strength of mind, strength of character and strength of spirit doesn’t come from a gym
7. Behave the same way alone as you would in a crowd

Good list, imo.

Possibly could be retitled 'what I think it means (or should mean) to be a person', but, hey, that is not a criticism.

 

[Harry Bosch]

So, back to the actual OP question, what I think it means to be a man (and I fall way short of many):

1. Respect all others
2. Help all that need or ask for it to the best of your ability
3. Take pride in your work and humility in your praise from others
4. Act always for the common good
5. Protect and fight against injustice
6. Understand that strength of mind, strength of character and strength of spirit doesn’t come from a gym
7. Behave the same way alone as you would in a crowd

Really good list. I'd add "always stick up for the underdog"

 

[thebeave]

So, back to the actual OP question, what I think it means to be a man (and I fall way short of many):

1. Respect all others
2. Help all that need or ask for it to the best of your ability
3. Take pride in your work and humility in your praise from others
4. Act always for the common good
5. Protect and fight against injustice
6. Understand that strength of mind, strength of character and strength of spirit doesn’t come from a gym
7. Behave the same way alone as you would in a crowd

Really good list. I'd add "always stick up for the underdog"

Er, sometimes the underdog is, well, full of shit.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

So, back to the actual OP question, what I think it means to be a man (and I fall way short of many):

1. Respect all others
2. Help all that need or ask for it to the best of your ability
3. Take pride in your work and humility in your praise from others
4. Act always for the common good
5. Protect and fight against injustice
6. Understand that strength of mind, strength of character and strength of spirit doesn’t come from a gym
7. Behave the same way alone as you would in a crowd

Really good list. I'd add "always stick up for the underdog"

This is a list of how to be a good person. It has nothing to do with being a man. Being a man doesn't mean being a good person.

Confusing this good behaviour with "being a man" or otherwise associating it with gender is an opening for misogyny, even though that is clearly not your intention.