What Do Men Think It Means To Be A Man?

[Toni]

Da fuck?????

I’m not Muslim. Did you think that I was?

You are, I believe, a man. As a man, I believe that you are in a position to exert influence and lead other men towards a less violent way of living. Men are also victims of violence, much stay at the hands of other men. It seems in everybody’s best interests.

I’m not Muslim and while I know a number of Muslims and have Muslim friends, (and Jewish, atheist, agnostic, all different varieties of Christian) generally speaking we are all mostly non-violent and work towards nonviolent means of living, a number include vegetarianism as part of that.

We pretty much gang up to advocate for peace.

(Some) men prefer to gang up and rape. Me and my friends are against that sort of thing.

How about you quit fucking around and actually quit acting like a rape apologist.

So you would say that muslims should denounce Islamic terrorism?

Incidentally, I won't take you not answering as meaning that you don't think it, I'm just curious and trying to get explicit clarity, and even if you do think it, even if you were guilty of what might seem like some sort of double standard, it would be separate from whether men should denounce rape. The two are independent and it's not tit for tat as you say. Me, I would say muslims should denounce Islamic terrorism (and many do) and men should denounce rape. I can't think of a good reason why it would not be a good thing in both cases and of course I'm not talking about 'should' as in coercion.

Look guys: I have an actual life and really don’t care to devote more of it than I already do to responding to whatever gets posted here. I’m also traveling right now and don’t necessarily have the inclination or internet access for this stuff.

This: you must denounce Muslim terrorism if you expect me to quit being a sexist racist rape apologist is a non sequitor and I’m done playing stupid games.

Frankly terrorists of all ideologies are mostly male.

You all have a shit ton of work to do to stop being racist sexist violent rapists, murderers and terrorists. I’d suggest quit apologizing and playing stupid word games and a long, hard look in the mirror for a start.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

You all have a shit ton of work to do to stop being racist sexist violent rapists, murderers and terrorists. I’d suggest quit apologizing and playing stupid word games and a long, hard look in the mirror for a start.

...says the privileged white western woman.

 

[ruby sparks]

So you would say that muslims should denounce Islamic terrorism?

Incidentally, I won't take you not answering as meaning that you don't think it, I'm just curious and trying to get explicit clarity, and even if you do think it, even if you were guilty of what might seem like some sort of double standard, it would be separate from whether men should denounce rape. The two are independent and it's not tit for tat as you say. Me, I would say muslims should denounce Islamic terrorism (and many do) and men should denounce rape. I can't think of a good reason why it would not be a good thing in both cases and of course I'm not talking about 'should' as in coercion.

Look guys: I have an actual life and really don’t care to devote more of it than I already do to responding to whatever gets posted here. I’m also traveling right now and don’t necessarily have the inclination or internet access for this stuff.

This: you must denounce Muslim terrorism if you expect me to quit being a sexist racist rape apologist is a non sequitor and I’m done playing stupid games.

Frankly terrorists of all ideologies are mostly male.

You all have a shit ton of work to do to stop being racist sexist violent rapists, murderers and terrorists. I’d suggest quit apologizing and playing stupid word games and a long, hard look in the mirror for a start.

I don't get it. If you were short of time, 'yes' or 'no' would surely have taken much less of it.

And frankly, boy does your attitude to men suck.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That, and those on the left that call on males to denounce assaulters won't call on Muslims to denounce terrorism. There are plenty of people on both sides of this double standard.

A fair point, and thanks for the correction.

You were LPetrich on Rants'n'Raves around eight years ago, right? I think I remember Koyan from there too.

No. That was not me. I either post under my name or, rarely, under handles that are obviously not names. Anything simply similar to my name is not me.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I didn’t demand you or Loren do anything. You want to be a rape apologist: go ahead. Go ahead and create some artificial condition by refusing to condemn violence against women if people are not as a pre-condition demanding some other group condemn bad behavior/faulty ideology of some other group. Just don’t expect not to be called out on it. Especially if you pretend that violent behavior towards women isn’t a choice that transcends all racial, religious, cultural, socioeconomic groups isn’t a choice. A conscious choice. An invalid choice.

We aren't rape apologists.

We are saying you are applying a double standard here--expecting men to denounce rapists while not expecting Muslims to denounce terrorism. If one should denounce acts done by members of your group then one should denounce acts done by members of your group.

And while we are at it, how about you denouncing rapists that are members of your group? "American" comes to mind.

Da fuck?????

I’m not Muslim. Did you think that I was?

You are, I believe, a man. As a man, I believe that you are in a position to exert influence and lead other men towards a less violent way of living. Men are also victims of violence, much stay at the hands of other men. It seems in everybody’s best interests.

I’m not Muslim and while I know a number of Muslims and have Muslim friends, (and Jewish, atheist, agnostic, all different varieties of Christian) generally speaking we are all mostly non-violent and work towards nonviolent means of living, a number include vegetarianism as part of that.

We pretty much gang up to advocate for peace.

(Some) men prefer to gang up and rape. Me and my friends are against that sort of thing.

How about you quit fucking around and actually quit acting like a rape apologist.

How do you get that I called you a Muslim? I called you an American. Is that not true??

 

[Loren Pechtel]

appearing to condone rape? Which your posts imply.

I don't condone rape. Your insisting that I do is entirely on you.

appearing to condone rape? Which your posts imply.

I don't condone rape. Your insisting that I do is entirely on you.

Then change what you post.

Understand what we post.

Neither of us condones rape. We are objecting to a double standard.

 

[ruby sparks]

Here in Texas, there is a large overlap of conservative males who disparage Muslims for not denouncing terrorism while at the same time voting for rather than denouncing the Pussygrabber-in-Chief. My answer to this question: here in America, certainly.

Right. But I think Loren has in mind the reverse double standard.

As I said, it feels like a slight detour away from the OP, but since it has come up, I'm curious. Are there those (I'm guessing some might call them 'lefties'? 'Feminists'? 'Social Justice Warriors'? It's not clear to me who the target group are) who ask men to denounce rape and sexism but wouldn't, for some reason, ask muslims to denounce Islamic terrorism? That seems to be the gist of the allegation, and in fact it seems to have been aimed at someone here. As far as I can tell.

 

[Toni]

So you would say that muslims should denounce Islamic terrorism?

Incidentally, I won't take you not answering as meaning that you don't think it, I'm just curious and trying to get explicit clarity, and even if you do think it, even if you were guilty of what might seem like some sort of double standard, it would be separate from whether men should denounce rape. The two are independent and it's not tit for tat as you say. Me, I would say muslims should denounce Islamic terrorism (and many do) and men should denounce rape. I can't think of a good reason why it would not be a good thing in both cases and of course I'm not talking about 'should' as in coercion.

Look guys: I have an actual life and really don’t care to devote more of it than I already do to responding to whatever gets posted here. I’m also traveling right now and don’t necessarily have the inclination or internet access for this stuff.

This: you must denounce Muslim terrorism if you expect me to quit being a sexist racist rape apologist is a non sequitor and I’m done playing stupid games.

Frankly terrorists of all ideologies are mostly male.

You all have a shit ton of work to do to stop being racist sexist violent rapists, murderers and terrorists. I’d suggest quit apologizing and playing stupid word games and a long, hard look in the mirror for a start.

I don't get it. If you were short of time, 'yes' or 'no' would surely have taken much less of it.

And frankly, boy does your attitude to men suck.

Nope my attitude towards men is just fine. I like men. I don’t like violent racist misogynistic rape apologists.

Not real fond of those who prefer to play games than to actually quit apologizing and making excuses for misogynistic racist violent rapists.

 

[Toni]

Da fuck?????

I’m not Muslim. Did you think that I was?

You are, I believe, a man. As a man, I believe that you are in a position to exert influence and lead other men towards a less violent way of living. Men are also victims of violence, much stay at the hands of other men. It seems in everybody’s best interests.

I’m not Muslim and while I know a number of Muslims and have Muslim friends, (and Jewish, atheist, agnostic, all different varieties of Christian) generally speaking we are all mostly non-violent and work towards nonviolent means of living, a number include vegetarianism as part of that.

We pretty much gang up to advocate for peace.

(Some) men prefer to gang up and rape. Me and my friends are against that sort of thing.

How about you quit fucking around and actually quit acting like a rape apologist.

How do you get that I called you a Muslim? I called you an American. Is that not true??

My stance is that men need to work on themselves and quit apologizing and making excuses for violent misogynistic rapists and racists. You’re a man. You can do that.

Next thing I see (still on the road btw) I’m being called on to denounce Muslim terrorism. I’m not a Muslim and I’m not a terrorist.

So: da fuck??? It’s a non sequitor.

 

[ruby sparks]

Nope my attitude towards men is just fine. I like men.

Well that isn't what's coming across to me, is all I can say. Ever since I got here I've seen in your posts pretty much routine negative generalising, ott characterisations of 'opponents' and a lack of sympathy and empathy for the opposite sex generally, so when you say 'my attitude towards men is just fine' I hear it as 'my attitude to the "right sort" of men is just fine', which I would not be surprised to hear Jolly Penguin and possibly others that you regularly joust with say about women. To me it's just two different sides to the same unfortunate, depressing coin. Big chips on opposite shoulders. Two flavours of poison. Hey maybe you both have your separate reasons based on differing personal experiences. That's my best guess. Gotta be something like that.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Here in Texas, there is a large overlap of conservative males who disparage Muslims for not denouncing terrorism while at the same time voting for rather than denouncing the Pussygrabber-in-Chief. My answer to this question: here in America, certainly.

Right. But I think Loren has in mind the reverse double standard.

As I said, it feels like a slight detour away from the OP, but since it has come up, I'm curious. Are there those (I'm guessing some might call them 'lefties'? 'Feminists'? 'Social Justice Warriors'? It's not clear to me who the target group are) who ask men to denounce rape and sexism but wouldn't, for some reason, ask muslims to denounce Islamic terrorism? That seems to be the gist of the allegation, and in fact it seems to have been aimed at someone here. As far as I can tell.

You may be right. I'm new enough here that I have little grip on the group dynamics and member histories, and so I certainly may have been missing shades of meaning that you old-timers are picking up.

From my own experience, there does seem to be less urging from the left to ask Muslims to apologize for terrorism vs asking men to apologize for sexism, sexual abuse, assault, and rape -- but not necessarily because they are soft on terrorism. It may be the case that they are already familiar with statements from CAIR, or moderate imams, mullahs, and other Muslim leaders, that they regard most Muslims -- rightly, in my opinion -- as already disowning terrorism in their religion's name.

In other words, if your suspicion is correct, it may well be a post hoc fallacy. The left doesn't demand apologies from Muslims not because the left is soft on terrorism, but because they're aware of the apologies that are issued? Just a thought.

Anyway, sorry if my posts came across as presumptuous.

 

[ruby sparks]

From my own experience, there does seem to be less urging from the left to ask Muslims to apologize for terrorism vs asking men to apologize for sexism, sexual abuse, assault, and rape -- but not necessarily because they are soft on terrorism. It may be the case that they are already familiar with statements from CAIR, or moderate imams, mullahs, and other Muslim leaders, that they regard most Muslims -- rightly, in my opinion -- as already disowning terrorism in their religion's name.

In other words, if your suspicion is correct, it may well be a post hoc fallacy. The left doesn't demand apologies from Muslims not because the left is soft on terrorism, but because they're aware of the apologies that are issued? Just a thought.

Anyway, sorry if my posts came across as presumptuous.

They didn't.

I myself am not clear on what's being suggested.

It could be as you say. The post hoc fallacy thing would seem to better fit the facts, as I partially understand them.

ETA: thinking further....would it not also be the case that it would be very easy, by the same token, to find condemnation of rape and sexism from male sources, which if true would still imply that those who do not urge muslims to denounce but who do urge men to denounce are guilty as 'charged'?

 

[ruby sparks]

My impression of how this is being seen as bearing on the OP issue is that all men are (it is felt) being blamed or held responsible for the actions of a minority of raping/sexist transgressors, and that it is this which is not the case for muslims. Which is maybe slightly different from a not-denouncing thing.

I realise I'm getting quite pedantic. Lol. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this interesting point which Loren brought up in his 'heads exploding' post.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Nope my attitude towards men is just fine. I like men.

Well that isn't what's coming across to me, is all I can say. Ever since I got here I've seen in your posts pretty much routine negative generalising, ott characterisations of 'opponents' and a lack of sympathy and empathy for the opposite sex generally, so when you say 'my attitude towards men is just fine' I hear it as 'my attitude to the "right sort" of men is just fine', which I would not be surprised to hear Jolly Penguin and possibly others that you regularly joust with say about women. To me it's just two different sides to the same unfortunate, depressing coin. Big chips on opposite shoulders. Two flavours of poison. Hey maybe you both have your separate reasons based on differing personal experiences. That's my best guess. Gotta be something like that.

To be fair, I'd expect a woman to have an ax to grind against the wrong sort of male, just I'd expect a black person to have an ax to grind against the wrong sort of person -- namely, a bigot. Trump got roasted, and rightly so, for dragging his heels criticizing the fascisti who marched in Charlottesville, and then drawing a moral equivalency between the two sides, because such equivocations do nothing to remove the problem. In an analogous manner, minimizing sexual assault can be construed as apologist.

I don't have your experience knowing Toni, but my last ex- of two years was both a feminist and she loved the hell out of men ... the right sort of man -- able to listen without taking it personally or getting defensive. We had many discussions about gender issues and though we didn't always see eye-to-eye I didn't take her attacks on male sexual predators as an attack on me. And she didn't generalize about all men.

I don't take Toni's words that way, either, or any other woman's, so long as she does me the courtesy of not lumping me in with the cretins simply for my plumbing.

With the caveat from my last post in mind, that I don't know the interpersonal dynamics of the group veery well, or the poster's history, in mind.

- - - Updated - - -

My impression of how this is being seen as bearing on the OP issue is that all men are (it is felt) being blamed or held responsible for the actions of a minority of raping/sexist transgressors, and that it is this which is not the case for muslims. Which is slightly different from a not-denouncing thing.

I realise I'm getting quite pedantic. Lol. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this interesting point which Loren brought up in his 'heads exploding' post.

It's cool. I don't see it that way, but again, being new here, my opinion should be weighted accordingly.

I don't feel like I'm being held responsible, for what that's worth.

 

[Toni]

Nope my attitude towards men is just fine. I like men.

Well that isn't what's coming across to me, is all I can say. Ever since I got here I've seen in your posts pretty much routine negative generalising, ott characterisations of 'opponents' and a lack of sympathy and empathy for the opposite sex generally, so when you say 'my attitude towards men is just fine' I hear it as 'my attitude to the "right sort" of men is just fine', which I would not be surprised to hear Jolly Penguin and possibly others that you regularly joust with say about women. To me it's just two different sides to the same unfortunate, depressing coin. Big chips on opposite shoulders. Two flavours of poison. Hey maybe you both have your separate reasons based on differing personal experiences. That's my best guess. Gotta be something like that.

Mostly I just don’t like misogynistic racist rape apologists or those who think that we women just need to speak softly and hold their hands and murmur there there we didn’t mean to hurt your poor little feelings or those who think that women or the world at large is just too hard on them and we just don’t understand how hard it is to be called out on that shit.

Men, I like just fine.

 

[ruby sparks]

To be fair, I'd expect a woman to have an ax to grind against the wrong sort of male, just I'd expect a black person to have an ax to grind against the wrong sort of person -- namely, a bigot. Trump got roasted, and rightly so, for dragging his heels criticizing the fascisti who marched in Charlottesville, and then drawing a moral equivalency between the two sides, because such equivocations do nothing to remove the problem. In an analogous manner, minimizing sexual assault can be construed as apologist.

I don't have your experience knowing Toni, but my last ex- of two years was both a feminist and she loved the hell out of men ... the right sort of man -- able to listen without taking it personally or getting defensive. We had many discussions about gender issues and though we didn't always see eye-to-eye I didn't take her attacks on male sexual predators as an attack on me. And she didn't generalize about all men.

I don't take Toni's words that way, either, or any other woman's, so long as she does me the courtesy of not lumping me in with the cretins simply for my plumbing.

With the caveat from my last post in mind, that I don't know the interpersonal dynamics of the group veery well, or the poster's history, in mind.

It's just my tuppenceworth. I will say this though, there seems to be a lot more antagonism between the sexes expressed here, at least in the politics forum (which itself is pretty lively on gender issues apart from when it's not about leftism vs rightism) than at other secular forums I've frequented. And I do find myself agreeing partly with points raised by both 'sides' quite often, and then somehow, the same old same old ding dongs get going in every bloody thread on gender issues. Groundhog Day for axe-grinders. It's like there's very little middle ground here or something.

 

[thebeave]

My impression of how this is being seen as bearing on the OP issue is that all men are (it is felt) being blamed or held responsible for the actions of a minority of raping/sexist transgressors, and that it is this which is not the case for muslims. Which is maybe slightly different from a not-denouncing thing.

I realise I'm getting quite pedantic. Lol. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this interesting point which Loren brought up in his 'heads exploding' post.

That's kind of my impression too. That 9pm curfew shitshow thread talked about putting ALL men on the 9pm curfew, when in actuality its very few men that are the problem. There were quite a few people who seemed to stand by that ALL men curfew rule, despite it being bigoted and quite unfair to the innocents. Imagine on the other hand, if say, we set up a thought experiment where ALL Muslims weren't allowed to fly on jets, out of fear of hijacking the plane a la 9-11. I think that would not go over well with the same people who supported the ALL men curfew rule. The "head exploding" reference is from the resulting cognitive dissonance. Kinda similar to what happened to this poor chap:

Show

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brVOhP5c2IE[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Here in Texas, there is a large overlap of conservative males who disparage Muslims for not denouncing terrorism while at the same time voting for rather than denouncing the Pussygrabber-in-Chief. My answer to this question: here in America, certainly.

Right. But I think Loren has in mind the reverse double standard.

As I said, it feels like a slight detour away from the OP, but since it has come up, I'm curious. Are there those (I'm guessing some might call them 'lefties'? 'Feminists'? 'Social Justice Warriors'? It's not clear to me who the target group are) who ask men to denounce rape and sexism but wouldn't, for some reason, ask muslims to denounce Islamic terrorism? That seems to be the gist of the allegation, and in fact it seems to have been aimed at someone here. As far as I can tell.

I'm talking about both directions.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

My stance is that men need to work on themselves and quit apologizing and making excuses for violent misogynistic rapists and racists. You’re a man. You can do that.

Next thing I see (still on the road btw) I’m being called on to denounce Muslim terrorism. I’m not a Muslim and I’m not a terrorist.

So: da fuck??? It’s a non sequitor.

You're not a man, either.

If you call on men to denounce rapists then you should call on Muslims to denounce terrorism.

 

[ruby sparks]

My impression of how this is being seen as bearing on the OP issue is that all men are (it is felt) being blamed or held responsible for the actions of a minority of raping/sexist transgressors, and that it is this which is not the case for muslims. Which is maybe slightly different from a not-denouncing thing.

I realise I'm getting quite pedantic. Lol. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this interesting point which Loren brought up in his 'heads exploding' post.

That's kind of my impression too. That 9pm curfew shitshow thread talked about putting ALL men on the 9pm curfew, when in actuality its very few men that are the problem. There were quite a few people who seemed to stand by that ALL men curfew rule, despite it being bigoted and quite unfair to the innocents. Imagine on the other hand, if say, we set up a thought experiment where ALL Muslims weren't allowed to fly on jets, out of fear of hijacking the plane a la 9-11. I think that would not go over well with the same people who supported the ALL men curfew rule. The "head exploding" reference is from the resulting cognitive dissonance. Kinda similar to what happened to this poor chap:

Show

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brVOhP5c2IE[/YOUTUBE]

Yes. My guess is that many people would think the hypothetical suggestion to ban all muslims from airplanes would be unreasonably discriminatory (even though many if not most people in the 'west' might, oddly perhaps, feel safer on airplanes). But it's as if openly suggesting one is ok and the other not. How to explain? Is it that men are considered fair game nowadays?

A big part of the answer I think is about prevalence. It seems that an alarmingly high percentage of women have actually experienced either assault, harassment or male sexism. We couldn't say the same about experiencing islamic terrorism. This may be why I feel fine with accepting many women saying they would feel more free in the hypothetical curfew scenario. It is actually more reasonable and rational.

I know i earlier said that when it comes to denouncing, rape/sexism and terrorism might both deserve an equal degree of obligation to denounce (partly because of the severity of outcomes when the latter does rarely happen) but that feels like a slightly separate issue to the question of whether it's reasonable for women to fear being out and about after dark, for example.

ETA: So I find myself saying that yes it would be a double standard to ask men to denounce X but not muslims to deny Y, but that the curfew hypothetical is not sexist.

Suggesting an actual curfew might be though.