What Do Men Think It Means To Be A Man?

[Jolly_Penguin]

Note the irony of Toni making her post complaining that men don't stand up for women, immediately after I posted lots of videos showing them doing so, and nobody standing up for men in similar situations.

 

[Toni]

Note the irony of Toni making her post complaining that men don't stand up for women, immediately after I posted lots of videos showing them doing so, and nobody standing up for men in similar situations.

I don’t think you know the meaning of the word irony.

 

[laughing dog]

Note the irony of Toni making her post complaining that men don't stand up for women , immediately after I posted lots of videos showing them doing so, and nobody standing up for men in similar situations.

The statement "men don't ___" is a generalization, and which means rational thinkers do not interpret it to mean "All men ___" or "Every man_____" , so your observation is based on irrational thinking.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Please note that in the snippet you quoted, I was talking about the author’s perspective. It’s one that I largely—if not 100% share.

I’m sure you are a good person. I’m sure you are a good man and are good to everyone in your life and to strangers and passers by. I believe that.

Well, to be fair, I'm good and bad to people in my life, because as much as I cotton to the right, I've got plenty of folks who will call me a right twat and not be far off the mark. Forgive me if I sounded out like I was riding a high horse.

Nonetheless, even on this forum, there are many male posters who excuse (white) rapists, who don’t think it is a big deal for women and girls to put up with being harassed on the street, on the job, in schools.

I recently stopped posting at a guitarist's forum. Largely populated by old white guys in their 60s, the bullshit, the misogyny, was rank. I get where you're coming from, and yes, we men should pay attention to criticism of our behavior.

I am sure that you would never catcall or harass a woman or slip something in her drink, much less assault her or even insult her.

Of course. And I'm not good with being lumped in with those who would.

But I’m also sure that men and boys influence one another more than women and girls do.

I'm curious why you would think this. Why would girls be less-attentive to role-models than boys? Is there data to support this?

This is an area where I feel that men do need to step up, to influence other men and boys to rest [I assume you meant to write "treat"? -- Thump] girls and women with not just courtesy but with respect. To empathasize with women.

Of course. We can each only do our own part, though.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The statement "men don't ___" is a generalization, and which means rational thinkers do not interpret it to mean "All men ___" or "Every man_____" , so your observation is based on irrational thinking.

Like when somebody says that "women are the weaker sex"? So called "generalization" like that is what you call bigotry when it suits you.

The fact, as displayed in those videos, is that men step up to protect women often, to the point that women are a special category of people that men seek to protect.

Yes, there are bad men that good people should protect others from and we should all stand up to them. Happening to have a penis, just like those bad men do, doesn't make good men blameworthy or responsible for the behavior of the bad men. We can stop the 'generalizing". Or are "women too weak" for that?

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Note the irony of Toni making her post complaining that men don't stand up for women , immediately after I posted lots of videos showing them doing so, and nobody standing up for men in similar situations.

The statement "men don't ___" is a generalization, and which means rational thinkers do not interpret it to mean "All men ___" or "Every man_____" , so your observation is based on irrational thinking.

The statement "men don't" neither contains the qualifier "most", nor "all", which means that it could well be a broad generalization. It simply says "men". Which men? Might it be useful to delineate any subgroup of men one is talking about?

Myself, I'm careful about nuances and caveats, precisely because I don't like lumping diverse masses into convenient groups. It's a Golden Rule sorta thing for me.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

But I’m also sure that men and boys influence one another more than women and girls do.

I'm curious why you would think this. Why would girls be less-attentive to role-models than boys? Is there data to support this?

I think she was saying that men have more influence over men than women do.

 

[laughing dog]

The statement "men don't ___" is a generalization, and which means rational thinkers do not interpret it to mean "All men ___" or "Every man_____" , so your observation is based on irrational thinking.

Like when somebody says that "women are the weaker sex"? So called "generalization" like that is what you call bigotry when it suits you.

You and I have no idea what you are posting about.

The fact, as displayed in those videos, is that men step up to protect women often, to the point that women have become a special category of people that men seek to protect.

Is this an example of a generalization or bigotry or of irrational thinking?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Sure, if we are playing the generalizing game, I can play that too. And I agree that you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

But I’m also sure that men and boys influence one another more than women and girls do.

I'm curious why you would think this. Why would girls be less-attentive to role-models than boys? Is there data to support this?

I think she was saying that men have more influence over men than women do.

Okay, I may have read that wrong ... but given the inclination to look for role-models like oneself, it doesn't seem that odd to me that children should look to their own genders.

 

[Toni]

Well, to be fair, I'm good and bad to people in my life, because as much as I cotton to the right, I've got plenty of folks who will call me a right twat and not be far off the mark. Forgive me if I sounded out like I was riding a high horse.



I recently stopped posting at a guitarist's forum. Largely populated by old white guys in their 60s, the bullshit, the misogyny, was rank. I get where you're coming from, and yes, we men should pay attention to criticism of our behavior.

I am sure that you would never catcall or harass a woman or slip something in her drink, much less assault her or even insult her.

Of course. And I'm not good with being lumped in with those who would.

But I’m also sure that men and boys influence one another more than women and girls do.

I'm curious why you would think this. Why would girls be less-attentive to role-models than boys? Is there data to support this?

This is an area where I feel that men do need to step up, to influence other men and boys to rest [I assume you meant to write "treat"? -- Thump] girls and women with not just courtesy but with respect. To empathasize with women.

Of course. We can each only do our own part, though.

Quick post so I don’t have time to separate out sections: sorry. Yes, I believe that while children learn from adults irrespective of gender, boys learn the most about how to be men from other men. Girls learn about how to be women from other women. This is not to say that boys do not have important things to learn from women about how women should treat men, or that girls don’t learn how they should be treated by men from men. Those are obviously true.

Re: the guitarist forum: did you tell them that the misogyny was objectionable to you? Do you think they would have heard that more from another man than they would a woman?

 

[Toni]

I was taught that it was wrong for me to express anger and outrage.

That is very wrong. You should stand against those who wrong you. I will stand with you and for you on that.

Thanks? But honestly, I don't need your support.

So I learned to stand up for myself.

That isn't what you do here. You attack others, including those who have no connection to those who wronged you except for having the same gender. And you gender everything. You claim I "don't hear you because you are a woman". That is created entirely in your mind, and makes other things you write suspect.

You read a lot of things as attacks which are not actually attacks. And yeah, I think some things are only listened to if they originate from males. Which is the point of my much earlier posts: boys and men listen to other boys and men a lot more than they do girls and women about certain things. Boys and men egg each other on re: catcalls, gang rapes, gropings, rape in general, etc. Not all men, of course. But some boys/men do and if they did not, if they called out such behavior, it would put pressure on the bad actors to act better, just as remaining silent or joining in encourages the bad behavior.

 

[Toni]

Well said. And I feel the same way.

Count me in too. I personally have risked my life to save the life of an elderly woman I had never met, who slipped on some ice while descending the trail down Mt. Whitney (tallest peak in the continental US) 19 years ago. Her son was with her at the time and yelled down to Trail Camp below at dusk for assistance, and myself and about five other random men heeded the call. She slid/tumbled a good 30 feet or so down a steep, but mostly smooth slope before miraculously landing on a small ledge just before a steep and surely fatal drop off. To make a long story short, I was the one who volunteered to make the steep descent with only a headlamp to where she was and guide/push/pull her back to the trail at great risk to myself (she was tied into a rope, I was not). By a little after 1 in the morning, we were back in camp. My story is not particularly unique. Look on youtube and you'll see videos of men risking life and limb to save the lives of random women they've never met. Rarely do you see the same actions with the genders reversed. Yes, there are rapists and abusers among us men, but I don't know how anyone can fail to recognize the good deeds and sacrifices that men have done for women.

That was very courageous of you. I know that I lack the skills and the strength to perform or even attempt such a rescue.

That isn't exactly what I was thinking of when I posted about men standing up. I was specifically thinking of various degrees of sexual assault, misogyny, harassment, etc. that women suffer.

I am in no way trying to diminish your very courageous actions. I am truly in awe. I'm just saying that wasn't what I was thinking of. I'm sure you would have similarly helped a child or a man or anyone you could have helped. I truly respect and admire your actions and your skills and strength. Truly.

I was just specifically talking about something else entirely.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

You read a lot of things as attacks which are not actually attacks.

You make a lot of personal accusations, both explicit and implied. You also make general broad sweeping statements about an entire gender. I interpret both as attacks. And I'm not alone in that, as you've seen 4 others say the same in the last page or so.

And yeah, I think some things are only listened to if they originate from males.

I assure you that nothing you have ever written on here was dismissed, by me at least, just because you are a woman. I recommend more caution in skipping to such conclusions.

Which is the point of my much earlier posts: boys and men listen to other boys and men a lot more than they do girls and women about certain things. Boys and men egg each other on re: catcalls, gang rapes, gropings, rape in general, etc. Not all men, of course. But some boys/men do and if they did not, if they called out such behavior, it would put pressure on the bad actors to act better, just as remaining silent or joining in encourages the bad behavior.

That is true. And if that is all you said, I'd be agreeing with you. Some boys and men do that. And some boys and men call them out on it. More boys and men should do so, and not because women are victimized, but because people are. They should do exactly the same thing for boys who are bullied. We should not be seeing the discrepancy in those videos I posted.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkODKl7jOrE[/youtube]

Speaking of men behaving badly.... I recently saw this again live at a community theatre. Got the song stuck in my head.

 

[ruby sparks]

I'm sticking with ott then.

Of course you are.

Yes, because it is plainly ott. Rearrange the sentence, "good men have not once organized their own mass movement to change themselves and their sons or to attack the mean-spirited, teasing, punching thing that passes for male culture. Not once. Bastards" and you get, '"good men are bastards for never, not once, starting a mass movement to change themselves and their sons or to attack the mean-spirited, teasing, punching thing that passes for male culture".

First, even assuming 'good' men would be obliged to start mass movements in order to tackle the relevant issues, it's factually wrong to say that they haven't done that. It's just incorrect. I could actually just stop analysing there.

But second, saying that male culture consists of mean-spirited teasing and punching is a huge generalisation amounting to a negative stereotype. Third, saying that good men are bastards is just ott of itself.

And that's just one line from one paragraph. The article has a lot of hyperbolic venting, imo. And it does that thing where the writer presumes to speak for all women on the topic of men, which is also something radical feminism tends to do, even though it's only a small part of feminism, which itself is only a small proportion of women.

It's not that there isn't a valid point in there. It's not that I feel personally defensive or offended about such strong opinions or that I necessarily like to consider myself a 'good' man. It's not that I deny anyone the opportunity to vent their anger. It's just that that particular article is demonstrably ott and I'm not going to give that a bye ball just because the writer is female.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Re: the guitarist forum: did you tell them that the misogyny was objectionable to you? Do you think they would have heard that more from another man than they would a woman?

Yeah, my opposition to it was very clear, and very clearly in the minority as well. On a forum which had about 4000 visiting members each day, and perhaps 100 of those posting daily, there were us three or four guys, and two females who posted semi-regularly, who'd speak against it. The majority seemed to go along with the loudmouths without saying much themselves.

On that forum, the misogynists would certainly hear more objections from men, because of numbers and the fact that the two females aren't regular -- one hasn't posted in about a month. I know when one or both of the women spoke up, there was a lot of backtracking.

I doubt those misogynists ran their mouths in real life with anywhere near the vitriol they would sometimes use on the boards. Insinuations about the manhood of guys who rejected their misogyny were made that they wouldn't utter to someone's face. What they heard from males, they rejected as they launched into Masculine Olympics. What they heard from women, I don't think it sank in, but at least they weren't contemptuous of it on the surface, and didn't reject it out of hand.

 

[Toni]

I'm sticking with ott then.

Of course you are.

Yes, because it is plainly ott. Rearrange the sentence, "good men have not once organized their own mass movement to change themselves and their sons or to attack the mean-spirited, teasing, punching thing that passes for male culture. Not once. Bastards" and you get, '"good men are bastards for never, not once, starting a mass movement to change themselves and their sons or to attack the mean-spirited, teasing, punching thing that passes for male culture".

First, even assuming 'good' men would be obliged to start mass movements in order to tackle the relevant issues, it's factually wrong to say that they haven't done that. It's just incorrect. I could actually just stop analysing there.

But second, saying that male culture consists of mean-spirited teasing and punching is a huge generalisation amounting to a negative stereotype. Third, saying that good men are bastards is just ott of itself.

And that's just one line from one paragraph. The article has a lot of hyperbolic venting, imo. And it does that thing where the writer presumes to speak for all women on the topic of men, which is also something radical feminism tends to do, even though it's only a small part of feminism, which itself is only a small proportion of women.

It's not that there isn't a valid point in there. It's not that I feel personally defensive or offended about such strong opinions or that I necessarily like to consider myself a 'good' man. It's not that I deny anyone the opportunity to vent their anger. It's just that that particular article is demonstrably ott and I'm not going to give that a bye ball just because the writer is female.

I understand your objection to that section. It was the part that I feel was a bit problematic, as well. It feels more global than general, if you understand the difference. The women's movement(s) have been much larger and much more public. Men's movements, men's groups? Not so much. In the US, there has been the Million Man's March which dealt with Civil Rights in the US (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Million_Man_March) and the Promise Keepers, an Evangelical Christian group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promise_Keepers). And then there's Robert Bly (https://www.pbs.org/kued/nosafeplace/interv/bly.html) who, btw, is wrong about a lot in the interiew I just linked. But no, there is not any widespread movement of men which has any center on how women are treated by men and by society and how they should address violence against women which is mostly committed by men or violence against men, which again is mostly committed by men.


This may not be what you are doing but what I see quite often is people--mostly male people but not 100%--rejecting something out of hand because they object to one statement, one bit. In fact, I can think of someone who I actually love quite a bit who, in a discussion about day to day personal family/relationship stuff, not political stuff on a forum--will seek out and latch onto one thing that he (in this case, it's a he) wants to argue about instead of actually arguing/discussing the main topic. Because that's what's comfortable for him and the issue itself is not comfortable for him. To debate one minor statement--or part of a statement- instead of actually participating in a discussion where a difficult issue might be resolved or at least better understood. It's not productive and in this particular case, I find it not only frustrating irritating but downright cowardly. My observation is that most men I know have an excruciatingly difficult time saying that they are wrong about something or even saying I'm sorry. This is a relatively small sample comprised of men I know personally and not intended to apply to you or outside of men of my acquaintance.

Everyone likes to think of themselves as a good person. I do. I'm sure you do. I'm sure you are a good person and a good man.

My opinion is that our culture and our society is not doing enough to stop the thousands of ways that it treats women as though they are less than, as though they don't matter. I think the same about how our culture and our society treats children, persons of color and all that it considers 'other' and yes, men. But the topic of this article and this conversation between you and me and a few others is about how men treat women.

It might be useful for you to discuss specifically what your objection to that paragraph is.

 

[ruby sparks]

I understand your objection to that section. It was the part that I feel was a bit problematic, as well. It feels more global than general, if you understand the difference. The women's movement(s) have been much larger and much more public. Men's movements, men's groups? Not so much. In the US, there has been the Million Man's March which dealt with Civil Rights in the US (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Million_Man_March) and the Promise Keepers, an Evangelical Christian group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promise_Keepers). And then there's Robert Bly (https://www.pbs.org/kued/nosafeplace/interv/bly.html) who, btw, is wrong about a lot in the interiew I just linked. But no, there is not any widespread movement of men which has any center on how women are treated by men and by society and how they should address violence against women which is mostly committed by men or violence against men, which again is mostly committed by men.


This may not be what you are doing but what I see quite often is people--mostly male people but not 100%--rejecting something out of hand because they object to one statement, one bit. In fact, I can think of someone who I actually love quite a bit who, in a discussion about day to day personal family/relationship stuff, not political stuff on a forum--will seek out and latch onto one thing that he (in this case, it's a he) wants to argue about instead of actually arguing/discussing the main topic. Because that's what's comfortable for him and the issue itself is not comfortable for him. To debate one minor statement--or part of a statement- instead of actually participating in a discussion where a difficult issue might be resolved or at least better understood. It's not productive and in this particular case, I find it not only frustrating irritating but downright cowardly. My observation is that most men I know have an excruciatingly difficult time saying that they are wrong about something or even saying I'm sorry. This is a relatively small sample comprised of men I know personally and not intended to apply to you or outside of men of my acquaintance.

Everyone likes to think of themselves as a good person. I do. I'm sure you do. I'm sure you are a good person and a good man.

My opinion is that our culture and our society is not doing enough to stop the thousands of ways that it treats women as though they are less than, as though they don't matter. I think the same about how our culture and our society treats children, persons of color and all that it considers 'other' and yes, men. But the topic of this article and this conversation between you and me and a few others is about how men treat women.

It might be useful for you to discuss specifically what your objection to that paragraph is.

I thought I already did that? Discuss specifically what I thought was ott about that paragraph I mean. And you're right, of course I'm not picking up on one small aspect of the article and ignoring the rest. To me, pretty much the whole article was hyperbolic venting, and the paragraph in question is a follow-on from two paragraphs telling us about a rant aimed initially at her husband. I must admit, I did feel a bit sorry for the husband. It sounds to me (I'm guessing) that her anger may have been triggered by something to do with the Blasey Ford thing, and maybe the husband said something awry about that or something else to set her off. That's what she implies.

Now, do I see the writer as some sort of man-hater? No. At least I hope not. I don't know her personally of course. Do I think that she has an underlying point? Yes, but it's so overstated that I end up thinking the article shot itself in the foot.

I take the point about Men's Movements being smaller, for a variety of reasons, but that wasn't her point. Or if it was, it was exceptionally badly expressed.

ps I'm sure that you're a good person too.

 

[Toni]

I understand your objection to that section. It was the part that I feel was a bit problematic, as well. It feels more global than general, if you understand the difference. The women's movement(s) have been much larger and much more public. Men's movements, men's groups? Not so much. In the US, there has been the Million Man's March which dealt with Civil Rights in the US (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Million_Man_March) and the Promise Keepers, an Evangelical Christian group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promise_Keepers). And then there's Robert Bly (https://www.pbs.org/kued/nosafeplace/interv/bly.html) who, btw, is wrong about a lot in the interiew I just linked. But no, there is not any widespread movement of men which has any center on how women are treated by men and by society and how they should address violence against women which is mostly committed by men or violence against men, which again is mostly committed by men.


This may not be what you are doing but what I see quite often is people--mostly male people but not 100%--rejecting something out of hand because they object to one statement, one bit. In fact, I can think of someone who I actually love quite a bit who, in a discussion about day to day personal family/relationship stuff, not political stuff on a forum--will seek out and latch onto one thing that he (in this case, it's a he) wants to argue about instead of actually arguing/discussing the main topic. Because that's what's comfortable for him and the issue itself is not comfortable for him. To debate one minor statement--or part of a statement- instead of actually participating in a discussion where a difficult issue might be resolved or at least better understood. It's not productive and in this particular case, I find it not only frustrating irritating but downright cowardly. My observation is that most men I know have an excruciatingly difficult time saying that they are wrong about something or even saying I'm sorry. This is a relatively small sample comprised of men I know personally and not intended to apply to you or outside of men of my acquaintance.

Everyone likes to think of themselves as a good person. I do. I'm sure you do. I'm sure you are a good person and a good man.

My opinion is that our culture and our society is not doing enough to stop the thousands of ways that it treats women as though they are less than, as though they don't matter. I think the same about how our culture and our society treats children, persons of color and all that it considers 'other' and yes, men. But the topic of this article and this conversation between you and me and a few others is about how men treat women.

It might be useful for you to discuss specifically what your objection to that paragraph is.

I thought I already did that? Discuss specifically what I thought was ott about that paragraph I mean. And you're right, of course I'm not picking up on one small aspect of the article and ignoring the rest. To me, pretty much the whole article was hyperbolic venting, starting with two paragraphs telling us about a rant aimed initially at her husband and then segueing to the global option. I must admit, I did feel a bit sorry for the husband. It sounds to me (I'm guessing) that her anger may have been triggered by something to do with the Blasey Ford thing, and maybe the husband said something awry to set her off. That's what she implies.

Now, do I see the writer as some sort of misandrist? No. Do I think that she has an underlying point? Yes, but it's so overstated that I end up thinking the article shot itself in the foot.

It's really a shame that men still think that women must be nice at all times, must never express anger, no matter how righteous, at the misogyny and violence directed at women by men.

That must be so tough for men to hear.