What does it mean for something to be "logically possible"?

[untermensche]

This is a stupid dodge which proves you have nothing to say about the subject at hand.

You know, proving something logically possible.

Like trying to prove purely imaginary concepts are logically possible.

I can understand why you want to dodge this completely.

You brought it up, unsolicited, in this very thread. It was a bit of a non sequitur anyway, but it's something everyone can picture and is easily proved, unlike abstract concepts like infinity and the shape of the universe, so I'm using it as a gauge to see if any progress can be made. Can you admit that you made a mistake and that your statement was wrong?

What I said was that between two points in space a smallest distance exists.

And that includes two points outside a sphere.

If you disagree start a thread about your incredible discovery.

 

[untermensche]

...Infinity is not the kind of thing that can be shown (which you likely agree to but for the wrong reason). It would be like saying show me the referent of the numeral three. It's not the kind of concrete thing -- that can be shown, but not because of nonexistence. They have properties and therefore do exist.

My point exactly.

Infinity is not a thing at all. It is an imaginary concept. Like the Easter Bunny.

There are not two classes of things: that which is real and that which is imaginary.

Wrong.

There is a clear dichotomy between the two.

Nothing is partially real and partially imaginary.

 

[bilby]

You can show me banknotes or coins that some people use to help keep track of money; But you can't show me money. Money is purely conceptual. Like infinity. And both are very useful.

If you think money is PURELY imaginary then send me all your money.

Are you really this fucking thick? I don't think that money is any more imaginary than infinity is. BOTH are imaginary; NEITHER is 'PURELY' imaginary.

It shouldn't matter since it is all PURELY imaginary.

You really, really, need to stop pretending that you have a clue on this subject.

The value we attach to bills and coins is not imaginary.

Then show it to me. Where is it? Can you fill a bucket with it? What makes a US dollar bill more valuable than a $100 bill from a game of Monopoly, or a hundred trillion Zimbabwe dollar bill? Show me the non-imaginary thing that does that.

To claim money is PURELY imaginary is an incredibly bad argument.

Because it is not true.

That is EXACTLY MY FUCKING POINT.

Money is imaginary, as is infinity. NEITHER is PURELY imaginary; Your ability to grasp that this is true of money, but not of the equally conceptual infinity, shows an astonishing lack of imagination on your part.

To claim infinity is PURELY imaginary is an incredibly bad argument. Indeed, it is EXACTLY as bad as to claim money is PURELY imaginary.

And yet you stand by one claim and will defend it to the death; While taking an equally intransigent but completely opposite stance on the other, exactly analogous, claim.

Madness is doing the same thing over and over again, and claiming opposite results.

You cannot show me one real infinity or demonstrate that any real thing is somehow infinite.

To think infinity is in any way real is extreme irrationality.

You cannot show me one real money, or demonstrate that any real thing is somehow money. But for some reason you are happy to think that money is real in some way. WHY??? And why not apply the EXACT SAME reasoning to the equally imaginary concept of infinity?

 

[untermensche]

If you think money is PURELY imaginary then send me all your money.

Are you really this fucking thick? I don't think that money is any more imaginary than infinity is. BOTH are imaginary; NEITHER is 'PURELY' imaginary.

What part of the bills in your wallet are imaginary?

You have no argument.

You are a waste of time with this nonsense.

I can show anybody with eyes some money. It is not imaginary.

But you cannot show anybody infinity.

It does not exist in the real world.

 

[bilby]

Are you really this fucking thick? I don't think that money is any more imaginary than infinity is. BOTH are imaginary; NEITHER is 'PURELY' imaginary.

What part of the bills in your wallet are imaginary?

You have no argument.

You are a waste of time with this nonsense.

I can show anybody with eyes some money. It is not imaginary.

But you cannot show anybody infinity.

It does not exist in the real world.

Banknotes are not imaginary. MONEY is imaginary. Money isn't banknotes, and (in the case of monopoly money, or Confederate dollars, or Pre-euro French Francs, for example) banknotes need not be money.

You have no argument.

You are a waste of time with this nonsense.

You cannot show anybody money. it is EXACTLY as imaginary as infinity. A piece of paper with ∞ written on it is just as much infinity as a dollar bill is money. Both are graphical representations of an abstract concept; Neither is the concept represented by the paper or the printing thereon. Both are real; Both are imaginary; Neither is PURELY imaginary.

 

[untermensche]

What part of the bills in your wallet are imaginary?

You have no argument.

You are a waste of time with this nonsense.

I can show anybody with eyes some money. It is not imaginary.

But you cannot show anybody infinity.

It does not exist in the real world.

Banknotes are not imaginary. MONEY is imaginary. Money isn't banknotes, and (in the case of monopoly money, or Confederate dollars, or Pre-euro French Francs, for example) banknotes need not be money.

You have no argument.

You are a waste of time with this nonsense.

You cannot show anybody money. it is EXACTLY as imaginary as infinity. A piece of paper with ∞ written on it is just as much infinity as a dollar bill is money. Both are graphical representations of an abstract concept; Neither is the concept represented by the paper or the printing thereon. Both are real; Both are imaginary; Neither is PURELY imaginary.

Yes a banknote is money in physical form.

Go away.

You have nothing.

 

[ryan]

That you believe something that is purely imaginary could be possible just shows you are irrational.

I still don't understand this. Where do you get the idea that all imaginary mathematical models of the universe must be impossible before they are realized?

I don't understand what you are saying no less have that idea.

Mathematical models make predictions, and sometimes they are right. Their predictions start totally in the mind as it is applied to the real world to explain, describe and predict.

I believe the concept of infinity is purely an imaginary concept.

Then the concept of the Big Bang is too since it is only in our minds and nobody has ever seen it.

And I believe it is irrational to try to apply imaginary concepts to the real world. It is irrational to claim infinity could actually exist.

I don't care who does it.

If they are doing it they are behaving irrationally.

You saying that some people are doing it is not an argument in any way showing it is rational to do it.

You brought up the Big Bang. The BB is theoretical the same way that the new model is theoretical. Nobody has seen the Big Bang or an infinite past to the universe. In both cases there are mathematical models that make possible explanations of observations and make predictions.

Why do you think it is rational to apply an imaginary concept to the universe? What gives you that right?

Rationalism can be quite flexible depending on how you set up your argument. It is very much about applying logic or math to the universe.

 

[bilby]

Banknotes are not imaginary. MONEY is imaginary. Money isn't banknotes, and (in the case of monopoly money, or Confederate dollars, or Pre-euro French Francs, for example) banknotes need not be money.

You have no argument.

You are a waste of time with this nonsense.

You cannot show anybody money. it is EXACTLY as imaginary as infinity. A piece of paper with ∞ written on it is just as much infinity as a dollar bill is money. Both are graphical representations of an abstract concept; Neither is the concept represented by the paper or the printing thereon. Both are real; Both are imaginary; Neither is PURELY imaginary.

Yes a banknote is money in physical form.

Go away.

You have nothing.

Then a piece of paper with ∞ written on it is infinity in physical form.

You can't have it both ways.

Go away.

You have nothing.

 

[untermensche]

Mathematical models make predictions, and sometimes they are right. Their predictions start totally in the mind.

The models are tools to make predictions.

They approximate reality. They do not replicate it.

Then the concept of the Big Bang is too since nobody has ever seen it.

A thing is considered real if you have direct evidence of it or evidence of it's effects.

We do not see gravity but it is real. As real as the Big Bang.

Why do you think it is rational to apply an imaginary concept to the universe? What gives you that right?

Rationalism can be quite flexible depending on how you set up your argument. It is very much about applying logic or math to the universe.

You can apply models, which are more than mathematics, they are explanations too.

But the models only approximate reality. Approximate it well enough to make real world predictions.

Reality is not a model.

Trying to apply things that only apply to human models to the real thing is irrational as well.

 

[untermensche]

Yes a banknote is money in physical form.

Go away.

You have nothing.

Then a piece of paper with ∞ written on it is infinity in physical form.

You can't have it both ways.

Go away.

You have nothing.

A symbol for infinity is not something infinite. It is something finite.

You are desperate and grasping for straws.

You have thought none of this out, clearly.

 

[bilby]

Then a piece of paper with ∞ written on it is infinity in physical form.

You can't have it both ways.

Go away.

You have nothing.

A symbol for infinity is not something infinite. It is something finite.

A dollar bill is not money; It is a piece of paper and ink. It is merely a symbol representing money - money is an abstract concept, like infinity is. And like infinity, money is real (and vice versa - like money, infinity is real).

You are desperate and grasping for straws.

You have thought none of this out, clearly. You have also thought none of this out clearly, equally clearly.

 

[untermensche]

A symbol for infinity is not something infinite. It is something finite.

A dollar bill is not money; It is a piece of paper and ink.

You are desperate and grasping for straws.

You have thought none of this out, clearly.

mon·ey
ˈmənē/
noun
noun: money

a current medium of exchange in the form of coins and banknotes; coins and banknotes collectively.
"I counted the money before putting it in my wallet"
synonyms: cash, hard cash, ready money; More
the means, the wherewithal, funds, capital, finances, (filthy) lucre;
coins, change, specie, silver, currency, bills, (bank) notes;
informaldough, bread, bucks, loot, greenbacks, moola, dinero, shekels, mazuma;
archaicpelf
"have you got money for the train fare?"
formal
sums of money.
plural noun: moneys; plural noun: monies
"a statement of all moneys paid into and out of the account"
the assets, property, and resources owned by someone or something; wealth.
"the college is very short of money"
synonyms: wealth, riches, fortune, affluence, assets, liquid assets, resources, means
"she married him for his money"

This definition of money disagrees with you.

 

[bilby]

A dollar bill is not money; It is a piece of paper and ink.

You are desperate and grasping for straws.

You have thought none of this out, clearly.

mon·ey
ˈmənē/
noun
noun: money

a current medium of exchange in the form of coins and banknotes; coins and banknotes collectively.
"I counted the money before putting it in my wallet"
synonyms: cash, hard cash, ready money; More
the means, the wherewithal, funds, capital, finances, (filthy) lucre;
coins, change, specie, silver, currency, bills, (bank) notes;
informaldough, bread, bucks, loot, greenbacks, moola, dinero, shekels, mazuma;
archaicpelf
"have you got money for the train fare?"
formal
sums of money.
plural noun: moneys; plural noun: monies
"a statement of all moneys paid into and out of the account"
the assets, property, and resources owned by someone or something; wealth.
"the college is very short of money"
synonyms: wealth, riches, fortune, affluence, assets, liquid assets, resources, means
"she married him for his money"

This definition of money disagrees with you.

Then perhaps I should debate a dictionary - clearly it would be a better thinker than you are

Your ability to find a definition that clearly is not the definition I am using is not even amusing. You are becoming even more pathetic - a truly impressive feat, given your starting point.

Money is debt; Debt is money. Money is an abstract concept that can be represented by banknotes, coins, computerized data, promissory notes, Cowrie shells, IOUs, or even the memory of a trusted individual. None of these representations are the thing represented.

 

[ryan]

The models are tools to make predictions.

They approximate reality. They do not replicate it.

So how do you know that this particular math model recently made of an infinite past is false/impossible?

Then the concept of the Big Bang is too since nobody has ever seen it.

A thing is considered real if you have direct evidence of it or evidence of it's effects.

We do not see gravity but it is real. As real as the Big Bang.

There is also evidence from the effects of the new model the same way as for the BB theories.

You can apply models, which are more than mathematics, they are explanations too.

But the models only approximate reality. Approximate it well enough to make real world predictions.

So, again, why is this model false by allowing infinity to exist while others like for the BB are rational?

 

[untermensche]

Then perhaps I should debate a dictionary - clearly it would be a better thinker than you are

Perhaps you should GET a dictionary.

Your ability to find a definition that clearly is not the definition I am using is not even amusing.

If your definition of money is something that exists only in your imagination then you are using your ignorance of word usage as an argument.

I can exchange MY money for all kinds of things.

It is real.

It is not like infinity. Something that is not real in any way.

No matter how loudly you want to claim in your ignorance it is.

 

[untermensche]

So how do you know that this particular math model recently made of an infinite past is false/impossible?

It is possible when there is evidence showing it is possible.

It is not possible because of mere speculation. That is not what makes things possible.

 

[bilby]

Perhaps you should GET a dictionary.

Your ability to find a definition that clearly is not the definition I am using is not even amusing.

If your definition of money is something that exists only in your imagination then you are using your ignorance of word usage as an argument.

I can exchange MY money for all kinds of things.

It is real.

It is not like infinity. Something that is not real in any way.

No matter how loudly you want to claim in your ignorance it is.

OK, so you don't have a clue about infinity, and now we can add money to the list of things you don't have a clue about.

That's good to know.

 

[ryan]

So how do you know that this particular math model recently made of an infinite past is false/impossible?

It is possible when there is evidence showing it is possible.

It is not possible because of mere speculation. That is not what makes things possible.

But there is evidence that supports their claim, in the same way the BB is supported.

 

[untermensche]

Perhaps you should GET a dictionary.



If your definition of money is something that exists only in your imagination then you are using your ignorance of word usage as an argument.

I can exchange MY money for all kinds of things.

It is real.

It is not like infinity. Something that is not real in any way.

No matter how loudly you want to claim in your ignorance it is.

OK, so you don't have a clue about infinity, and now we can add money to the list of things you don't have a clue about.

That's good to know.

This is what it looks like when an idiot stops even trying.

Infinity is like the Tooth Fairy. Like the Easter Bunny.

Something that has no real world existence.

Only a very big idiot would say it is like money. Something we use everyday and know has real world existence.

- - - Updated - - -

It is possible when there is evidence showing it is possible.

It is not possible because of mere speculation. That is not what makes things possible.

But there is evidence that supports their claim, in the same way the BB is supported.

What evidence of infinity are you talking about?

Please be specific.

 

[bilby]

This is what it looks like when an idiot stops even trying.

It's OK, we noticed. There was no need to point it out to us.

And really, nobody will mind that you are not trying anymore; In fact, we will probably hardly notice.