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What, exactly, is CRT?

The key point I took from the few who actually worked on defining it is that it describes "systemic" problems. As my politics are focused on the individual, "systemic" means little to me unless convinced otherwise. Still, I've heard many people say "systemic" before CRT became a big issue. Is there anything special about CRT versus anyone else who talks about systemic racism?

Such conversations were really not taken seriously in the American legal profession until 15 years of CRT scholarship forced recognition of the issue.
 
The key point I took from the few who actually worked on defining it is that it describes "systemic" problems. As my politics are focused on the individual, "systemic" means little to me unless convinced otherwise. Still, I've heard many people say "systemic" before CRT became a big issue. Is there anything special about CRT versus anyone else who talks about systemic racism?

Such conversations were really not taken seriously in the American legal profession until 15 years of CRT scholarship forced recognition of the issue.
Also, one can't separate systemic issues from individual issues. That's sorta the point. The way JH uses this here implies that they are unrelated, or that addressing systemic issues won't help individuals, when the opposite is the case.

One can focus on the individual all you want, but individuals are all living with the 'system' that is being downplayed or ignored (usually for political reasons).
 
You can't do that because there aren't any. The "battle" is an invention, conjured to scare middle-class whites into voting Republican in 2022. Educators oppose these laws because we oppose censorship and because these laws are crafted so vaguely as to stifle all conversations about "divisive topics", not because CRT has much of anything to do with primary education.

Um, okay.

This post ^^ seems like a self-own to me.

As is the handwringing over the post-modernism concept of "no longer do objective facts exist." This is the basis of most of what passes for support for modern conservative positions, which are based on lies. People who live in glass houses shouldn't start rock fights.

The lie that you have to believe about CRT ending life as we know it, or at the minimum, destroying proper patriotic secondary and primary education, is the one that the government is trying to replace white males with females and other genetically inferior people. This goes hand-in-hand with the lie that the economy is a zero-sum game where everyone who gets ahead means that others have to be knocked back.
 
Is there some foul play going on with CRT?

"something rotten in Denmark"? etc.


So, I see threads asking why there is CRT hysteria, and see threads mocking people for opposing CRT.

What I don't see is a hard concrete steel-manned definition of CRT.

For me to know if it is as good or as bad as people say, I think I need to know more about what it is.

So, what exactly is it?
You should read a primer on Critical Race Theory written by a scholar if you want an accurate exposition you can rely on.

There probably is no such "primer" other than something from a CRT-debunker. No one so far has given any. And everything claiming to tell us what CRT is (other than CRT-refuter-debunkings) contains mostly gibberish and lists of names of CRT "scholars" but not saying what their conclusions are; or if they do pretend to say the conclusions, it's in language which seems intended to confuse anyone trying to figure it out, or language intended to discourage any clarification.

The main problem with CRT is the CRT "scholars" themselves, or their sympathizers, unable to speak clearly, or those who cite them or offer a website which is supposed to explain it, but not actually quoting from the source and explaining what it says, or what it means, and just pretending that the words are saying something coherent.


This is a political debate forum, and nobody here is likely to be a scholar of Critical Race Theory, so it's not a great place to ask.

Yes this is a good place to ask. You don't have to be a scholar or a member of the school to read what these say and then quote this to someone else and give reasons to agree or disagree with it.

Instead of giving excuses why we can't know what it is, why not just recognize that CRT is something intentionally vague and obscure, and this is why no one can pin it down, or give a succinct summary of it. What we've been given so far is mostly gibberish. Someone is deliberately being elusive, pretending to be scholarly and informative, but really is engaging in sophistry, perhaps even pseudoscience.


Even if everything an internet rando tells you about CRT is completely accurate, you do not actually know that.

Right, there's no way to know, because the genuine CRT scholarly source itself (if it exists) is mostly gibberish, and there's no way to know if it's accurate, or even what it means.

What about the following scholarly source:

Critical race theory is an academic concept that is more than 40 years old. The core idea is that race is a social construct, and that racism is not merely the product of individual bias or prejudice, but also something embedded in legal systems and policies.

The basic tenets of critical race theory, or CRT, emerged out of a framework for legal analysis . . .
. . . https://www.edweek.org/leadership/what-is-critical-race-theory-and-why-is-it-under-attack/2021/05
So far this is all gibberish. It could mean something, but without further explanation it is only gibberish. And there's never any explanation beyond this "embedded in legal systems and policies" verbiage which by itself is just gibberish.

. . . a framework for legal analysis in the late 1970s and early 1980s created by legal scholars Derrick Bell, Kimberlé Crenshaw, and Richard Delgado, among others.
This is the list-of-eminent-scholars verbiage. Giving us this list of scholars does not tell us what the theory is, nor telling us that it's from the 1970s or 80s (though there's no harm in some historical background, but limiting it to names of the theorists and the dates when they theorized does not tell us what the theory is).

All the presentations of CRT spend more space giving us these lists of names and names of institutions etc. than the "basic tenets of critical race theory" that "emerged out" of the scholarly and legal frameworks and so on.



And the above citation, when all is said and done, turns out to really be just another debunking of CRT like that of right-wing alarmists, rather than a real CRT source. E.g., it says:

All these different ideas grow out of longstanding, tenacious intellectual debates. Critical race theory emerged out of postmodernist thought, which tends to be skeptical of the idea of universal values, objective knowledge, individual merit, Enlightenment rationalism, and liberalism—tenets that conservatives tend to hold dear.

This statement is a PUT-DOWN of CRT, from a negative critic. No CRT promoter or scholar would give the above description of CRT. Postmodernism is never cited by anyone as the basis for their theory. No one ever cites postmodernism except postmodernism-bashers and -debunkers.


Why is CRT impossible to define?

In fact, maybe CRT is problematic precisely because it's like postmodernism, and also like "Trickle-Down Economics" and other schools which are known to us only from their detractors, or from enemies of the school, who publish and lecture and propagandize against the controversial school, while at the same time there is no one willing to step forth and say "I'm a postmodernist (or trickle-down economist or critical race theorist) and here is what our school teaches . . ."

The proponents of the school are AWOL while their negative critics are everywhere preaching against the hated school which is denounced as something destroying our society.

Everyone speaks as though the CRT proponents do exist, but in reality those proponents seem to be hiding somewhere, maybe ashamed to step forth and present their ideas to us. Where is there a website from them? It's absent, just like there's nothing from the postmodernists and the trickle-down economists.

Like this "You should read a primer on Critical Race Theory written by a scholar" when there is no such thing. Or
There is one thing we know for certain. These frothing conning Republicans claiming to be upset by it don't have the slightest idea what it is.
Maybe they don't, but why? Who does have an idea what it is? If the CRTers won't tell us, then how are the paranoids supposed to be corrected?

CRT is a rather old academic theory from the 70s, regarding systemic racism in the US. From my understanding, it was initially used to instruct law students so, I assume, when they were representing Black clients they would understand the racist elements in the system.

So CRT really does exist -- it's not a paranoid delusion -- but maybe it's so obscure that we can't find the CRTers themselves to tell us what it is, because they're a tiny clique of specialist academics not publishing anything for the general public. But even so the above says that CRT is used to decide real legal cases, so why shouldn't a CRTer somewhere step forth and defend the theory against this assault from so many critics? Why don't we hear from them? All we're getting is someone telling us to go get a primer or other official CRT source, and yet there is doesn't seem to be any, because the experts are AWOL.

So, maybe what we're hearing about this is paranoia, from the CRT-bashers, but how can they be blamed for their paranoia, if the ones they're bashing are all in hiding instead of stepping forth to present their great new insights to the general public? If they act sinister, how can we blame those who are saying "Something stinks here!"???
 
That is such a weird claim to me. Basically you're saying "it can't be a real academic school of thought, people can only describe it in terms of scholars, books, and technical language". Well, yeah. Duh. What else were you expecting? Several posts have discussed the content, not just form of the school, but if these were couched in terms you didn't understand or found too obscure, that's probably because we're trying to explain something that isn't exactly entry-level. There are plenty of concrete applications of CRT, but none of those "are CRT". What CRT is, is that loose collection of ideas, expressed in those books, by those people, in those terms. Yes, it is really a theoretical school, not a political slogan. Though it has inspired much political action, art, and scholarly study, it is at is core a loose collection of academic ideas and assumptions, none of which actually originated in CRT so much as coaslescing there to solve a particular set of challenges in American law and eventually the social sciences.

Also, the experts are AWOL? What does that even mean? Alas that Derrick Bell cannot come back from the dead to educate you, but Kimberlé Krenshaw has been a straight up media darling, over the last few months. If you've mananged to not get CRT right from the horse's mouth, you've been watching the wrong kind of news methinks.
 
CRT, just another new age religion. Utterly incoherent to bamboozle and confuse the flock. It’s defined in the same way as the holy trinity, incoherent mumbo jumbo but people like to pretend they get it.
 
CRT, just another new age religion. Utterly incoherent to bamboozle and confuse the flock. It’s defined in the same way as the holy trinity, incoherent mumbo jumbo but people like to pretend they get it.

What is it that you find difficult to understand, specifically? Complicated and incoherent are different things. CRT is not necessarily simple, but it is coherent.
 
Cathode RY Tube?

I listed to a black academic on NPR who wrote a book about it. It depends on who you listen to. It can sound like awareness of American history and appreciating of how we got to this point, or it can sound like black vengeance and reverse racism. The latter is what conservatives are responding to.

The idea that blacks built built the county singlehandedly and whites just sat back, I have heard this.

or me it is an imbalanced view that goes from the old racist perspective by majority white to an equally unbalanced view with n no positives itives for what was was the majority culture.

To me it just sounds like a talking point for blacks.

There were local news reports of it being taught in public schools in the region. Part of it was allegedly sending kids home to aggressively root out racism in the white family. Creating a white self loathing in kids.
 
CRT, just another new age religion. Utterly incoherent to bamboozle and confuse the flock. It’s defined in the same way as the holy trinity, incoherent mumbo jumbo but people like to pretend they get it.

What is it that you find difficult to understand, specifically? Complicated and incoherent are different things. CRT is not necessarily simple, but it is coherent.

If it were, I would imagine that people could show the incoherence through argument. I'm just seeing accusations without substance, and without understanding the basic principles.
 
CRT, just another new age religion. Utterly incoherent to bamboozle and confuse the flock. It’s defined in the same way as the holy trinity, incoherent mumbo jumbo but people like to pretend they get it.

What is it that you find difficult to understand, specifically? Complicated and incoherent are different things. CRT is not necessarily simple, but it is coherent.

If it were, I would imagine that people could show the incoherence through argument. I'm just seeing accusations without substance, and without understanding the basic principles.

Usually, when I ask, they just post memes. Or video clips of some sensitivity training they find opprobrious. I find this incoherent.
 
There probably is no such "primer" other than something from a CRT-debunker. No one so far has given any.
How about this?

Critical Race Theory: An Introduction (third edition)
by Richard Delgado and Jean Stefancic

https://www.amazon.com/Critical-Race-Theory-Third-Introduction/dp/147980276X

Fine, how about summarizing it.

Or, pick out 1 or 2 of the main points and explain them. That's what no one wants to do. Everyone cites some supposed source, naming the author or the experts, but no more. Why can't they name one main point, in plain language, tell us what it means and why we should agree with it.

This is the meaning of AWOL, or "out to lunch" -- When someone seriously asks "What is CRT and why should we agree with this theory?" all the CRT disciples go off into hiding, vanish, POOF! gone.

This tells us that CRT is either gibberish, or it's something no reasonable person would agree with. So far that's the best conclusion to reach.
 
There probably is no such "primer" other than something from a CRT-debunker. No one so far has given any.
How about this?

Critical Race Theory: An Introduction (third edition)
by Richard Delgado and Jean Stefancic

https://www.amazon.com/Critical-Race-Theory-Third-Introduction/dp/147980276X

Fine, how about summarizing it.

Or, pick out 1 or 2 of the main points and explain them. That's what no one wants to do. Everyone cites some supposed source, naming the author or the experts, but no more. Why can't they name one main point, in plain language, tell us what it means and why we should agree with it.

This is the meaning of AWOL, or "out to lunch" -- When someone seriously asks "What is CRT and why should we agree with this theory?" all the CRT disciples go off into hiding, vanish, POOF! gone.

This tells us that CRT is either gibberish, or it's something no reasonable person would agree with. So far that's the best conclusion to reach.

The basics of CRT have been outlined over and over in this thread. You can't fully understand the theory just by reading a summary - because you cannot understand any theory just by reading a summary - but the basics of CRT aren't too hard to grasp if you think about them for a few seconds; the claims being made really aren't all that radical if you've been keeping up with the progress of the social sciences over the 20th century generally.

Race is fundamentally a social construct, situated within political frameworks that produce inequities between various demographic groups created by cultural categorizations of personal difference based on heritage and entrenched by collective social behaviors and institutions such as the legal system, and the social inequalities thus created both reflect and create the divide. While individual feelings and motivations may be of key interest to individuals, "racism" per se is more than just the some of many individuals' emotions; rather, it is instituted in macro social structures that individuals only encounter the way they usually encounter social institutions: as a small part of a larger system. You are not "family", but you experience family, because you were raised to expect certain familial structures definitions as a result of your culture. You are not "Christianity", but you experience it daily as a social institution that is difficult to avoid. Similarly, you are not "racism". But you were raised in, and live in, a society strongly subdivided by racial categories that have been reinforced by other macro social insitutions such as religion, law, and economics. Because these systems are not in your control, wishing away racism as an individual will be insufficient to address racial inequlaities; they have to be addressed on a collective level, and through the lens of the institutions that reinforce them.

That means that if law is to be reformed into something that alleviates rather than exacerbating racial divisions, that will require careful analysis of how race became engrained and codified in law to begin with, and positive action to undo or reformulate all affected areas of law. This will not occur in a vacuum, as law does not exist in a vacuum but exists in constant tension with other macro social insitutions such as gender and religion, and the effectiveness of any planned legal intervention will be partially dependent on the cultural and social norms accepted and understood by the various actors who play a role in that system. These individuals should not be expected to all share identical experiences and perspectives either, given that their life experiences and enculturation can't be assumed to have been identical, and other forms of social categorization such as age, gender, economic class, and so forth heavily influence both how you are understood by others and consequently shape the messages you receive as you are growing up and becoming an adult member of your society. Also because of this, no one individual is really capable of experiencing and understanding the whole system of race unless through conversation with those who have experienced it from different vantage points, making diversity of experience critical in academic and legal contexts. Finally, given the variability inherent to social constructs, a legal framework of emancipation from racism must always be polyvalent, adaptable, and capable of understanding how a legal situation may have been uniquely created by conditions a more general theory of law and race may not have anticipated; it also needs to be ready for changes over time, as racial categories tend to shift in scope and connotation over time in response to the social and political circumstances of the moment.

Whether you "agree" with CRT is irrelevant; as with any academic theory, it's more relevant to ask about whether it is a logically coherent construct that agrees with the observed facts we encounter in the world than whether people "like" it or not.

I predict you will call this "meannigless gibberish" or some such phrasing, and that's fine. Obviously, you can't be made to understand something you actively desire not to understand. You might as well try to impress a Muslim with pork recipes as convince a social conservative that there is merit in questioning macro social institutions. I'm happy to have a conversation about the actual content of CRT, but only if it is substantial; there's no good reason to engage in a dumb argument about my motivations, character, or vague aspersions about a theory you aspirationally fail to understand.
 
This tells us that CRT is either gibberish, or it's something no reasonable person would agree with. So far that's the best conclusion to reach.

You forgot the third position that is making the rounds that is the predominant one in the media; CRT is indoctrinating our children to hate white people and to hate 'murica. And there are plenty of "reasonable" people who believe that.

Your two criteria by the way can apply to a lot of things. String Theory, Euler's Theorem, partial differential equations the list can go on. Just because you can't explain something simply doesn't mean it's gibberish. I'll rephrase what I said earlier - the definition of CRT is irrelevant to how it is being used in conversations today. Opponents of CRT can't provide a meaningful definition either, so the debate is as benign (but nowhere near enjoyable as) which is better, Star Wars or Star Trek.
 
I hate all the US racists and closeted racists already.

People like Trump.

I don't need any theories to hate them.
 
I'm still trying to get my head around the belief that although school teachers in America need to pay for their own teaching supplies, George Soros is somehow able to fund this huge indoctrination conspiracy right down to elementary school with zero financial paper trail. If I were a teacher, I would at least try to use some of this CRT funding to buy some fucking crayons.
 
Opponents of CRT can't provide a meaningful definition
That’s because it really is just gibberish.

so the debate is as benign (but nowhere near enjoyable as) which is better, Star Wars or Star Trek.

If it is benign, why are white school kids and white employees obliged to sit through hours of of being lectured about how privileged and racist they are ?
 
Race is fundamentally a social construct, situated within political frameworks that produce inequities between various demographic groups created by cultural categorizations of personal difference based on heritage and entrenched by collective social behaviors and institutions such as the legal system, and the social inequalities thus created both reflect and create the divide.

Looking at this point:

The fact that race is a social construct seems very easy to demonstrate by the way American society treats biracial and multiracial people, and how people who do not have strong visual cues the the construct of “race” are deemed to exist in a differnet category.

I can’t think of a more concrete proof that race is a social construct than the differing treatment of biracal people who have different skin tones - including full siblings.
 
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