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What, exactly, is CRT?

Good grief. Why is it this difficult to defend CRT? The obvious flaw - and why it’s utterly useless - is that CRT requires one conclusion to everything: racism. It is not falsifiable. (PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG) It is religion. Why posters on a supposed skeptics board embrace it is an exemplar of cognitive dissonance.

CRT propaganda reminds me of the now deceased preacher (I forget his name) on tv who used to use white boards with flow charts and entity relationship diagrams and what not to prove god’s existence. He’d bamboozle the audience with the same woo gibberish as CRT and make it all sound very plausible. I think his daughter took over for a while. Fascinating stuff.
 
Good grief. Why is it this difficult to defend CRT? The obvious flaw - and why it’s utterly useless - is that CRT requires one conclusion to everything: racism. It is not falsifiable. (PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG) It is religion. Why posters on a supposed skeptics board embrace it is an exemplar of cognitive dissonance.

CRT propaganda reminds me of the now deceased preacher (I forget his name) on tv who used to use white boards with flow charts and entity relationship diagrams and what not to prove god’s existence. He’d bamboozle the audience with the same woo gibberish as CRT and make it all sound very plausible. I think his daughter took over for a while. Fascinating stuff.

Amazing how these right-wingers are now experts on what critical race theory is.
 
Good grief. Why is it this difficult to defend CRT? The obvious flaw - and why it’s utterly useless - is that CRT requires one conclusion to everything: racism. It is not falsifiable. (PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG) It is religion. Why posters on a supposed skeptics board embrace it is an exemplar of cognitive dissonance.

CRT propaganda reminds me of the now deceased preacher (I forget his name) on tv who used to use white boards with flow charts and entity relationship diagrams and what not to prove god’s existence. He’d bamboozle the audience with the same woo gibberish as CRT and make it all sound very plausible. I think his daughter took over for a while. Fascinating stuff.

Amazing how these right-wingers are now experts on what critical race theory is.

Well, you know how much they like reading, especially college-level reading.

I'd be more impressed if they could successfully describe the theory themselves, as opposed to endlessly querying what it is.
 
translation (of CRT promoter-babbler): I'm ashamed to quote any of the alleged answers "up thread" (i.e., answering whether CRT is falsifiable/verifiable/testable), because they are obviously gibberish, and if any of them did answer this I would want to quote them, even repeat them (which is legitimate to do a 2nd or 3rd time for added emphasis), in order to prove I'm right, which obviously I'm not, as demonstrated by my inability to quote those aforementioned links/posts/answers --

-- OR (more appropriately), which links/posts/answers I will now quote if they really do exist, because they deserve to be repeated if they have any merit.

Good point. How do you falsify CRT?
 
Amazing how these right-wingers are now experts on what critical race theory is.

Well, you know how much they like reading, especially college-level reading.

I'd be more impressed if they could successfully describe the theory themselves, as opposed to endlessly querying what it is.

Like, I get that they don't want to "lend it legitimacy" but they don't even seem to be able to copy and paste an answer from a site that does profess to have a description
 
The demand for "falsification" is a little bit strange, as CRT is more an approach or a paradigm than a single hypothesis or claim. This is a bit like demanding that the theory of evolution or the ecological approach to field biology be "falsified". It isn't that scientific paradigms aren't subject to empirical review, but they tend to be the sum of many parts rather than a single concrete claim that could be reasonably tested against a single case study. Any of the basic ideas that make up CRT could and are subject to scientific scrutiny, but it's not going to be as simple as "CRT claims x, y, and z, which are supported by these three studies I'm linking to." Rather than trying to do both things at once, discussing potential routes to falsification and also trying to "prove" that CRT is "factual" as per popular misunderstandings of how science works, in this post, I'm going to restrict myself solely to the question of how one might go about "falsifying CRT" in a manner that would be convincing to a social scientist. Throughout, I will make reference to the short list of core ideas that I presented in post #61 of this thread, asking in each case: what might it mean to "falsify" the implied claims or set of claims attached to each major point.

--------


1. Race is a biological fiction, but a social reality.

One would need in this case to establish either that race was a genuine biological phenomenon, or contrarily, while conceding that there is no biological basis for race, by showing that it is nevertheless not a social phenomenon but rather created by some other agent.

2. The "realities" of race are the measurably different social and economic circumstances that affect people depending on how they are categorized by others
I'm not sure what would constitute falsification in this case; it's more an implication of the first premise. But you could demonstrate that the entire premise is incoherent if you were able to demonstrate that race is not, in fact, a consistent predictor of socioeconomic status.

3. These inequities aren't the sole work of individuals, so they cannot be addressed solely by educating individuals about race issues as seen by scientists
There are a number of ways one could falsify this premise. The most obvious would be to show that an individual who formerly held racist views eliminated the social markers of racial inequalities in their environment simply by altering their perspective in response to new information. Alternatively, on a macro scale, you could examine the impacts of real social programs that have attempted to end systemic racism through education programs, and evaluate whether and how they succeeded or failed in ending systemic racial inequalities within the communities that attempted them. You might also attack this one sideways, by demonstrating that within certain environments such as medical, legal, or sociological academic institutions in which a certain degree of education about racial issues can be assumed on the part of nearly every participant, such inequlaities do not exist to begin with.

4. Systematic racism both helped to create, and was eventually further created by, massive sociocultural institutions such as the legal, punitive, and labor systems of the colonial world.
You could either demonstrate that some other factor created racial categories and inequlities, or demonstrate that the impact of colonialism at some point ended, leaving no legal or social legacy behind at some point before racial inequalities somehow, for reasons unconnected to that history in any way, re-emerged.


5. Ending those systems requires a substantial reimagining of the social, political, and legal institutions that they left behind.
Another one that is more or less a logical implication of the previously established premises, rahter than an original claim, and therefore difficult to falsify except by connection . One could easily disagree that this approach to solving the issue would be ffective, and if you could demonstrate that previous straegies involving imaginative approaches to systemic reform were either ineffective or only as effective as the more individualistic approaches of the 1960s, that critique would have some teeth.

6. Also left behind are people, whose intergenerational situations vary widely but tend to reflect severe racial inequities
You would need to demonstrate that all people from a certain racial background have exactly equivalent prospects of success in society regardless of their starting economic position, or contarily, that inheriting a social position partially created by the racial minority status of your ancestors does no impact your socioeconmic status in any meaningful way.

7. Analyzing these disparities becomes complicated by the intersectional boundaries between race, gender, wealth, and other forms of social categorization that may greatly impact any one individual's life
You would in short need to disprove intersectional effects on individual success. There's no quick way to do this, since several dozen factors have been identified as hav ing intersectional effects over the last few decades. But to take the popular case of gender, for instance, you would need to show that the impact of race is an independent causative factor from that of gender, for instance by demonstrating that gender disadvantage is level across gender categories,and vice versa, that the impact of gender disparity is unaffected by perceived race.

8. Meaningful solutions to systemic racism need to focus on the systemic before the individual, but take the variability of individual circumstances into account
Like 2, 5, and 8, this is more a logical implication of the previous premises han an original claim if any of the supporting premises leading to it were shown to be invalid, thiis proposed approach to solutions would likewise be called into question.

9. The narratives and categories we use to talk about racial issues are also products of this suspect past, and many may need to be altered or retired.
This one tends to be pursued case by case, and I don't know how you would falsify it except to do the same thing in reverse, looking at cases where a given common system of categorization or routinized explanation is accused of bearing a historical racial bias, and demonstrating in each case that no racial bias or systemic racialized effects are caused by it.

10. Greater diversity in the academic and legal professions is a necessary element of reform, as experiences of race differ widely and often in non-overlapping ways.
You would need to demonstrate that projects of systemic reform concerning race are equally effective whether or not persons of color are involved in those projects.

--------

So, there you go. Aside from those which are heavily contingent on other CRT premises, all of the above are theoretically "falsifiable" to various derees of meaningfulness. Get to it, I suppose?
 
Good grief. Why is it this difficult to defend CRT? The obvious flaw - and why it’s utterly useless - is that CRT requires one conclusion to everything: racism. It is not falsifiable. (PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG) It is religion. Why posters on a supposed skeptics board embrace it is an exemplar of cognitive dissonance.

CRT propaganda reminds me of the now deceased preacher (I forget his name) on tv who used to use white boards with flow charts and entity relationship diagrams and what not to prove god’s existence. He’d bamboozle the audience with the same woo gibberish as CRT and make it all sound very plausible. I think his daughter took over for a while. Fascinating stuff.

That was good ole Gene Scott. RIP my crazy friend.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Scott
 
Good grief. Why is it this difficult to defend CRT? The obvious flaw - and why it’s utterly useless - is that CRT requires one conclusion to everything: racism. It is not falsifiable. (PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG) It is religion. Why posters on a supposed skeptics board embrace it is an exemplar of cognitive dissonance.

CRT propaganda reminds me of the now deceased preacher (I forget his name) on tv who used to use white boards with flow charts and entity relationship diagrams and what not to prove god’s existence. He’d bamboozle the audience with the same woo gibberish as CRT and make it all sound very plausible. I think his daughter took over for a while. Fascinating stuff.

That was good ole Gene Scott. RIP my crazy friend.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Scott

YES!! It took me a while to track him down and I just found him on the google. His second wife (I thought it was his daughter) Melissa does the same thing and is based in Glendale, California.
 
Good grief. Why is it this difficult to defend CRT? The obvious flaw - and why it’s utterly useless - is that CRT requires one conclusion to everything: racism. It is not falsifiable. (PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG) It is religion. Why posters on a supposed skeptics board embrace it is an exemplar of cognitive dissonance.

CRT propaganda reminds me of the now deceased preacher (I forget his name) on tv who used to use white boards with flow charts and entity relationship diagrams and what not to prove god’s existence. He’d bamboozle the audience with the same woo gibberish as CRT and make it all sound very plausible. I think his daughter took over for a while. Fascinating stuff.

That was good ole Gene Scott. RIP my crazy friend.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Scott

OMG, Gene Scott. My dad used to watch him "religiously". He used to sell some water additive or something like that. I remember my dad offering our insurance guy a drink of it. Insurance guy took a sniff and said "I'm not drinking that. It smells like motor oil."
 
Seriously? All of those questions are answered up thread.

Please, at least pretend that you are paying attention to the thread in which you are posting.

translation: It has no use, it makes no predictions, it's not falsifiable/verifiable/testable, and it's just a political ideology masquerading as science.

Translation: I am incapable of scrolling up, or clicking the links that take me to previous posts in this thread, so I am going to pretend that CRT is what I decided it was before I entered this thread.

translation (of CRT promoter-babbler): I'm ashamed to quote any of the alleged answers "up thread" (i.e., answering whether CRT is falsifiable/verifiable/testable), because they are obviously gibberish, and if any of them did answer this I would want to quote them, even repeat them (which is legitimate to do a 2nd or 3rd time for added emphasis), in order to prove I'm right, which obviously I'm not, as demonstrated by my inability to quote those aforementioned links/posts/answers --

-- OR (more appropriately), which links/posts/answers I will now quote if they really do exist, because they deserve to be repeated if they have any merit.

From the first damn page of the thread, and before you posted:
So, I see threads asking why there is CRT hysteria, and see threads mocking people for opposing CRT.

What I don't see is a hard concrete steel-manned definition of CRT.

For me to know if it is as good or as bad as people say, I think I need to know more about what it is.

So, what exactly is it?

Concrete it is not; it's more a very general paradigm of thought that has evolved over the last forty or so years through a network of publications by scholars starting arguably with the work of Derrick Bell and a loose network of his students and collegaues at Harvard and other elite American universities, especially Kimberle Crenshaw of UCLA. Its principal ideas are that the social theory of racism implicit in the social planning and legal framework of anti-racism employed through the 1960s (ie., that racism is primarily an individual choice made by socially dysfunctional persons primarily due to scientific ignorance on their part) was inadequate to address deeper, systemic forms of white supremacy that had been hard-baked into American law from the country's founding. CRT tends to focus on systemic, especially legal systems of racial discrimination, and has generally encouraged acceptance and synthesis of burgeoning areas of ethnic studies such as intersectionality theory and social contructivist models of semiotic study. CRT originated in the legal field, but had immediate implications in higher education, in part because the limited nature of tenured university appointments was a critical point of concern and activism for Bell and his students. CRT has thus been well known to those in the academic legal profession as well as to university administrators generally since about the mid-90's. Also around that time, other social sciences started taking an interest in the framework and occasionally interweaving it with the other major theoretical models of the day, for instance, within political science, sociology, and anthropology. CRT also has a historic though indirect connection to the discipline of Ethnic Studies and attempts to install the same at American universities.

All this should be carefully distinguished from what is meant by CRT in contemporary political dialogue; since 2019, essentially any potentially controversial material on race has been at risk of the accusation from the American political Right. This was exacerbated by the publication of the 1619 Project, a journalistic meta-project aimed at educating the public on the history of American slavery, published in connection with the quatercentenary of the advent of Transatlantic slave market. A number of the people who worked on the project also considered CRT to be a major guiding theoretical principle in their research, leading to the accusation that the project "is CRT". Most conservatives believe that a primary tenet of CRT is race essentialism, the idea that race is a biological reality inextricably connected to your personality and beliefs, and that individual Whites should therefore be held personally responsible for the existence of white supremacy, regardless of their views or actions. Whites, in short, cannot help but institute racism, as it is in their blood rather than their mind that the impulse to discriminate arises. While this has nothing to do with the academic school described above and in fact directly contradicts its core idea of race as a social construct, if you don't understand the accusation that is being leveled, nothing about the resulting controversy will make any sense.

Please scroll up next time.
 
The demand for "falsification" is a little bit strange, as CRT is more an approach or a paradigm than a single hypothesis or claim. This is a bit like demanding that the theory of evolution or the ecological approach to field biology be "falsified". It isn't that scientific paradigms aren't subject to empirical review, but they tend to be the sum of many parts rather than a single concrete claim that could be reasonably tested against a single case study. Any of the basic ideas that make up CRT could and are subject to scientific scrutiny, but it's not going to be as simple as "CRT claims x, y, and z, which are supported by these three studies I'm linking to." Rather than trying to do both things at once, discussing potential routes to falsification and also trying to "prove" that CRT is "factual" as per popular misunderstandings of how science works, in this post, I'm going to restrict myself solely to the question of how one might go about "falsifying CRT" in a manner that would be convincing to a social scientist. Throughout, I will make reference to the short list of core ideas that I presented in post #61 of this thread, asking in each case: what might it mean to "falsify" the implied claims or set of claims attached to each major point.

--------




One would need in this case to establish either that race was a genuine biological phenomenon, or contrarily, while conceding that there is no biological basis for race, by showing that it is nevertheless not a social phenomenon but rather created by some other agent.

I'm not sure what would constitute falsification in this case; it's more an implication of the first premise. But you could demonstrate that the entire premise is incoherent if you were able to demonstrate that race is not, in fact, a consistent predictor of socioeconomic status.

3. These inequities aren't the sole work of individuals, so they cannot be addressed solely by educating individuals about race issues as seen by scientists
There are a number of ways one could falsify this premise. The most obvious would be to show that an individual who formerly held racist views eliminated the social markers of racial inequalities in their environment simply by altering their perspective in response to new information. Alternatively, on a macro scale, you could examine the impacts of real social programs that have attempted to end systemic racism through education programs, and evaluate whether and how they succeeded or failed in ending systemic racial inequalities within the communities that attempted them. You might also attack this one sideways, by demonstrating that within certain environments such as medical, legal, or sociological academic institutions in which a certain degree of education about racial issues can be assumed on the part of nearly every participant, such inequlaities do not exist to begin with.

4. Systematic racism both helped to create, and was eventually further created by, massive sociocultural institutions such as the legal, punitive, and labor systems of the colonial world.
You could either demonstrate that some other factor created racial categories and inequlities, or demonstrate that the impact of colonialism at some point ended, leaving no legal or social legacy behind at some point before racial inequalities somehow, for reasons unconnected to that history in any way, re-emerged.


5. Ending those systems requires a substantial reimagining of the social, political, and legal institutions that they left behind.
Another one that is more or less a logical implication of the previously established premises, rahter than an original claim, and therefore difficult to falsify except by connection . One could easily disagree that this approach to solving the issue would be ffective, and if you could demonstrate that previous straegies involving imaginative approaches to systemic reform were either ineffective or only as effective as the more individualistic approaches of the 1960s, that critique would have some teeth.

6. Also left behind are people, whose intergenerational situations vary widely but tend to reflect severe racial inequities
You would need to demonstrate that all people from a certain racial background have exactly equivalent prospects of success in society regardless of their starting economic position, or contarily, that inheriting a social position partially created by the racial minority status of your ancestors does no impact your socioeconmic status in any meaningful way.

7. Analyzing these disparities becomes complicated by the intersectional boundaries between race, gender, wealth, and other forms of social categorization that may greatly impact any one individual's life
You would in short need to disprove intersectional effects on individual success. There's no quick way to do this, since several dozen factors have been identified as hav ing intersectional effects over the last few decades. But to take the popular case of gender, for instance, you would need to show that the impact of race is an independent causative factor from that of gender, for instance by demonstrating that gender disadvantage is level across gender categories,and vice versa, that the impact of gender disparity is unaffected by perceived race.

8. Meaningful solutions to systemic racism need to focus on the systemic before the individual, but take the variability of individual circumstances into account
Like 2, 5, and 8, this is more a logical implication of the previous premises han an original claim if any of the supporting premises leading to it were shown to be invalid, thiis proposed approach to solutions would likewise be called into question.

9. The narratives and categories we use to talk about racial issues are also products of this suspect past, and many may need to be altered or retired.
This one tends to be pursued case by case, and I don't know how you would falsify it except to do the same thing in reverse, looking at cases where a given common system of categorization or routinized explanation is accused of bearing a historical racial bias, and demonstrating in each case that no racial bias or systemic racialized effects are caused by it.

10. Greater diversity in the academic and legal professions is a necessary element of reform, as experiences of race differ widely and often in non-overlapping ways.
You would need to demonstrate that projects of systemic reform concerning race are equally effective whether or not persons of color are involved in those projects.

--------

So, there you go. Aside from those which are heavily contingent on other CRT premises, all of the above are theoretically "falsifiable" to various derees of meaningfulness. Get to it, I suppose?

You did not sum it up with a single pithy phrase, amenable to being used as a sound bite on Fox News, therefor your post will be entirely ignored by those who need to read it the most. Thanks for the effort anyway!
 
The demand for "falsification" is a little bit strange, as CRT is more an approach or a paradigm than a single hypothesis or claim. This is a bit like demanding that the theory of evolution or the ecological approach to field biology be "falsified".

Falsification is a standard test of a theory. A theory must be falsifiable or it's worthless. To be of any use a theory must make a claim which can be tested. Theory of evolution? Show the lack of relationship between closely related creatures.

One would need in this case to establish either that race was a genuine biological phenomenon, or contrarily, while conceding that there is no biological basis for race, by showing that it is nevertheless not a social phenomenon but rather created by some other agent.

I'm not sure what would constitute falsification in this case; it's more an implication of the first premise. But you could demonstrate that the entire premise is incoherent if you were able to demonstrate that race is not, in fact, a consistent predictor of socioeconomic status.

1) If you can't say what would constitute falsification then either you don't understand the theory well enough or the theory is bunk.

2) Anyway, you just busted it. Race is not a predictor of socioeconomic status once you control for other factors related to socioeconomic status.

4. Systematic racism both helped to create, and was eventually further created by, massive sociocultural institutions such as the legal, punitive, and labor systems of the colonial world.
You could either demonstrate that some other factor created racial categories and inequlities, or demonstrate that the impact of colonialism at some point ended, leaving no legal or social legacy behind at some point before racial inequalities somehow, for reasons unconnected to that history in any way, re-emerged.

You're making a false premise here. Legacy effects do not mean there is racism. I don't think there's anyone that disagrees that racism was an important aspect of the creation of the problem. Removing the driving force doesn't automatically undo the previous difference.

6. Also left behind are people, whose intergenerational situations vary widely but tend to reflect severe racial inequities
You would need to demonstrate that all people from a certain racial background have exactly equivalent prospects of success in society regardless of their starting economic position, or contarily, that inheriting a social position partially created by the racial minority status of your ancestors does no impact your socioeconmic status in any meaningful way.

Once again, you are saying legacy effects are racism.

7. Analyzing these disparities becomes complicated by the intersectional boundaries between race, gender, wealth, and other forms of social categorization that may greatly impact any one individual's life
You would in short need to disprove intersectional effects on individual success. There's no quick way to do this, since several dozen factors have been identified as hav ing intersectional effects over the last few decades. But to take the popular case of gender, for instance, you would need to show that the impact of race is an independent causative factor from that of gender, for instance by demonstrating that gender disadvantage is level across gender categories,and vice versa, that the impact of gender disparity is unaffected by perceived race.

You have it backwards here--this is one that can't be proven, not one that can't be disproven. If you find other factors that produce the observed effects then you've busted the theory.
 
I'm baffled as to the message think you're communicating by posting long blocks of quotation, interspersed by comments along the lines of "Here you have said <a thing you obviously didn't say, given that the quoted post is right there>" I have no idea what the sentence "you are saying legacy effects are racism" even means. It doesn't sound like a complete sentence, let alone my sentence. A lot of your sentences here are really weird. I've no idea how to "show a lack of relationship between closely related creatures" either, it sounds like an obvious contradiction in terms.

This part:

Race is not a predictor of socioeconomic status once you control for other factors related to socioeconomic status.

is the only part of your post that I can clearly comprehend, and it's an interesting claim. What empirical data can you present that would support this surprising assertion? This certainly doesn't seem to cohere with the data from the sources most generally known.

I don't think there's anyone that disagrees that racism was an important aspect of the creation of the problem. Removing the driving force doesn't automatically undo the previous difference.
Here, I think you're on the verge of actually understanding CRT. This is entirely correct: the effects of racism cannot be undone by simply removing, say, the enslavement of an entire nation based on their racial categorization. Especially if the system that governs law and economics in their country generally favors, say, members of society who hold considerable material capital as opposed to those who do not, thus not only failing to ameliorate the gap but in fact actively widening the gap as the generations roll on. Before you know it, you have an entrenched system of systemic racism in which people are enormously impacted by their perceived race, through no fault of their own and not necessarily because of the nasty feelings of their neighbors either. While genuine antipathy toward racial minorities is by no means extinct, indeed is a daily lived reality for most Americans, at the same time, any theory of racism based solely on individual negative motions fails to explain such institutional and macro-systemic effects, which is why when faced with a practical problem, the liberation of the legal system from such situations of "legacy" bias and suffering, a more intrapersonal approach was devised to account for it. That is the paradigm we call CRT.
 
I'm baffled as to the message think you're communicating by posting long blocks of quotation, interspersed by comments along the lines of "Here you have said <a thing you obviously didn't say, given that the quoted post is right there>" I have no idea what the sentence "you are saying legacy effects are racism" even means. It doesn't sound like a complete sentence, let alone my sentence. A lot of your sentences here are really weird. I've no idea how to "show a lack of relationship between closely related creatures" either, it sounds like an obvious contradiction in terms.

This part:

Race is not a predictor of socioeconomic status once you control for other factors related to socioeconomic status.

is the only part of your post that I can clearly comprehend, and it's an interesting claim. What empirical data can you present that would support this surprising assertion? This certainly doesn't seem to cohere with the data from the sources most generally known.

The problem with this is the same problem that persists through an awful lot of sociology research: a failure to control for other factors.

Freakonomics said:
After controlling for just a few variables—including the income and education level of the child’s parents and the mother’s age at the birth of her first child—the gap between black and white children is virtually eliminated at the time the children enter school.
 
The problem with this is the same problem that persists through an awful lot of sociology research: a failure to control for other factors.

That seems like the problem to me.

CRT is on the squishiest edge of the very soft science, sociology. It's nearly impossible to avoid reading your biases into what is considered "data".

It's more like a Rorschach test than biology.
Tom
 
The problem with this is the same problem that persists through an awful lot of sociology research: a failure to control for other factors.

Freakonomics said:
After controlling for just a few variables—including the income and education level of the child’s parents and the mother’s age at the birth of her first child—the gap between black and white children is virtually eliminated at the time the children enter school.

"Accounting for other factors" is a pretty good summary of intersectionality theory, which is a bulwark of CRT thinking, so you're going to need to be more specific (and empirical) if you're going to make a meaningful case here.
 
The problem with this is the same problem that persists through an awful lot of sociology research: a failure to control for other factors.

That seems like the problem to me.

CRT is on the squishiest edge of the very soft science, sociology. It's nearly impossible to avoid reading your biases into what is considered "data".

It's more like a Rorschach test than biology.
Tom

CRT emerged from legal studies, not sociology.

I think it's pretty amusing that you are complaining about squishy language in a post that contains no content except for a vague emotional response. What data should be considered, and isn't?
 
The demand for "falsification" is a little bit strange, as CRT is more an approach or a paradigm than a single hypothesis or claim. This is a bit like demanding that the theory of evolution or the ecological approach to field biology be "falsified".
You know there's a difference between "falsifiable" and "falsified", don't you? No one but a creationist idiot demands that the theory of evolution be falsified. Everyone who takes science seriously requires the theory of evolution to be falsifiable.

...in this post, I'm going to restrict myself solely to the question of how one might go about "falsifying CRT" in a manner that would be convincing to a social scientist.
Convincing to which social scientist? An awful lot practice Cargo Cult science.

Throughout, I will make reference to the short list of core ideas that I presented in post #61 of this thread, asking in each case: what might it mean to "falsify" the implied claims or set of claims attached to each major point.

--------

1. Race is a biological fiction, but a social reality.

One would need in this case to establish either that race was a genuine biological phenomenon, or <snip>
That's an odd explanation on several levels. First, because "race is a genuine biological phenomenon" isn't the sort of claim science is really in the business of "establishing". You might as well challenge skeptics of the "planets would slow down and stop unless pushed by angels" theory to "establish" that momentum is conserved. What science does is try to either falsify some proposed alternative to the momentum conservation theory, or else explain why the proposed alternative is a poor unparsimonious explanation, or not-even-wrong unfalsifiable drivel. "Races are biological realities" is a falsifiable theory that makes predictions; but observing that these predictions come true doesn't "establish" that race is a genuine biological phenomenon. It's the other way around. It's observing them fail to come to pass that's what it would take to falsify the theory -- to show race is a biological fiction. So if "Race is a biological fiction" is a falsifiable theory, what prediction does it make that we can check to see if it comes true?

A second reason it's odd is because as the words are commonly used in plain English, race is a biological reality and this fact is familiar to practically everyone. You get your race from your parents, and in case that's sociologically ambiguous, you get it from your biological parents, not from your sociological parents. Challenging people to establish it is on a level with challenging people to establish that babies come only from copulation -- it's just part of the background knowledge we all have about human biology. It's what makes the bit of this sitcom from 14:35 to 15:50 so priceless. (Context: Nine months ago Mr. Campbell was abducted by extraterrestrials and temporarily replaced by an alien impostor; Mrs. Campbell doesn't know whether she had sex with her real husband or with the alien.)

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_T4DGMZHas&ab_channel=KennaMcmickle[/youtube]

CRT supporters know all this. And yet they persist in saying "Race is a biological fiction". On its face, it sounds like they're denying the biological reality of race for exactly the same reason Christians deny that babies come only from copulation -- it's yet another weird bit of reality avoidance that some weird indoctrinated people believe because it's a doctrine their weird religion tells them they're supposed to believe. Normal people tend to be flabbergasted when they find out the biological reality of races is even controversial.

But that's not quite what's going on here, is it? You lot aren't actually disputing the obvious ordinary falsifiable predictions of the "race is a genuine biological phenomenon" hypothesis, such as that a white woman giving birth to an African-American-looking baby implies the biological father will probably turn out to be a black man, are you? Rather, what's going on here is that you guys actually mean something different by "Race is a biological fiction, not a genuine biological phenomenon" from what laymen who are just going by the plain English usage of the words think it means. You presumably have some technical usage in mind for "race" and/or for "biological". That technical usage might be biology jargon; but then again it might be sociology jargon, or maybe just Marxism jargon. So in plain English, in terms of observables, what is it you mean when you claim "Race is a biological fiction"? In plain English, in terms of observables, what is it you mean by "race was a genuine biological phenomenon" that you think unbelievers would need to establish? And in plain English, why do you choose to phrase your contention in a way that's so well-suited to making ordinary people misunderstand you?

A third reason it's odd is that it's not at all clear what on earth any of this has to do with the rest of your short list of CRT core ideas. I'm pretty sure if someone falsifies that particular claim of CRT in a manner that's convincing to a CRT-believing social scientist, the information will just fall away from her like water off a duck's back. She'll simply tweak her mental concept of CRT just enough to let it ignore the existence of biological races -- and that won't be much tweaking at all. So what the bejesus is it that you think follows from the alleged fictionalness of biological races, and what the bejesus is it that you think would follow from the hypothetical genuineness of race as a biological phenomenon, that are of any sociological significance? Why is whether races are biologically real important to CRT believers -- so important that in the short list of core ideas, it's idea number one?
 
And yet, you present no scientific evidence to support your views, only paper-thin "common-sense" arguments and clips from old sitcoms. You say that the arguments of educated people are irrelevant because they differ from the ways non-specialists use words, but that is facile- in that the same could be true of literally any academic subject - and deceptive, as it implies that common usages of words like "race" are homogenous and consistent when on the lips of the uneducated, with technical uses the only outlier, when you must know that this is far from the truth, and in fact people take "race" and "races" to mean a lot of different things based on their experiences and the cultures they were raised into.

Why are you dragging this into a discussion of rhetoric rather than presenting your evidence, if you have any?

If race is not a matter of "technical" biology, but rather a matter of "how 'normal people' understand biology", then it is entirely correct to describe it as a social construct first and foremost.
 
And yet, you present no scientific evidence
What, and you did? :rolleyes:

to support your views,
Been there; done that; it has about as much effect on left-wing race denialists as explaining the greenhouse effect has on right-wing global warming denialists. And this isn't the place for it. If you are sincerely challenging me to a scientific discussion about biological races, go repeat your unsupported biology claims in the Natural Science forum. And no, that's not a way for you to get out of having to explain what you mean by the words you're misusing.

I am not presenting evidence for biological races yet because we are not debating whether they exist yet; we're still debating whether CRT's claim that they don't is falsifiable.

only paper-thin "common-sense" arguments and clips from old sitcoms.
I present those because you made the positive claim that CRT is falsifiable, so burden-of-proof for that claim is on you, and the first issue we have to get past in order to evaluate your claim is to figure out what it means. Because, as my paper-thin "common-sense" arguments and clips from old sitcoms conclusively demonstrate, you cannot mean what ordinary people would mean. The first requirement of any scientific claim is clarity.

You say that the arguments of educated people are irrelevant because they differ from the ways non-specialists use words,
Quote me. You say I say things I don't say because you are trying to make this about me so it will no longer be about your failure to meet your burden-of-proof.

but that is facile- in that the same could be true of literally any academic subject - and deceptive, as it implies that common usages of words like "race" are homogenous and consistent when on the lips of the uneducated,
It implies nothing of the sort. You just made that up.

Why are you dragging this into a discussion of rhetoric rather than presenting your evidence, if you have any?
Because "Race is a biological fiction" is rhetoric; it isn't science. You're the one who claims it's falsifiable; why won't you describe the potential observations that would falsify it?

If I yet again present evidence showing that the existence of biological races is overwhelmingly probable, you'll deny that I've done so; and you won't even need to move the goalposts to deny it, because you're refusing to say where the goalposts are to begin with.

If race is not a matter of "technical" biology,
So who said race isn't a matter of technical biology? It's a matter of technical biology; and normal people understand a great deal of technical biology even if they use nontechnical language. It's how they know virgins don't give birth. But if some sociologist decided that technically the meaning of "virgin" includes that classic movie character who said she was a virgin in America but not in Europe, and he insisted on that basis that virgin birth technically occurs, that wouldn't mean he was right and normal people were just uneducated; it would mean the sociologist was committing language abuse.

but rather a matter of "how 'normal people' understand biology", then it is entirely correct to describe it as a social construct first and foremost.
That in no way follows. You might as well propose that since normal people think of "sunrise" as the sun coming up, and scientifically educated people know the sun doesn't come up but the earth rotates into a position that takes people out of the earth's shadow into sunlight, it is entirely correct to describe what time sunrise occurs at a given location as a social construct first and foremost.

CRT appears to be in the business of claiming "race is a biological fiction" based on some obscure technical interpretation of the word "race", peddling it to the public as rhetoric, and relying on the public to draw conclusions about their own common-sense notions of "race" from that rhetoric without ever being aware that the CRT peddlers meant something different by it. That's not science. That's just an equivocation fallacy. If that's what you're referring to by "the arguments of educated people", their education doesn't lend their opinions any extra weight; it just means they're sufficiently well-educated to have no excuse for peddling fallacious propaganda.
 
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