What, exactly, is CRT?

[Worldtraveller]

You basically want society changed to erase the effects of past discrimination.

That sounds like a fabulous idea.

The problem is there is no magic wand to do so, if you want equal outcomes you must have very unequal opportunity--and you'll end up making the problem worse because there's no reason to fix the real problems.

Aaah. So you acknowledge that you received an advantage that you neither earned nor worked for, that was provided on the backs of the labor of others whose fruit was stolen.

BUT,
You are okay with continued disparity, because you are not willing to give up any of your unearned advantage to level that field.

It seems like that’s what you just revealed.

Winnar!

 

[scombrid]

That sounds like a fabulous idea.




Aaah. So you acknowledge that you received an advantage that you neither earned nor worked for, that was provided on the backs of the labor of others whose fruit was stolen.

BUT,
You are okay with continued disparity, because you are not willing to give up any of your unearned advantage to level that field.

It seems like that’s what you just revealed.

Winnar!

Right? And he still doesn't quite get how he stepped in it logically. But that is because what he sees as "the real problems" are quite different from what are the real problems. There still exists quite unequal opportunity.

 

[Swammerdami]

Is this a good example of systemic racism? — The Second Amendment does not apply to Black people.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That sounds like a fabulous idea.




Aaah. So you acknowledge that you received an advantage that you neither earned nor worked for, that was provided on the backs of the labor of others whose fruit was stolen.

BUT,
You are okay with continued disparity, because you are not willing to give up any of your unearned advantage to level that field.

It seems like that’s what you just revealed.

Winnar!

Right? And he still doesn't quite get how he stepped in it logically. But that is because what he sees as "the real problems" are quite different from what are the real problems. There still exists quite unequal opportunity.

Of course there's unequal opportunity. The problem is that it's not racism causing that unequal opportunity and it can't be fixed by decreeing an equal outcome. The real problems are cultural and not easy to fix--whether or not they have their origin in racism is irrelevant to fixing the current situation.

 

[Trausti]

Is this a good example of systemic racism? — The Second Amendment does not apply to Black people.

Black people own guns. Go to the gun range and you’ll see people of every hue. That Slate link is just stupid.

 

[Trausti]

Right? And he still doesn't quite get how he stepped in it logically. But that is because what he sees as "the real problems" are quite different from what are the real problems. There still exists quite unequal opportunity.

Of course there's unequal opportunity. The problem is that it's not racism causing that unequal opportunity and it can't be fixed by decreeing an equal outcome. The real problems are cultural and not easy to fix--whether or not they have their origin in racism is irrelevant to fixing the current situation.

Is it really lack of opportunity or that people are not equal? The Olympics are going on now. The inequality of human ability on full display.

 

[Worldtraveller]

Right? And he still doesn't quite get how he stepped in it logically. But that is because what he sees as "the real problems" are quite different from what are the real problems. There still exists quite unequal opportunity.

Of course there's unequal opportunity. The problem is that it's not racism causing that unequal opportunity and it can't be fixed by decreeing an equal outcome. The real problems are cultural and not easy to fix--whether or not they have their origin in racism is irrelevant to fixing the current situation.

Assertions without evidence. It's almost like reading religious propaganda.

 

[Politesse]

Is this a good example of systemic racism? — The Second Amendment does not apply to Black people.

Black people own guns. Go to the gun range and you’ll see people of every hue. That Slate link is just stupid.

The Slate link does not make the claim that Black people do not own guns. You really need to learn to read things before posting about them.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Right? And he still doesn't quite get how he stepped in it logically. But that is because what he sees as "the real problems" are quite different from what are the real problems. There still exists quite unequal opportunity.

Of course there's unequal opportunity. The problem is that it's not racism causing that unequal opportunity and it can't be fixed by decreeing an equal outcome. The real problems are cultural and not easy to fix--whether or not they have their origin in racism is irrelevant to fixing the current situation.

Assertions without evidence. It's almost like reading religious propaganda.

If it was racism why are Asians ahead of whites these days? They were just about as repressed as blacks were.

And why do immigrant blacks do far better than native born ones?

 

[Worldtraveller]

Assertions without evidence. It's almost like reading religious propaganda.

If it was racism why are Asians ahead of whites these days? They were just about as repressed as blacks were.

And why do immigrant blacks do far better than native born ones?

Instead of just asking dumb questions, why don't you think about the why for a moment yourself. Don't hurt yourself....

 

[Trausti]

Assertions without evidence. It's almost like reading religious propaganda.

If it was racism why are Asians ahead of whites these days? They were just about as repressed as blacks were.

And why do immigrant blacks do far better than native born ones?

Instead of just asking dumb questions, why don't you think about the why for a moment yourself. Don't hurt yourself....

East Asians' ancestors famously engendered a culture of learning and civil service examinations - which correlated with reproductive success? And these traits were selected for and passed on? African immigrants are self-selected and mostly come from tribes known for trading and commercial success, e.g., the Igbo? And these traits were selected for and passed on?

 

[KeepTalking]

Instead of just asking dumb questions, why don't you think about the why for a moment yourself. Don't hurt yourself....

East Asians' ancestors famously engendered a culture of learning and civil service examinations - which correlated with reproductive success? And these traits were selected for and passed on? African immigrants are self-selected and mostly come from tribes known for trading and commercial success, e.g., the Igbo? And these traits were selected for and passed on?

I thought he just advised you not to hurt yourself.

Normally it wouldn't bother me, but you are not only hurting yourself, you are hurting logic.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Assertions without evidence. It's almost like reading religious propaganda.

If it was racism why are Asians ahead of whites these days? They were just about as repressed as blacks were.

And why do immigrant blacks do far better than native born ones?

Instead of just asking dumb questions, why don't you think about the why for a moment yourself. Don't hurt yourself....

The point is if discrimination were the cause neither of the examples I gave would be true.

Discrimination certainly played a role in how the situation came to be, but it's not causing the current situation.

 

[Trausti]

Instead of just asking dumb questions, why don't you think about the why for a moment yourself. Don't hurt yourself....

East Asians' ancestors famously engendered a culture of learning and civil service examinations - which correlated with reproductive success? And these traits were selected for and passed on? African immigrants are self-selected and mostly come from tribes known for trading and commercial success, e.g., the Igbo? And these traits were selected for and passed on?

I thought he just advised you not to hurt yourself.

Normally it wouldn't bother me, but you are not only hurting yourself, you are hurting logic.

I forgot. The current left have become creationists.

 

[Trausti]

Instead of just asking dumb questions, why don't you think about the why for a moment yourself. Don't hurt yourself....

The point is if discrimination were the cause neither of the examples I gave would be true.

Discrimination certainly played a role in how the situation came to be, but it's not causing the current situation.

The CRT view is that any disparity between groups (except for sports, for some reason) is caused by racism. There can be no other explanation.

 

[Jarhyn]

Instead of just asking dumb questions, why don't you think about the why for a moment yourself. Don't hurt yourself....

The point is if discrimination were the cause neither of the examples I gave would be true.

Discrimination certainly played a role in how the situation came to be, but it's not causing the current situation.

Somewhere this has clearly stepped away from CRT. CRT does not address discrimination. I don't see why or how this is actually relevant.

Immigrants would be expected to fare better in many cases because they lack the social pressures that exist from being in a community of poverty.

I have before and I guess must again point out that racism in a society, especially generational systemic racism, gets internalized, as well.

Discrimination caused. Not is causing, already caused. What is mediating the continued causation of the original event, is systemic racism.

It is both an event, and a wave.

 

[Trausti]

In his autobiography, Nelson Mandela notices an interesting difference between blacks and whites:

 

[Politesse]

Um, actually he is describing his culture. Very pointedly he is not talking about "Blacks", but rather comparing pedagogy in Xhosa and White South African households: a cultural question.

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

Isn't it OK to teach SUPERIORITY to the kids in school?

The idea that No one is superior to anyone else should either NOT be taught at all, or it should be countered with other teachings which confirm the superiority of some over others, based on superior performance, or superior talent or ability.

CRT seems to be based on the ideological premise that there is no superiority of anyone over anyone else, which is false. It might be reasonable to teach that there is no GROUP superiority, while there is INDIVIDUAL superiority, or at least no superiority like a race superiority or ethnic superiority or social class superiority. CRT could have some merit if it tries to deal with these questions, but it seems to be more ideological, dictating or preaching certain talking points (and slogans) rather than engaging in critical thought. No one so far has presented any critical thought from the CRTers.

Though CRT seems to include some "fuzzy math" or gibberish which is difficult to decipher, it seems to express a sentiment which everyone should agree with: Teach the truth, the facts, about race history, even the unpleasant facts which Whites have been embarrassed about and maybe even have suppressed. Maybe the greatest element in CRT is the "C" = critical part of it, meaning to search out the facts, or the truth, and don't automatically accept the popular dogmas or prejudices.

Which makes the quote of Nelson Mandela puzzling -- What was he thinking?

In his autobiography, Nelson Mandela notices an interesting difference between blacks and whites:

Like all Xhosa children, I acquired knowledge mainly through observation. We were meant to learn through imitation and emulation, not through questions. When I first visited the homes of whites, I was often dumbfounded by the number and nature of questions that children asked of their parents -- and their parents' unfailing willingness to answer them. In my household, questions were considered a nuisance; adults imparted information as they considered necessary.

Um, actually he is describing his culture. Very pointedly he is not talking about "Blacks", but rather comparing pedagogy in Xhosa and White South African households: a cultural question.

Is anyone else shocked by this Mandela quote, or is it only me? This is a put-down of one's own culture/race which we should not expect from an African revolutionary leader.

We were meant to learn through imitation and emulation, not through questions.

What? "meant" by whom? the gods? nature? the demon spirits in the jungle?

It's OK to say it's "his culture" that he's putting down, rather than his race. And yet, he mentions it was the "homes of whites" where he noticed this difference in acquiring knowledge. If he meant that this anti-questioning mindset was only proper to the Xhosa culture and not other Black cultures also, why didn't he say "the homes of non-Xhosa" people? Surely he had also visited the homes of other Blacks than just the Xhosa tribe, as well as homes of Whites. It's not unreasonable to suppose he was really speaking of a difference between Whites and Blacks, and not just between White people and Xhosa people.


What should be taught in schools and what should not be?

Shouldn't children be taught about the slave trade, the atrocities, etc.? and about the massacre of Blacks in Tulsa in 1921 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre and similar massacres of Blacks by Whites in the U.S., which have been omitted from school history classes? Shouldn't the truth be taught, no matter who might be offended?


"America is fundamentally a racist country."

Should this also be taught? Is this verifiable scientific fact? If a teacher says this to the elementary school kids, do the taxpayers who hired him/her have a right to object and "censor" this kind of ideologizing by a teacher?

Is it a fact that the U.S. is fundamentally "racist"? What does that mean?


Teach facts only, and also basic principles of truth-seeking.

Also truth about science and the scientific method and critical inquiry and logic, also the cold facts of economics (supply-and-demand, competition, etc.), and other truths many humans find inconvenient. How about the "inconvenient truth" about climate change, e.g.

Isn't this "truth" which our society generally accepts, and the science and education establishments?

And so wouldn't it be appropriate to teach children in schools that it's good to ask questions and not always just believe anything the teacher says? even to "question authority" and not just memorize by rote every word a parent or teacher dictates to you? This questioning trait should be recognized as a superior trait of any culture (or race or classification of humans), because questioning and doubting and seeking answers makes any group become better -- and yes, Superior to the others which incline to suppressing the questioning and doubting instinct.

There is such a thing as being superior to others, including other groups which exhibit the inferior traits rather than the superior ones. Wouldn't that also be appropriate to teach the kids in schools. Instead of preaching to them some false equality of everyone? Instead of teaching them that everyone is equal, why not teach them to become superior by doing superior acts, like questioning things, and seeking truth rather than always believing everything you're told by those in authority?

I'm almost tempted to think the above Mandela quote might really be an interpolation, somehow injected into his book later by a White Supremacist putting words into his mouth which he never really said. I'm serious. I have trouble believing Mandela really said this.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The idea that No one is superior to anyone else should either NOT be taught at all, or it should be countered with other teachings which confirm the superiority of some over others, based on superior performance, or superior talent or ability.

I think it is crucial that we still teach what is and isn't a strawman argument in school, and the ability of people to understand what an argument and context actually is..

CRT seems to be based on the ideological premise that there is no superiority of anyone over anyone else, which is false.

CRT isn't about racism, as much as systemic racism and the perpetuity it has in long term self-perpetuating circumstances.

It might be reasonable to teach that there is no GROUP superiority, while there is INDIVIDUAL superiority, or at least no superiority like a race superiority or ethnic superiority or social class superiority.

When speaking on racism, it is about there is no default superiority based simply on identity of race. It has nothing to do with negating that some people are really good at stuff compared to others.