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What is self?

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
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Considering the ancient mystics did not have science, what is self?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ātman_(Hinduism)

Ātman (/ˈɑːtmən/) is a Sanskrit word that means inner self or soul.[1][2][3] In Hindu philosophy, especially in the Vedanta school of Hinduism, Ātman is the first principle,[4] the true self of an individual beyond identification with phenomena, the essence of an individual. In order to attain liberation (moksha), a human being must acquire self-knowledge (atma jnana), which is to realize that one's true self (Ātman) is identical with the transcendent self
 
[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwDNXgrNECw[/YOUTUBE]
 
Thought I'd shake the tree and see what falls out.
 

Hey, you can be really good at this stuff!

I whole new career suddenly opens up in front of you.

A New Messiah is born. Right here, at 8:11 am.

Hallelujah. :D
EB
 
OK, I'll answer seriously.

The self obviously includes, when there is one, the little bit of past autobiographical data we happen to remember on the moment, if any, souvenirs of the subject about the subject, or whatever seems such to the subject, including, possibly, total crap.

There's something else, though. You have to include in the self all the sensations, if any, that the subject has and takes to be about the subject, such as usually pain, orgasm or being too hot under the collar for example. Sometimes, these too can be total crap but that doesn't matter to our definition here. If the subject feels crap, so be it.

I'm not finished. You might want to include one thought of the subject. The current thought (also past thoughts if remembered but that's already included in the past autobiographical data bit). A thought is the bit of thinking process the subject is conscious of. Very often it's crap, too.

Still, me, I don't necessarily include the current thought in the self, but it's tricky. If the thought is of the autobiographical data, then yes. If it's about something else entirely, then no. Obviously, when the subject remembers something, it's a thought, but not necessarily part of the self. If he remembers something about the subject, then it's part of the self. And the self doesn't exist if it's not a thought. So, it appears and disappears according to what thought the subject has on the moment. If the person works hard for several hours on an urgent business deal, he may well forget about himself entirely, and therefore his self, during that time, just doesn't exist. There's no actual self in this case, at least not one within the consciousness of the person. There's a subject, but no self.

There are a few other things beside autobiographical data and sensations, for example impressions, but only impressions that, again, the subject would take to be about the subject (see my thread on impressions for more of the same).

That's my concept of the self. I think it's operational, i.e. each of us can put it to the test for himself, a bit like the Cogito.

Except p-zombies, perhaps, but they would still behave "as if".
EB
 
Maybe Yoda and OB1 will weigh in...may the farce be with you.
 
Maybe Yoda and OB1 will weigh in...may the farce be with you.

I don't see the Tet as farcical at all. In fact I think it's at the very least creatively ingenious, even if it doesn't refer to an actual God.

Steve, have you read Spinoza? Especially his Hebrew Grammar?

Just wondering.
 
No Spinoza, Interpreting Hebrew for meanings does not interest me.

What is self is a perennial question going far back.

There is no metaphysical answer, the best you can do is adopt a philosophy or religion that satisfies you. I take a physical science view. We are essentially a biocomputer. Any attempt to answer the question is self referential, I look at it like a dog chasing its tail. To define something requires a reference point, and it is always subjective.
 
No Spinoza, Interpreting Hebrew for meanings does not interest me.

What is self is a perennial question going far back.

There is no metaphysical answer, the best you can do is adopt a philosophy or religion that satisfies you. I take a physical science view. We are essentially a biocomputer. Any attempt to answer the question is self referential, I look at it like a dog chasing its tail. To define something requires a reference point, and it is always subjective.

OK about Spinoza and Hebrew.

But, as you know, the human being is not only a subject, but an object whose behavior can be observed and studied. The scientists are chasing their tails at least as much as the philosophers at this stage of the game, which I reckon you already said? Unless I have misunderstood.

Perhaps, when they have fully mapped a human brain, which will require God only knows how many magnitudes of server space, then perhaps we can all, as a species, stop chasing our silly collective tail.

?

ETA: oh, I forgot to clarify something: Spinoza knew Hebrew inside and out, because he was a great scholar, but he is on record, particularly in his letters, where he was far more candid than in his published, professional works, as stating that the kabbalah was crazy and that the Jews who went crazy over looking for hidden meanings in the kabbalah, particularly with numbers (gematria) were "lunatics".

You have to remember, despite Spinoza's use of the term God in place of Nature, or as a co-eternal, constantly creative Intellect (In the deistic and Shelleyan sense), he was a man of reason. His Ethica was written after the style of Euclid. He wanted scientific, exacting and precise meaning, from start to finish. He is very worth studying, even if you are a materialist, or an empirical scientist. MANY scientists, including Einstein, found his works enlightening.

One should never just wave away a great mind, any great mind, even if they posit ideas you detest. I have never neglected any great thinker I know of, not even the maligned Ayn Rand, though I found most of her conclusions to be silly, and just plain confoundedly dense. Sure, I have poo-poohed Hume & Berkeley, but only after reading them.
 
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Yes we observe our own behavior, but without a reference point describing 'what sell is' is self referential, or bootstrapping an argument.

We come to a sense of self from experience. Trying to define it is pointless, but a good exercise.
 
Yes we observe our own behavior, but without a reference point describing 'what sell is' is self referential, or bootstrapping an argument.

We come to a sense of self from experience. Trying to define it is pointless, but a good exercise.

I hear ya.

I think it might prove fruitful, if only to bring the thread back on topic, to consider two major writings on the subject of Time and the concept of self, Heraclitus and Aristotle.

Heraclitus can be found all over. Here is a convenient list of a clear English translation of his famous "Fragments":

http://www.heraclitusfragments.com/files/en.html

On to Aristotle. In his writings on Time, there is an excellent short extract called "Time and the Self" Unfortunately, I am finding it hard to find a link that is not either a PDF or a link to a questionable or non-descript source cite. I have gleaned this short extract from his larger work, "On the Senses" from an excellent book by Charles Sherover, which I own in hard copy, which is a large anthology on philosophical and scientific reflections on the nature of time, often with reference to perceptions and conceptions of self, and "soul":

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Human_Experience_of_Time.html?id=vv5U3gmdBaMC
 
I'll try again:

Once upon a time, there was a soldier whose job was to control a semi autonomous drone over a battlefield. Part of his job was to spot and kill soldiers doing the same job, but for the other side. One day, he was laying in the middle of a confused and complex battlefield, carefully studying the image from the infrared camera in his drone. Suddenly, he spotted the telltale signature of a drone operator (1) and fired a missile at the newly identified and unsuspecting target. Shortly after firing, he realised he was being targeted by a missile. As he desperately tried to scramble out of the way, he noticed that his target was also trying to escape. Suddenly it dawned on him: (2) he had fired a missile at himself.

The difference between (1) and (2) is the difference between seeing yourself and seeing yourself as yourself. Personally I think that this is half of the story of consciousness and, for tediously extensive reasons, this can trick only be managed by creatures that use language or something so like language that you might as well call it language. A zombie, of the philosophical sort, may well be able to recognise and act on the realisation that the entity that has paint on it and the entity that is behaving like it has paint on it are the same entity, but that's not the same thing. Or to put it another way, I hold that a something about which nothing can be said and a nothing about which nothing can be said are not the same thing.

This recognition is a form of binding that makes an explicit connection between the inner mental states and the outer physical states. Merely having mental states, being, as Nagel put it, something that it is like something to be, is not enough. The problem is that, in making this binding, there's an almost irresistible metaphor literally standing there waiting to be used. while the mind is a pretty uncertain thing, the body is conveniently real with clear boundaries, interests (like not eating or hurting itself, for starters, and rather obviously skin. It has an outside and an inside. As Strawson the elder pointed out in his seminal work 'Persons', without a lot of heavy and unavailable (at the time) science there is no particular reason to to think the mental life is in the head - or indeed singular. A theme Dennett returns to in 'Where am I'.

However, there is a very very fundamental problem: there is no way that a person can make sense of the real time behaviour of another person from the biology. This isn't a problem for cavemen. this is as true today as it was half a million years ago. Even if we had a perfect model of a brain and knew everything about it, that model would be too unwieldy to deploy in real time. We have to bodge up a way of making sense of people that works in real time. It doesn't have to be biologically accurate, or even biologically plausible, it just has to give us a scrabbling handhold on what the hell someone is going to do next. If it can also explain what they just did, that's a bonus.

We have. It's called variously 'folk psychology' Propositional Attitude talk, Intentional systems theory, The Intentional Stance, and so on.

We assume rationality.

We ask what beliefs a person should have - either due to biological agenda or common knowledge or even asking nicely. Let's be clear - a belief isn't a biological kind, it's clearly a linguistic one - the vehicle is a declarative sentence and the content is a proposition. This is conceptual content only.

We find out what desires a person should have in much the same way.

Then we do the magic trick - we simply assume that a person will act rationally upon their beliefs to bring about their desires. If the prediction proves correct we assume they had those beliefs. If not, we tell another story. Beliefs and desires are an instrumentalist (or less) strategy and not remotely realist.

Not only are beliefs, desires and rationality assumed - there's also an assumption that there is a single agent, a selfish self, that has hopes, desires and fears. That has purposes, agendas and perspectives. That has beliefs, knowledge and attitudes. That has a story; a narrative made up of history, beliefs and future.

Remember, at this point this is nothing more than the putative illata of a folk theory of prediction and explanation of behaviour. It's clear that we use this, or some functionally equivalent variation, all the time to predict and explain others - the assumption that every body, that is everybody, has all this is as ubiquitous as it is biologically infeasible, in fact biologically defeasible.

However, with the metaphor of the body suggesting a unitary thing with clear boundaries of skin and skull and folk psychology assuming a unitary thing of beliefs and desires, is it any surprise that we internalise both metaphors. and assume we have a self, a Cartesian captain sitting in the wheelhouse?

While this is lousy for understanding how we work, it's bloody handy for applying folk psychology to ourselves. This allows us to explain behaviour that otherwise, for lack of understanding of the biology, we'd have to shrug and call instinct or intuition or some other largely meaningless word. We do it all the time and in fact, when as a result of agnosias, aphasias and other mental damage, the illusion is broken we carry on explaining away - in ever more baroque confabulation - as the disjunction between explanation and reality widens. As Dennett put it: should we see this as an ability suddenly learned in response to trauma or as a way of life unmasked?

Seeing ourselves on the same model as we see others pays off big time - we can use the predictive strategy as a motivating strategy - work out what would be rational to do and do it - we can use it as a learning strategy allowing us to tell ever more baroque stories and suddenly here we are: homo narrans, the story telling ape. That's one half of the story, then there's the other half

I don't believe there is a hard problem. Or rather I do: the really hard problem is how phrases like, 'I'm sorry, it's terminal', can have the effect they have on our brains. Answers on a postcard please.

However, the answer to the question 'why does it feel like something to be something that it feels like something to be, is simple: that's what it feels like to have the sort of biology we have sharing information in the sort of brain we have in the way that we do. We don't get excited about why water is wet, rust is reddy brown or any number of emergent features of stuff. It just happens that this particular emergent feature of stuff can only be noticed from the perspective of a functioning user illusion in a brain. There's nothing odd or mystical about this, it just happens that water is wet and sharing information causes the illusion that the lights are on - and the illusion is quite enough to be real. Don't forget, a correctly simulated rainshower will only cause virtual wetness, but correctly simulated thought can do what thought does inside and outside of the simulation.

That's not to say we can simulate consciousness. We can't. A system can have consciousness, but every brain is different, stochastic and chaotic - we all get our own unique show. Even if you could precisely simulate that (and you can't) then all you'd have is two versions of the same problem - you wouldn't get any closer to reading a mind/brain. It's only once our very private inner states are parsed, imperfectly, into language that we can communicate.

Descartes led us astray. The Cogito assumes that the mind and the body are different things to prove that they are different things. Last time I looked, this is a formal fallacy. The fact is that his skeptical argument only 'proves' that the mind cannot be doubted while the body can if you already assume that the mind and the body are different things. That's just one more reason dualism sucks. As a monist (and boy am I one of those) the default assumption has to be that the mind is the body in action. (Or. at the very least, supervenes upon the body). When rather a lot of science shows that there are some pretty compelling correlations between body and mind, it's time to get into that virtuous circle of science informing metaphysics as metaphysics informs science.

So that'll do - there are two aspects to consciousnesses. One public and embedded in the conventions of language and one private and embedded in the biology of the brain. The two are a hopeless mare's nest and that makes systematic study a little challenging.
 
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I can't help wondering who this jumped up twat might be...

In that case, allow me to make my priorities in that post a little more explicit.
 
I can't help wondering who this jumped up twat might be...

In that case, allow me to make my priorities in that post a little more explicit.

It's quite alright, Sub, don't take the trouble on my account. I'm a paranoid person of late. Pay me no attention...

Sorry, I see you already edited your post. I need to stay out of these threads, at least until I come out of rehab.
 
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