What is so bad about Hillary Clinton?

[Harry Bosch]

As much as I love Bernie and agree with his position on just about every issue, I shutter to think what he might do when challenged by an aggressive China or Russia. And he most definitely would be. When does push come to shove in Bernieworld? I need to know this.

Well, people though Obama was a peacenik before he was elected. He probably thought so himself.

He's far more of a "peacenik" than almost any of the republicans. The republicans wanted the US to send troops to Ukraine, Obama didn't. They want him to send troops to Iraq and Syria, Obama didn't. Obama never would have been elected if he didn't want to fight the Jihadists (the US voters demand this). But his stratedgy is more to empower our allies in the ME and motivate them to fight the ground war. He wants to the locals to occupy their own country and fight ISIS.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Sanders can't win and the Dems have settled on Hillary.

Is she phony and insincere? Yes. She's also not likable. I'd much more prefer a Hillary who could just come out and say, "Oh, just shut the fuck up about me for once you bunch of sleazy assholes." She can't though. Republicans can get away with "Go fuck yourself," shooting others in the face, and threatening to throw reporters off balconies live on TV, but that shit's a no-go for Hillary.

Hillary does not come across as sincere because she has to play a role she knows is bullshit. No person is all things to all people. Yet she's been gritting her teeth and playing that idiot role ever since Bill ran for the White House. I remember her having to make cookies and the press then comparing her cookies to Barbara Bush's. For someone of tremendous intellect, strong ideals, and intelligence, it must have made her want to scream. And now, just in this moment, I understand why she still wants to be President after all of this bullshit she's been put through. She wants to win a second term and then start telling people to get fucked. Only then, when she is safe from ever having to run for office again, can she finally be real.

There is no one more qualified to be POTUS than she is. She was in the White House for 8 years, she's an attorney, a Senator, and the goddamn Secretary of State. She has been in this motherfucker for over 25 years now and she's got a hide 6 inches thick. Trump is supposed to be tough??? Put them in the octagon and Hillary wouldn't even bother to rip his comb-over off until she'd ripped his head off first---which would take her about 40 seconds.

Have all her decisions lined up with my ideology? Of course not. Oh well. If I want that to happen then I need to become POTUS, dissolve the bicameral and judicial system, and then make myself King of America. Then shit'll go my way all the time. Just think of how awesome that would be. But back here on Earth, that's not the way it works.

Bernie Sanders isn't electable at this time in American history. Get over it. A vote for Bernie is a vote that brings us one step close to a fucking Republican who will have the opportunity to appoint anywhere from 2-4 Supreme Court Justices. That's all you need to consider about who to vote for in the next Presidential Election. You wanna see your leftist ideology truly shit on from On High? Vote for Bernie and put another two Scalia's on the Court.

Hillary is the only option. Learn to live with it.

And this argument is what is going to make people say FUCK IT and stay home.

Good luck with a Republican president.

To which the reply would be, Clinton would be a republican president, even if she is republican-lite. The truth of the matter is this. Voting against the GOP and voting for a Democratic candidate that you are passionate about are two different things. In 2008, I was passionate about that campaign and I took leave from my job to work for the Obama campaign. I put thousands of miles on my car driving all over south eastern NC, canvasing, registering, speaking at rallies, answering questions, driving people to early voting, and I was a poll watcher on election day.

I did none of that on 2012. I just voted.

in 2016, I am backing Sanders.

I am not alone. People don't like Clinton or the fact that she is trying too hard

In 2016 you're going to vote for Sanders in the primary. What if he loses?

Then America loses. Whether Clinton or any republican running wins the WH, we will be at war somewhere before the end of the term. Education Deform will continue on its privatizing and miseducating way. The poor in this country will continue to be forgotten all the while seeing their ranks grow. Banks will continue to be too big to fail and do so anyway.

Will you vote for Hillary in the general if she wins the primary?

No.

IMO, the reason why politicians ignore the left is that it is difficult getting them to vote in the general.

Except when it isn't, (1992, 1996, 2008, 2012) Oh look, those were winning years with charismatic candidates.

Sure Hillary is to the right of Sanders, but she's far far to the left of the republicans.

Not on every issue and quite frankly NOT BEING A NUT JOB should not be your best selling point.

Call her republican lite if you'd like,

Oh I will.

but at the end of day she is: less likely to lead a full scale US invasion

I don't believe you.

and occupation of Iraq and Syria, more likely to pay attention to Black Lives Matter (reps don't give a damn regarding BLM),

I pay attention to Football games. Doesn't mean I go on the field and play. Remember this?

There's always been a racial dynamic underlying Clinton's claims of electability: the argument that working class white swing voters might not -- for whatever reason -- vote for Obama.
Her campaign has been stating it with striking bluntness in the last couple of days, though. Yesterday it was Geoff Garin, and today Clinton in an interview with USA Today:
"I have a much broader base to build a winning coalition on," she said in an interview with USA TODAY. As evidence, Clinton cited an Associated Press article "that found how Sen. Obama's support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me."
"There's a pattern emerging here," she said.
Now, the press has talked about the race in these terms constantly, so I won't feign shock. But it's a bit strange to hear it so bluntly from the candidate's mouth, and probably not a great way to endear herself to African-American voters.


Read more: http://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-smith/2008/05/clintons-white-americans-008545#ixzz3viVehsLa​

will appoint left leaning supreme court justices, more likely to encourage investment in the US, more likely to favor democratic economic programs, won't be lowering taxes on the wealthy, and etc. and etc.

And there it is.

"We have to save SCOTUS!"

What we have to do is elect congress members and senators that will pass laws that will protect the citizenry from the corporatists, fundamentalists, and militarists and not the other way around.

And before to you ask

I don't believe Clinton, I don't trust Clinton, and I don't like Clinton. And last time I checked, no party had the right to lock up my vote for their candidate just because they weren't republicans.

 

[Derec]

She's a populist. I was against the Iraq invasion. I argued against it extensively on this forum. But I was in the minority. The vast majority of Americans were on board. We as a country were convinced by Bush that we must attack.

She will be the only option in about 4 months.

Well to the died in the wool lefties there will always be Jill Stein.

 

[Derec]

In 2016 you're going to vote for Sanders in the primary. What if he loses?

Most will probably hold their nose. But some will either stay home, write in Sanders or vote for Jill Stein. Unlike in 2000 though, Republican are facing a similar problem if they nominate somebody unloved by the base for the third time in a row.

IMO, the reason why politicians ignore the left is that it is difficult getting them to vote in the general.

2000 being case in point.

Sure Hillary is to the right of Sanders, but she's far far to the left of the republicans.

Far far? Not just far?

Call her republican lite if you'd like, but at the end of day she is: less likely to lead a full scale US invasion and occupation of Iraq and Syria,

Well she is in favor of the no fly zone which not even all Republican candidates support.

more likely to pay attention to Black Lives Matter (reps don't give a damn regarding BLM),

You say that like it's a good thing. Bernie Sanders capitulating to BLM idiots and saying stupid shit like that if Sandra Bland was white she would not have committed suicide was not a good moment for him.

Derec and Jason and anti Hillary because they know that she has the best chance to beat Trump.

I actually do not think she will be that strong of a general election candidate. For one, in the general she won't have DWS playing rear gunner doing things like scheduling debates on Saturday before Christmas.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Most will probably hold their nose. But some will either stay home, write in Sanders or vote for Jill Stein. Unlike in 2000 though, Republican are facing a similar problem if they nominate somebody unloved by the base for the third time in a row.

Unliked by the Base? I think the radical wing of the party is really giving themselves too much credit for their influence in the party. They aren't the base, they are a faction of the party. Democrats will vote for Clinton because of SCOTUS.

IMO, the reason why politicians ignore the left is that it is difficult getting them to vote in the general.

2000 being case in point.

Easy in the General, hard in the mid-terms.

Derec and Jason and anti Hillary because they know that she has the best chance to beat Trump.

I actually do not think she will be that strong of a general election candidate. For one, in the general she won't have DWS playing rear gunner doing things like scheduling debates on Saturday before Christmas.

As opposed to any in the Republican field right now that is in the top 3? Jeb Bush remains the most viable candidate and the Bush / Kasich Ticket the best chance at winning. Trump has no shot in heck of winning. Cruz even less. The RNC is scared to death of those two getting the nomination

 

[funinspace]

Jeb Bush remains the most viable candidate and the Bush / Kasich Ticket the best chance at winning. Trump has no shot in heck of winning. Cruz even less. The RNC is scared to death of those two getting the nomination

Though it would be scary to wait thru the process of a campaign of Carnival Cruz against Clinton, it would be fun to see an evangelical/tea partier slaughtered by Clinton at the ballot box; as one can always have a medical emergency at the last minute. Say 'hasta la vista baby' to the tired old "if only we had selected a true believer" crap, and to loose against the Evil Incarnate to boot. That alone almost might be worth it. I have friends who think very little of Clinton, but have commented on the fun of watching tea partier heads explode at her election.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Jeb Bush remains the most viable candidate and the Bush / Kasich Ticket the best chance at winning. Trump has no shot in heck of winning. Cruz even less. The RNC is scared to death of those two getting the nomination

Though it would be scary to wait thru the process of a campaign of Carnival Cruz against Clinton, it would be fun to see an evangelical/tea partier slaughtered by Clinton at the ballot box; as one can always have a medical emergency at the last minute. Say 'hasta la vista baby' to the tired old "if only we had selected a true believer" crap, and to loose against the Evil Incarnate to boot. That alone almost might be worth it. I have friends who think very little of Clinton, but have commented on the fun of watching tea partier heads explode at her election.

It would most certainly help unify most of the nation, and potentially give both the House and Senate back to the Democrats (the RNC's biggest fear). The Tea Party really has a delusional view of how much their opinion is shared by America. Granted, 30+ years of getting jerked off by the Limbaughs of the AM radio dial, telling them they have the biggest cocks will lead to such delusions.

And then you see the polls showing Clinton just barely eeking out over Trump, but the polls are only polling primary voters, not the general electorate, which would really turn the tide. Trump has pissed off the Hispanic vote and the woman vote. You can't win doing that. You'd need what 80 to 90% of the white male vote to offset that? I'm still wondering if Jeb can pull off a McCain in New Hampshire and revitalize his campaign. It really is the RNC's only hope.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The other issue is the "true believer" candidate. They ran through those people in '12. But how many of them were actually true believers in the first place or even mildly electable in the general election? They couldn't even win their own primary... and they went for any alternative to Romney, including Newt Gingrich!

 

[funinspace]

The other issue is the "true believer" candidate. They ran through those people in '12. But how many of them were actually true believers in the first place or even mildly electable in the general election? They couldn't even win their own primary... and they went for any alternative to Romney, including Newt Gingrich!

People (and I mean from all political stripes) are often pretty good at self-delusion. The "true believer" (TB) candidate is kind of like "the good old days". It doesn't really exist, but for within the wispy dreams, and it is slightly different for each person. But Mitt Romney and John McCain were certainly not one of the TB candidates. It is much easier to identify who is not a TB, especially after the fact. The TB candidates were thwarted by the establishment in DC or what not. A TB really could have won the general election!!!! lol

 

[Tom Sawyer]

And then you see the polls showing Clinton just barely eeking out over Trump, but the polls are only polling primary voters, not the general electorate, which would really turn the tide. Trump has pissed off the Hispanic vote and the woman vote. You can't win doing that. You'd need what 80 to 90% of the white male vote to offset that? I'm still wondering if Jeb can pull off a McCain in New Hampshire and revitalize his campaign. It really is the RNC's only hope.

Ya, 538.com has her up by about 130 electoral votes right now and they've added a cool little tool where you can adjust the turnout amongst various demographics and even if a Trump candidacy brings out the vote amongst those who like him at record levels, it still doesn't get him close.

http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-swing-the-election/

Trump is not somebody who's ever going to be President. The only effect of his candidacy is how badly the GOP would lose in the downticket races if he's nominated.

 

[Jaecp]

Tom, that link doesn't seem to be about any individual candidates, but an extrapolation from the previous Presidential election in 2012 meaning that "Generic Democrat" is beating "Generic Republican" by 130 points and not that Hillary specifically is. More accurately it's "here's how 2012 would have gone with new population numbers" and, damn, the systemic advantages for Democrats is big.

Given the link you posted, why not push for Sander when the fears regarding electability are less of an issue? Especially if someone like trump or another one of the bonkers candidates gets nominated it will really light a fire under the dems while demotivating the more moderate republicans

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Tom, that link doesn't seem to be about any individual candidates, but an extrapolation from the previous Presidential election in 2012 meaning that "Generic Democrat" is beating "Generic Republican" by 130 points and not that Hillary specifically is. More accurately it's "here's how 2012 would have gone with new population numbers" and, damn, the systemic advantages for Democrats is big.

Given the link you posted, why not push for Sander when the fears regarding electability are less of an issue? Especially if someone like trump or another one of the bonkers candidates gets nominated it will really light a fire under the dems while demotivating the more moderate republicans

There's other sites which break down individual candidate matchups, which all give pretty much the same results. The Democratic nominee will become your next President. That's not a statement which contains a viable margin of error.

I'm not pushing for Sanders for the same reason that I'm not pushing for you - neither of you has a chance to win the Democratic nomination.

 

[Derec]

There's other sites which break down individual candidate matchups, which all give pretty much the same results. The Democratic nominee will become your next President. That's not a statement which contains a viable margin of error.
I'm not pushing for Sanders for the same reason that I'm not pushing for you - neither of you has a chance to win the Democratic nomination.

So you are saying Hillary should be getting those drapes out of storage?
I would not be so sure. Not a single vote has been cast yet.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

There's other sites which break down individual candidate matchups, which all give pretty much the same results. The Democratic nominee will become your next President. That's not a statement which contains a viable margin of error.
I'm not pushing for Sanders for the same reason that I'm not pushing for you - neither of you has a chance to win the Democratic nomination.

So you are saying Hillary should be getting those drapes out of storage?
I would not be so sure. Not a single vote has been cast yet.

No, I'm saying that she should be getting new drapes. You don't want her to be taking a black light to the ones which were there when Bill was in the office after she has access to nuclear weapons - that would just be dangerous.

While a single vote has not been cast, predictions can be made as to how those votes will end up being cast. No viable predictions result in anything other than Clinton getting voted in as President.

 

[Terrell]

Sanders can't win and the Dems have settled on Hillary.

Is she phony and insincere? Yes. She's also not likable. I'd much more prefer a Hillary who could just come out and say, "Oh, just shut the fuck up about me for once you bunch of sleazy assholes." She can't though. Republicans can get away with "Go fuck yourself," shooting others in the face, and threatening to throw reporters off balconies live on TV, but that shit's a no-go for Hillary.

Hillary does not come across as sincere because she has to play a role she knows is bullshit. No person is all things to all people. Yet she's been gritting her teeth and playing that idiot role ever since Bill ran for the White House. I remember her having to make cookies and the press then comparing her cookies to Barbara Bush's. For someone of tremendous intellect, strong ideals, and intelligence, it must have made her want to scream. And now, just in this moment, I understand why she still wants to be President after all of this bullshit she's been put through. She wants to win a second term and then start telling people to get fucked. Only then, when she is safe from ever having to run for office again, can she finally be real.

There is no one more qualified to be POTUS than she is. She was in the White House for 8 years, she's an attorney, a Senator, and the goddamn Secretary of State. She has been in this motherfucker for over 25 years now and she's got a hide 6 inches thick. Trump is supposed to be tough??? Put them in the octagon and Hillary wouldn't even bother to rip his comb-over off until she'd ripped his head off first---which would take her about 40 seconds.

Have all her decisions lined up with my ideology? Of course not. Oh well. If I want that to happen then I need to become POTUS, dissolve the bicameral and judicial system, and then make myself King of America. Then shit'll go my way all the time. Just think of how awesome that would be. But back here on Earth, that's not the way it works.

Bernie Sanders isn't electable at this time in American history. Get over it. A vote for Bernie is a vote that brings us one step close to a fucking Republican who will have the opportunity to appoint anywhere from 2-4 Supreme Court Justices. That's all you need to consider about who to vote for in the next Presidential Election. You wanna see your leftist ideology truly shit on from On High? Vote for Bernie and put another two Scalia's on the Court.

Hillary is the only option. Learn to live with it.

And this argument is what is going to make people say FUCK IT and stay home.

Good luck with a Republican president.

To which the reply would be, Clinton would be a republican president, even if she is republican-lite. The truth of the matter is this. Voting against the GOP and voting for a Democratic candidate that you are passionate about are two different things. In 2008, I was passionate about that campaign and I took leave from my job to work for the Obama campaign. I put thousands of miles on my car driving all over south eastern NC, canvasing, registering, speaking at rallies, answering questions, driving people to early voting, and I was a poll watcher on election day.

I did none of that on 2012. I just voted.

in 2016, I am backing Sanders.

I am not alone. People don't like Clinton or the fact that she is trying too hard

What's your realistic alternative, if Hillary wins the primary?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

There's other sites which break down individual candidate matchups, which all give pretty much the same results. The Democratic nominee will become your next President. That's not a statement which contains a viable margin of error.
I'm not pushing for Sanders for the same reason that I'm not pushing for you - neither of you has a chance to win the Democratic nomination.

So you are saying Hillary should be getting those drapes out of storage?
I would not be so sure. Not a single vote has been cast yet.

Who in the Republican field can beat her? Bush would be my only answer, and he is having serious troubles with radicals hijacking the party and his brother's legacy. Rubio would be the second guess, but his money issues are starting to come out. Kasich is just too far away to catch up enough it seems.

Trump and Cruz don't have a chance in heck.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Sanders can't win and the Dems have settled on Hillary.

Is she phony and insincere? Yes. She's also not likable. I'd much more prefer a Hillary who could just come out and say, "Oh, just shut the fuck up about me for once you bunch of sleazy assholes." She can't though. Republicans can get away with "Go fuck yourself," shooting others in the face, and threatening to throw reporters off balconies live on TV, but that shit's a no-go for Hillary.

Hillary does not come across as sincere because she has to play a role she knows is bullshit. No person is all things to all people. Yet she's been gritting her teeth and playing that idiot role ever since Bill ran for the White House. I remember her having to make cookies and the press then comparing her cookies to Barbara Bush's. For someone of tremendous intellect, strong ideals, and intelligence, it must have made her want to scream. And now, just in this moment, I understand why she still wants to be President after all of this bullshit she's been put through. She wants to win a second term and then start telling people to get fucked. Only then, when she is safe from ever having to run for office again, can she finally be real.

There is no one more qualified to be POTUS than she is. She was in the White House for 8 years, she's an attorney, a Senator, and the goddamn Secretary of State. She has been in this motherfucker for over 25 years now and she's got a hide 6 inches thick. Trump is supposed to be tough??? Put them in the octagon and Hillary wouldn't even bother to rip his comb-over off until she'd ripped his head off first---which would take her about 40 seconds.

Have all her decisions lined up with my ideology? Of course not. Oh well. If I want that to happen then I need to become POTUS, dissolve the bicameral and judicial system, and then make myself King of America. Then shit'll go my way all the time. Just think of how awesome that would be. But back here on Earth, that's not the way it works.

Bernie Sanders isn't electable at this time in American history. Get over it. A vote for Bernie is a vote that brings us one step close to a fucking Republican who will have the opportunity to appoint anywhere from 2-4 Supreme Court Justices. That's all you need to consider about who to vote for in the next Presidential Election. You wanna see your leftist ideology truly shit on from On High? Vote for Bernie and put another two Scalia's on the Court.

Hillary is the only option. Learn to live with it.

And this argument is what is going to make people say FUCK IT and stay home.

Good luck with a Republican president.

To which the reply would be, Clinton would be a republican president, even if she is republican-lite. The truth of the matter is this. Voting against the GOP and voting for a Democratic candidate that you are passionate about are two different things. In 2008, I was passionate about that campaign and I took leave from my job to work for the Obama campaign. I put thousands of miles on my car driving all over south eastern NC, canvasing, registering, speaking at rallies, answering questions, driving people to early voting, and I was a poll watcher on election day.

I did none of that on 2012. I just voted.

in 2016, I am backing Sanders.

I am not alone. People don't like Clinton or the fact that she is trying too hard

What's your realistic alternative, if Hillary wins the primary?

I will vote for someone not Clinton. Or I will not vote in the presidential election.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I will vote for someone not Clinton. Or I will not vote in the presidential election.

OK, but if Trump wins by one vote, we're blaming you.

 

[Terrell]

Sanders can't win and the Dems have settled on Hillary.

Is she phony and insincere? Yes. She's also not likable. I'd much more prefer a Hillary who could just come out and say, "Oh, just shut the fuck up about me for once you bunch of sleazy assholes." She can't though. Republicans can get away with "Go fuck yourself," shooting others in the face, and threatening to throw reporters off balconies live on TV, but that shit's a no-go for Hillary.

Hillary does not come across as sincere because she has to play a role she knows is bullshit. No person is all things to all people. Yet she's been gritting her teeth and playing that idiot role ever since Bill ran for the White House. I remember her having to make cookies and the press then comparing her cookies to Barbara Bush's. For someone of tremendous intellect, strong ideals, and intelligence, it must have made her want to scream. And now, just in this moment, I understand why she still wants to be President after all of this bullshit she's been put through. She wants to win a second term and then start telling people to get fucked. Only then, when she is safe from ever having to run for office again, can she finally be real.

There is no one more qualified to be POTUS than she is. She was in the White House for 8 years, she's an attorney, a Senator, and the goddamn Secretary of State. She has been in this motherfucker for over 25 years now and she's got a hide 6 inches thick. Trump is supposed to be tough??? Put them in the octagon and Hillary wouldn't even bother to rip his comb-over off until she'd ripped his head off first---which would take her about 40 seconds.

Have all her decisions lined up with my ideology? Of course not. Oh well. If I want that to happen then I need to become POTUS, dissolve the bicameral and judicial system, and then make myself King of America. Then shit'll go my way all the time. Just think of how awesome that would be. But back here on Earth, that's not the way it works.

Bernie Sanders isn't electable at this time in American history. Get over it. A vote for Bernie is a vote that brings us one step close to a fucking Republican who will have the opportunity to appoint anywhere from 2-4 Supreme Court Justices. That's all you need to consider about who to vote for in the next Presidential Election. You wanna see your leftist ideology truly shit on from On High? Vote for Bernie and put another two Scalia's on the Court.

Hillary is the only option. Learn to live with it.

And this argument is what is going to make people say FUCK IT and stay home.

Good luck with a Republican president.

To which the reply would be, Clinton would be a republican president, even if she is republican-lite. The truth of the matter is this. Voting against the GOP and voting for a Democratic candidate that you are passionate about are two different things. In 2008, I was passionate about that campaign and I took leave from my job to work for the Obama campaign. I put thousands of miles on my car driving all over south eastern NC, canvasing, registering, speaking at rallies, answering questions, driving people to early voting, and I was a poll watcher on election day.

I did none of that on 2012. I just voted.

in 2016, I am backing Sanders.

I am not alone. People don't like Clinton or the fact that she is trying too hard

What's your realistic alternative, if Hillary wins the primary?

I will vote for someone not Clinton. Or I will not vote in the presidential election.

Like I said before, enjoy your Republican president. If you live in a swing state you, and those who won't come out to vote for Hillary (against the Republicans) are simply making it easier for them.

Now if you live in Texas, have at it since it's not realistic for anyone other than the Republican candidate to get that state's electoral votes, at this time. Changing demographics, over the long term, may change that with improved minority turnout. If you live in South Carolina, Idaho, or another solidly Republican state I'd say the same. If you live in a swing state, especially Ohio or Florida, then it matters very much, even if you have to hold your nose.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I will vote for someone not Clinton. Or I will not vote in the presidential election.

Like I said before, enjoy your Republican president. If you live in a swing state you, and those who won't come out to vote for Hillary (against the Republicans) are simply making it easier for them.

Now if you live in Texas, have at it since it's not realistic for anyone other than the Republican candidate to get that state's electoral votes, at this time. Changing demographics, over the long term, may change that with improved minority turnout. If you live in South Carolina, Idaho, or another solidly Republican state I'd say the same. If you live in a swing state, especially Ohio or Florida, then it matters very much, even if you have to hold your nose.

If Trump or Cruz is running, it may not matter because Indiana and Montana become the swing states. In general, I agree with your sentiment, but this discussion has been had before and it doesn't go anywhere.