What ISIS Really Wants

[ksen]

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

A huge ass article about how the West is [deliberately(?)] misunderstanding that ISIS is all about Islam and isn't just "Al-Qaeda's jv team". And instead of trying to deny or wave away the Islamness of ISIS in order to truly defeat them we have to come to grips that they are a millenial religious group actively seeking to bring about the apocalypse.

My best friend is a turkish muslim. We haven't talked about ISIS yet but I'll probably bring it up next time we see each other to get his thoughts.

The reality is that the Islamic State is Islamic. Very Islamic. Yes, it has attracted psychopaths and adventure seekers, drawn largely from the disaffected populations of the Middle East and Europe. But the religion preached by its most ardent followers derives from coherent and even learned interpretations of Islam.

Virtually every major decision and law promulgated by the Islamic State adheres to what it calls, in its press and pronouncements, and on its billboards, license plates, stationery, and coins, “the Prophetic methodology,” which means following the prophecy and example of Muhammad, in punctilious detail. Muslims can reject the Islamic State; nearly all do. But pretending that it isn’t actually a religious, millenarian group, with theology that must be understood to be combatted, has already led the United States to underestimate it and back foolish schemes to counter it. We’ll need to get acquainted with the Islamic State’s intellectual genealogy if we are to react in a way that will not strengthen it, but instead help it self-immolate in its own excessive zeal.

 

[Derec]

Obama for some reason has real problems with identifying Islamic terrorism as Islamic.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Obama for some reason has real problems with identifying Islamic terrorism as Islamic.

The lack of all of the Muslims in the US warring and blowing stuff up may be helping to cause his confusion.

 

[TSwizzle]

Obama, like his predecessor Bush, insists that teh islam is a religion of peace.

 

[dismal]

Obama for some reason has real problems with identifying Islamic terrorism as Islamic.

The lack of all of the Muslims in the US warring and blowing stuff up may be helping to cause his confusion.

Why would the lack of muslims in the US blowing stuff up cause him to think the muslims who are chopping heads and blowing stuff up aren't muslims?

Do you take him for some sort of moron?

 

[repoman]

As his former pastor said, he's a politician.

 

[Axulus]

Obama, like his predecessor Bush, insists that teh islam is a religion of peace.

That presumes there is *one* Islam:

 

[KeepTalking]

The lack of all of the Muslims in the US warring and blowing stuff up may be helping to cause his confusion.

Why would the lack of muslims in the US blowing stuff up cause him to think the muslims who are chopping heads and blowing stuff up aren't muslims?

Because it means that their being Muslim is not the problem, but rather that they are blowing shit up and chopping off heads that is the problem, and it is less of a problem for us because they are doing it there instead of doing it here.

 

[Axulus]

What Obama needs to state is that *Islamism*, and radical Islamism in particular, is not a religion of peace, that it is incompatible with Western values, and that we are at war with it. Those who are Muslims but *not* Islamists can peacefully co-exist in our society and with the West. Obama also needs to stand up for freedom of speech and plainly state that Islam is an idea and, like all ideas, it is open to scrutiny, criticism, and satire.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EqSuNewrQs[/youtube]

 

[RavenSky]

Who here has read the "huge ass article" yet?

 

[arcadia]

I think this is the most important popular press article ever printed about the Middle East. It is incredibly well researched, it demonstrates how little any of our political and military leaders undestand about this phenomenon and it provides a few ways we can think about "defeating" them short of another Iraq War.

The essence of ISIS is in fact, good old Abrahamic Apocalypticism; create the right conditions on earth and your deity will in short order, get rid of everybody who doesn't think like you and also take you to heaven. Heck, even Jesus plays a major role in their theology leading the final charge to the Apocalypse. It's sort of like crossing David Koresh with everybody who read the Left Behind series and having them enact the biblical Book of Revelations.

Their goals come from Revelations and their genocidal tactics and Sharia Law come straight from the Old Testament

The important thing for these guys is not killing us, it is killing their neighbors so that the Caliphate can exist and then be attacked setting loose the Apocalypse.

I STRONGLY URGE EVERYBODY TO READ THIS ARTICLE. IT IS A REAL EYE OPENER.

 

[Warpoet]

What Obama needs to state is that *Islamism*, and radical Islamism in particular, is not a religion of peace, that it is incompatible with Western values, and that we are at war with it. Those who are Muslims but *not* Islamists can peacefully co-exist in our society and with the West. Obama also needs to stand up for freedom of speech and plainly state that Islam is an idea and, like all ideas, it is open to scrutiny, criticism, and satire.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EqSuNewrQs[/youtube]

Let's be careful with the terminology we use. If we're at "war" with the Muslims who want to mix their religion with government, we're also at war with the Jews and Christians who want to do the same (and are doing so, to much greater effect, in the West), but I don't see any demands for the president to say that, nor do I expect it will happen. Everyone has a right to express their views in a free society, even if those views are repugnant, and regardless of their religion.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Why would the lack of muslims in the US blowing stuff up cause him to think the muslims who are chopping heads and blowing stuff up aren't muslims?

Because it means that their being Muslim is not the problem, but rather that they are blowing shit up and chopping off heads that is the problem, and it is less of a problem for us because they are doing it there instead of doing it here.

There seems to be this need to label the violence as a particular religion's violence. As if giving it that label helps in some way. What ISIS is doing is wrong... very wrong. That most Muslims don't do what ISIS does implies that Islam isn't about burning people alive or decapitating people.

What Obama needs to state is that *Islamism*, and radical Islamism in particular, is not a religion of peace, that it is incompatible with Western values, and that we are at war with it.

Or maybe, just maybe, the idea of what ISIS does is not "peaceful" stands on its own merits and Obama doesn't need to point out what ISIS does is not peaceful, decent, or good.

Those who are Muslims but *not* Islamists can peacefully co-exist in our society and with the West.

I think that has already been alluded to.

Obama also needs to stand up for freedom of speech and plainly state that Islam is an idea and, like all ideas, it is open to scrutiny, criticism, and satire.

Wouldn't be a bad idea to say Islam is a religion. And just as all people have a right to worship as they choose, all people have the right to express themselves peacefully as they choose. That isn't merely an American right, but a basic human right for all on this planet. And for fuck sakes, murder is worse than a drawing!

 

[dismal]

Why would the lack of muslims in the US blowing stuff up cause him to think the muslims who are chopping heads and blowing stuff up aren't muslims?

Because it means that their being Muslim is not the problem, but rather that they are blowing shit up and chopping off heads that is the problem, and it is less of a problem for us because they are doing it there instead of doing it here.

It seems to me that a big part of the problem is that they don't think the blowing stuff up and chopping heads off is a problem. They think their god wants them to do it.

 

[dismal]

There seems to be this need to label the violence as a particular religion's violence.

The guys doing the head chopping label themselves.

 

[Axulus]

What Obama needs to state is that *Islamism*, and radical Islamism in particular, is not a religion of peace, that it is incompatible with Western values, and that we are at war with it. Those who are Muslims but *not* Islamists can peacefully co-exist in our society and with the West. Obama also needs to stand up for freedom of speech and plainly state that Islam is an idea and, like all ideas, it is open to scrutiny, criticism, and satire.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EqSuNewrQs[/youtube]

Let's be careful with the terminology we use. If we're at "war" with the Muslims who want to mix their religion with government, we're also at war with the Jews and Christians who want to do the same (and are doing so, to much greater effect, in the West), but I don't see any demands for the president to say that, nor do I expect it will happen. Everyone has a right to express their views in a free society, even if those views are repugnant, and regardless of their religion.

OK, to clarify further: at "war" with those who want to impose and/or are actively imposing Islamism on societies using means other than democracy and in accordance to the constitutions of the societies in question (ISIS fits squarely under this camp). It should also be stated that Islamism is a terrible idea and it would be a tragic mistake to implement it even if using democratic means. The same with Christian Dominionism. If there are those who want to impose Dominionism on societies and/or are actively doing so using means other than democracy, then we are at war with those people as well.

 

[arkirk]

Because it means that their being Muslim is not the problem, but rather that they are blowing shit up and chopping off heads that is the problem, and it is less of a problem for us because they are doing it there instead of doing it here.

It seems to me that a big part of the problem is that they don't think the blowing stuff up and chopping heads off is a problem. They think their god wants them to do it.

They're just doing the same thing Obama and our government is doing to them in return. If you were to visit the site of a drone strike, you would be surprised how inhuman the act that transpired there was and how similar the scattered body parts were to those blown up by a Islamist's bomb. The cutting off of heads is essentially the same thing, only on a more primative level...to be expected from people who don't have drones of their own. ISIS is a reaction to our continuing effort to hang onto the modern version of colonies. It truly cannot be viewed as something that can go anywhere constructive and as such cannot be said to want anything further than some sort of vengeance. We empower ISIS with our violence.

 

[TSwizzle]

OK, to clarify further: at "war" with those who want to impose and/or are actively imposing Islamism on societies using means other than democracy and in accordance to the constitutions of the societies in question (ISIS fits squarely under this camp).

Imposing ?! FFS, there are plenty pious muslims enthusiastically embracing ISIS and their caliphate. Let them get on with it.

 

[Axulus]

OK, to clarify further: at "war" with those who want to impose and/or are actively imposing Islamism on societies using means other than democracy and in accordance to the constitutions of the societies in question (ISIS fits squarely under this camp).

Imposing ?! FFS, there are plenty pious muslims enthusiastically embracing ISIS and their caliphate. Let them get on with it.

I don't see what your point is? There are also far more "pious" muslims rejecting ISIS and their caliphate.

 

[TSwizzle]

Imposing ?! FFS, there are plenty pious muslims enthusiastically embracing ISIS and their caliphate. Let them get on with it.

I don't see what your point is?

The point was at the end, let them get on with it.

There are also far more "pious" muslims rejecting ISIS and their caliphate.

I'm not convinced.