What ISIS Really Wants

[J842P]

I'm going to join the small chorus of recommending that people actually read the OP article. The author is very well-informed and did his homework.

Specifically, he puts the question "but is it Islam?" in a new light. Depending not only on who you ask in general, but which Muslims you ask, entire sections of the Koran are not applicable unless there is an established caliphate. In other words, the Koran that most Muslims read does not include a blanket recommendation for e.g. burning people alive, but it includes such behavior among many situational imperatives, under circumstances ISIS is trying to bring about.

^^^ that. I also found it very interesting that ISIS - by their interpretation of their book - is entirely against involvement in politics. As strange as it sounds about a group that horrifically murders so many people, I find this less dangerous long-term than groups like the Dominionists who are trying to take over our government.

Another point I found interesting, per the article, is that ISIS seems far more intent on expanding territory where they are rather than attacking western countries like Al-Queda. It would seem to me that travel bans for all westerners, and military equipment/support (but not western troops) to geographically contain ISIS would be the best course of action. One thing not mentioned in the article but I think should be included is to allow safe exit to non-ISIS people in the region, if they want it, for their protection.

They are against any involvement in secular politics. They believe all politics should happen under their interpretation of the Islamic framework. They want to take over secular governments in the Islamic world and make them part of the Caliphate. They are the equivalent of Dominionists.

 

[dismal]

Dear liberal Muslim, prophet Mohamed was an islamist.

Thus, Mohamed was not a *real* Muslim, apparently.

Also, I think we should say alleged prophet.

 

[barbos]

Dear liberal Muslim, prophet Mohamed was an islamist.

Thus, Mohamed was not a *real* Muslim, apparently.

Also, I think we should say alleged prophet.

Dear dismal, stop confusing liberal muslims even more.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Dear liberal Muslim, prophet Mohamed was an islamist.

If that's truly the nature of the religion we should take the gloves off and remove them.

 

[RavenSky]

^^^ that. I also found it very interesting that ISIS - by their interpretation of their book - is entirely against involvement in politics. As strange as it sounds about a group that horrifically murders so many people, I find this less dangerous long-term than groups like the Dominionists who are trying to take over our government.

Another point I found interesting, per the article, is that ISIS seems far more intent on expanding territory where they are rather than attacking western countries like Al-Queda. It would seem to me that travel bans for all westerners, and military equipment/support (but not western troops) to geographically contain ISIS would be the best course of action. One thing not mentioned in the article but I think should be included is to allow safe exit to non-ISIS people in the region, if they want it, for their protection.

They are against any involvement in secular politics. They believe all politics should happen under their interpretation of the Islamic framework. They want to take over secular governments in the Islamic world and make them part of the Caliphate. They are the equivalent of Dominionists.

Not exactly (according to the article). While you may be correct that they believe all *political* structure should be according to their view of Islam and under the Caliphate, any attempt to infiltrate or influence existing political structures (even those somewhat observing Sharia law), makes the person doing so no longer part of the Islamic State. This, in my opinion, makes them easier to isolate.

I definitely see strong parallels between ISIS and Domionists, though. Different methods, different religion, same extremist views

 

[Perspicuo]

I'm going to join the small chorus of recommending that people actually read the OP article. The author is very well-informed and did his homework.

The problem here is most people can only see their agenda to destroy religion no matter what.

Although I share the general objective of debating religion out of its murderous, selfish-meme senses, I recognize there are real-world priorities. I care for Muslim lives, and I'm really concerned for the violence and vexation against them... frequently from Christian pots calling out the kettles' blackness.

 

[PyramidHead]

I'm going to join the small chorus of recommending that people actually read the OP article. The author is very well-informed and did his homework.

The problem here is most people can only see their agenda to destroy religion no matter what.

Although I share the general objective of debating religion out of its murderous, selfish-meme senses, I recognize there are real-world priorities. I care for Muslim lives, and I'm really concerned for the violence and vexation against them... frequently from Christian pots calling out the kettles' blackness.

Indeed. But in caring for Muslim lives, we mustn't forget that the biggest threat to Muslim lives right now may be other Muslims. That situation creates a problem for how we frame the debate.

 

[Axulus]

After finishing the article, I'm wondering how good of an idea it really is to make it illegal to travel to Syria. If these individuals believe they have a religious obligation to live in the caliphate, and they are the most extremest and fundamentalist members of this religion, often harboring extremely violent fantasies, it can't be safe for us to have such an individual who is resentful and angry for not being able to travel there freely.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The problem here is most people can only see their agenda to destroy religion no matter what.

Although I share the general objective of debating religion out of its murderous, selfish-meme senses, I recognize there are real-world priorities. I care for Muslim lives, and I'm really concerned for the violence and vexation against them... frequently from Christian pots calling out the kettles' blackness.

Indeed. But in caring for Muslim lives, we mustn't forget that the biggest threat to Muslim lives right now may be other Muslims. That situation creates a problem for how we frame the debate.

ISIS is slaughtering Muslims. Shouldn't be hard to frame that.

 

[arcadia]

Islamo-Christian eschatology

ISIS's strategic goals are derived from the Book of Revelations and their tactics are weakened versions of those sanctioned throughout the Bible.

Here is a link to the wikipedia article on the "Left Behind" series of books which sold 65 million copies and generated 4 feature films a couple of years ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Behind#Plot_summary

Reading this, the most horrid parts of the OT (and a few of the NT) together with the Book Of Revelations, should give most Christians a bit of insight into what these particular Muslims believe and many are willing and eager to die for. They may also be comforted by the passage in the Atlantic article indicating that Jesus is going to lead the Apocalypse, just as in their Book. Of course, more thought would lead to the conclusion that they will then be in the same position as the Jews when the devoutly to be wished for re-conquest of Jerusalem by Christianity happens. You know, our great Judeo-Christian allies today and charred bodies come the Rapture...

The Freethinkers should never forget to remind these folks that once one believes in magic or any supernatural beings, all mens' lives are not just diminished, but subject to elimination or worse at the hands of the Interpreters in Funny Hats.

 

[TSwizzle]

After finishing the article, I'm wondering how good of an idea it really is to make it illegal to travel to Syria. If these individuals believe they have a religious obligation to live in the caliphate, and they are the most extremest and fundamentalist members of this religion, often harboring extremely violent fantasies, it can't be safe for us to have such an individual who is resentful and angry for not being able to travel there freely.

I think the conundrum is what happens if these people come back and why they come back. Some of them are coming back because jihad is not for them and some of them may come back because they want to perform jihad in their country of origin. I'm not sure if there is much evidence of the latter though.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

After finishing the article, I'm wondering how good of an idea it really is to make it illegal to travel to Syria. If these individuals believe they have a religious obligation to live in the caliphate, and they are the most extremest and fundamentalist members of this religion, often harboring extremely violent fantasies, it can't be safe for us to have such an individual who is resentful and angry for not being able to travel there freely.

I think the conundrum is what happens if these people come back and why they come back.

Personally, I'm starting a marketing company and going to enlist there help to find out how ISIS was able to market their barbaric practices and acts as something noble and worth leaving America to go die in the desert for. I'll then use those methods to sell cancer to Americans and get rich.

My rough draft is "Don't let Obama tell you what you shouldn't get for your own body."

 

[arkirk]

Perhaps it is not necessary to give Islam a pass, even if it is all lovey dovey like some of its believers say. I am all for peace between people and have all my life lived in a country whose legislative bodies are dominated by Christians with their own kind of physical and psychological violence, bigotry, racism and other attributes that militate against human cooperation. I do not accept any Muslim belief any more than I do a Christian or Jewish belief and am forced by these religions' prevalence in the human race to tolerate and cope with them.

How does this affect ATHEISTS? I note a lot of our posters come from the Bible Belt and many of them clearly are not Christians. While we exist in a culture that is alien to our own cosmic views, we manage to survive, but this is only due to our own mental resourcefulness. Now along comes ISIS. This is a true bastard even among the religious and its alleged tenets deserve exactly zero consideration. It is the capacity of all these monotheistic religions to morph into things like ISIS that should concern atheists, so you never really should give even "moderate" versions of these religions any particular preference in their struggle for adherents and dominance. They all have a long history of violence against Atheists.

I have had some very pleasant relations with Quakers and Jewish, and even a few Muslim people. That was because my relations were with the people and not Quakerism or Judaism or Islam. All of these religions accept some sort of apocalyptic myth in their cosmic view and stop short of seeking the truth at some point, retreating to their myths. You cannot condemn these people because they are good people and it is a joy to relate to them in so many ways...except their fucking religion.

ISIS is about as ugly a face as any religion can wear, but it does have its parallels in the Christian and Jewish and Hindu worlds. It is hard to imagine what IT wants. The important thing is not to feed it. Atheists in the Christian world years for over a thousand years had to concern themselves with maintaining a paucity of evidence that they were witches. Modern Christian fundamentalists are capable of every bit the violence of ISIS, in the event they achieve sufficient license to act on their beliefs. We feed this violence when we compete with them unfairly. That is the situation in the middle east. Religion is fed by ignorance, poverty, and denial of HUMAN RIGHTS. What you see in ISIS and Al Qaeda are just the fundamentalists answer to military and economic domination of their countries. With them, the only answer is disengagement and starving their motivations to violence. We are not going to make them stop believing their crazy beliefs for a long time.

 

[arcadia]

I think the conundrum is what happens if these people come back and why they come back.

Personally, I'm starting a marketing company and going to enlist there help to find out how ISIS was able to market their barbaric practices and acts as something noble and worth leaving America to go die in the desert for. I'll then use those methods to sell cancer to Americans and get rich.

You should probably ask the Crusaders. Or Moses. Or perhaps some of our Iraq Vets. Of course there's always that whack-job Air Force General (Boykin?) who said he saw the face of god in a bomb explosion cloud over Baghdad...

Of course the sad thing is that now, with missiles and drones and other remote technologies you don't have to be there to incinerate, eviscerate and decapitate civilians. Poor General Boykin doesn't even get to see the cloud of smoke anymore, much less the face in it.

 

[Shadowy Man]

It is the capacity of all these monotheistic religions to morph into things like ISIS that should concern atheists, so you never really should give even "moderate" versions of these religions any particular preference in their struggle for adherents and dominance.

If there's a group of people who really want to run around and kill others, I don't think the lack of finding a suitable religion to follow is going to stop them. History has shown that to be true. Going after regular people who follow religions moderately isn't going to stop the problem of extremism.

 

[barbos]

It is the capacity of all these monotheistic religions to morph into things like ISIS that should concern atheists, so you never really should give even "moderate" versions of these religions any particular preference in their struggle for adherents and dominance.

If there's a group of people who really want to run around and kill others, I don't think the lack of finding a suitable religion to follow is going to stop them.

True, it did not stop Mohamed and his followers.

History has shown that to be true. Going after regular people who follow religions moderately isn't going to stop the problem of extremism.

How do you feel about moderate nazi?

 

[fromderinside]

There are more rotten fish being dragged across this debate than is necessary or useful. Bottom line. A groups wants power. That group finds a situation where government has failed. It takes on the trappings of the culture there and tells the world it is doing God's work and that this is the final coming or some other such rot. Nothing Muslim about this story other than the parties involved are Muslims and they have identified a great Satan and anti faith who they are fighting to purify the Muslim world.

Its so flawed that it denies learning and peace which are dominant themes in the Koran, it murders using methods designed to horrify rather than designed to reflect fundamental beliefs. These are anarchists trying to regain some measure of status after they were kicked out as rulers of Iraq under Saddam Hussein's Baathist rule. It may as well have been the  Red Brigades of Italy or that  Red Army Faction in Germany or the  Weather Underground in the US. Self appointed saviors and vengeance seekers who were actually just violent nihilists trying to bring down established world order.

There is no thing we're involved which deserves a flag raising statue or legend. Its about oil and raw power and keeping some sort of order- ah yeas we are going to spend as much money as we can to demonstrate our virtue - until we get our acts together and recognize that we're actually in a new golden age of enlightenment where people are all treated like people.

 

[RavenSky]

An example of someone who just doesn't get it:

Is it time to take action against the ISIS menace? 45 people burned to death! Americans are targets, and ISIS has declared war on the US. Must we tip toe through the tulips? We recently remembered Churchill on the 50th anniversary of his death. He would not have excused inaction. No one longs for war, but there are times when fighting is required to secure the peace. How long can we sit idly by? Will it take another 9/11 to rouse the sleepy and quicken the faint-hearted?

One of my cousins, unfortunately

 

[RavenSky]

After finishing the article, I'm wondering how good of an idea it really is to make it illegal to travel to Syria. If these individuals believe they have a religious obligation to live in the caliphate, and they are the most extremest and fundamentalist members of this religion, often harboring extremely violent fantasies, it can't be safe for us to have such an individual who is resentful and angry for not being able to travel there freely.

Good point, though I was thinking more in terms of people like Peter Kassig, Steven Sotloff, James Foley, Kayla Mueller and the others from all of the countries who went there to help but instead provided targets for ISIS

BTW, another good article on the topic

 

[Underseer]

Obama for some reason has real problems with identifying Islamic terrorism as Islamic.

The problem is you, Derec.

Right now, most of the Muslim world is horrified at what ISIS is doing. This is a perfect time to drive a wedge between violent radicals and the rest of Islam. ISIS and other violent radical groups want to avoid this by painting the conflict as all of Islam versus all non-Muslims. By demanding that we hold all of Islam accountable for what ISIS is doing, you are framing this debate exactly the way ISIS wants it. They want to polarize the world so that any moderate that criticizes them for what they do can be dismissed as being "with the Zionists" and they can use the "Great Satan America" boogeyman to recruit new members and raise funds from people who otherwise might not consider it.

Why are you doing something so counterproductive? Because of rightist propaganda, of course. You see, waving the "all Muslims are terrorists" boogeyman around, the right wing establishment can use these scare stories to increase political donations and donations to a variety of right wing causes. They don't give a fuck if you do something that helps the terrorists as long as it increases the money they get from fund-raising efforts. So they constantly push your fear buttons while screaming "Muslims! BOOGA BOOGA BOOGA BOOGA!" and you fall for it because you're too afraid to think straight. You're being manipulated and radicalized in a manner very similar to what goes on in the Muslim world.