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What ISIS Really Wants

Because it's not just ISIS, there's Pakistani Taliban, Afgani Taliban, Boko Haram, among others. The thing these all have in common: they are radical Islamist and they are willing to use violence and terrorism to implement their vision of society by force.

They are fundamentalists. I don't see anything "radical" in what ISIS is trying to implement. It's not their vision of society they are attempting to implement, it is an unadulterated islamic vision.

And yes, distinguishing these guys from other Muslims I think is very important. People aren't buying that these radical guys aren't really Muslims, the public is smart enough to see through the no true Scotsman fallacy.

Indeed.
 
Good related article my Naajid Nawaz:

The fact is that terror, as a phenomenon, cannot be anticipated or countered without neutralizing the ideas it is built upon. More than a battle of arms or actions, what we have is a battle of ideas, a “clash of civilizations.” The academic rigor of this idea may have been challenged since Samuel Huntington first coined the term, but that matters little to an impressionable public fed with stories of violent political Islam or, on the other side, anti-Western, Muslim-versus-non-Muslim narratives. When these narratives go unchallenged, they render acceptable the acts of violence that occur in either direction. The two cycles feed each other.

We must break the loop by pushing back against the underlying narrative. This will require not just the voice of Muslims but the whole of civil society standing in solidarity with those Muslims brave enough to challenge the extremists in their midst. There must be an open discussion about interpretations of blasphemy codes within Islam. Islam is an idea: Like all other ideas, it is open to scrutiny and satire. This is how we progress.

In Europe there is a great tradition of tolerance for difference and freedom for religion. Far too many citizens, however, become silently complicit when this tolerance and freedom is threatened by jihadist violence. But merely opposing violence is not enough. We must oppose the notion that Islam, or any narrow interpretation of the faith, is above criticism. If we learn to challenge the ideology of those who have hijacked our faith, we will build the resilience that will allow us to prosper in a modern society. Furthermore, to accuse this view of being Islamophobic takes advantage of those in Western society who are desperate not to be considered offensive. It allows extremists to prosper without the checks and balances of critical thinking, returning us to the Dark Ages.

...

The civil-society response required to effectively challenge extremism is gaining momentum. The barbaric actions of the jihadist gunmen have prompted French citizens to take to the streets in solidarity with the victims and to defend free speech. This, and other positive responses, must continue beyond the immediate period of mourning. We must choose fight instead of flight, but we must fight smart, with improved integration, with messages of pluralism and the compatibility of Islam and human rights in our education programs, and with the promotion of positive role models.

We must also avoid unhelpful responses to Islamist extremism. Populist far-right organizations gaining traction across Europe are part of the problem. They exacerbate the grievances exploited by those who wish to radicalize, mobilize and mentally colonize European Muslims. We must recall that the first victims of Islamist terror are very often Muslims, and must collectively mourn Ahmed Merabet, the French-Muslim police officer killed at the scene of the Charlie Hebdo attack.

If we are to successfully challenge Islamist extremism, it will be from the center, not from the other extremity of political thought.

This ideological fight will inevitably be a protracted one, at a time when the public, not unreasonably, is anxious for quick solutions to guarantee public safety. But radical Islamists are already fighting a long war of ideas. The real question for everyone else is whether we’re prepared to engage in that fight, too.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/maajid-nawaz-neutralizing-radical-islamism-1421004689
 
Yo, ISIS, tell us what you want, what you really, really want
So tell us what you want, what you really, really want
They'll tell us what they want, what they really, really want
So tell us what you want, what you really, really want
They wanna, (ha) they wanna, (ha) they wanna, (ha) they wanna, (ha)
They wanna really, really, really wanna zigazig ah
 
They are fundamentalists. I don't see anything "radical" in what ISIS is trying to implement. It's not their vision of society they are attempting to implement, it is an unadulterated islamic vision.

And yes, distinguishing these guys from other Muslims I think is very important. People aren't buying that these radical guys aren't really Muslims, the public is smart enough to see through the no true Scotsman fallacy.

Indeed.

It's a label - by radical I mean they are either willing to use violence and terror or support the use of violence and terror to implement Islamism on societies.

The only way to obtain long-term results is to support and empower the moderate/secular Muslims. We must make it known that their version of Islam is compatible with democracy and human rights and they must be free to criticize Islamism. We need to support them in those efforts.
 
Because it's not just ISIS, there's Pakistani Taliban, Afgani Taliban, Boko Haram, among others. The thing these all have in common: they are radical Islamist and they are willing to use violence and terrorism to implement their vision of society by force.
And what in their name is causing any confusion? Are people in America confusing the Pakistani Taliban as a human rights aid foundation? Are people in Europe confusing ISIS for Fiber Optics company?

And yes, distinguishing these guys from other Muslims I think is very important.
Well, the second you link them with Islam, you've already lost that propaganda war.
People aren't buying that these radical guys aren't really Muslims, the public is smart enough to see through the no true Scotsman fallacy.
Sure, they are radical Muslims. But you seem to be failing to understand how harmping that they are Muslims is counterproductive and only helps in their drive to convince vulnerable people that this is a war against Islam.
 
They are fundamentalists. I don't see anything "radical" in what ISIS is trying to implement. It's not their vision of society they are attempting to implement, it is an unadulterated islamic vision.



Indeed.

It's a label - by radical I mean they are either willing to use violence and terror or support the use of violence and terror to implement Islamism on societies.

The only way to obtain long-term results is to support and empower the moderate/secular Muslims. We must make it known that their version of Islam is compatible with democracy and human rights and they must be free to criticize Islamism. We need to support them in those efforts.

In the eyes of middle and far east victims of drones, your definition fits Obama and OUR GOVERNMENT. Obama is completely willing to use violence and terror and supports the use of violence and terror to implement his whatever (which truly remains undefined for fear of the opinion polls).

It is highly possible that NO VERSION OF MONOTHEISTIC RELIGION is compatible with democracy and human rights. People who practice these religions have to shed some of the dogma in order to continue to live with the results of democracy which does not worship their god. Just take note of the deaths of abortion doctors in America at the hands of those who would not shed some of their fundamentalist doctrines. It becomes clear that one can only partly accept Christian doctrines if one wishes to avoid being a terrorist. In truth, the dominant doctrines in America are materialism, capitalism, and prudent religious hypocrisy. It pains me to see atheists use the language of the latter.
 
And what in their name is causing any confusion? Are people in America confusing the Pakistani Taliban as a human rights aid foundation? Are people in Europe confusing ISIS for Fiber Optics company?

What is causing confusion is that they adhere to a distinct form of Islam. The public seems to have difficulty understanding that and are confusing these guys for all Muslims or think all Muslims have sympathies for these guys.

Well, the second you link them with Islam, you've already lost that propaganda war.

How so?

Sure, they are radical Muslims. But you seem to be failing to understand how harmping that they are Muslims is counterproductive and only helps in their drive to convince vulnerable people that this is a war against Islam.

People are already convinced this is a war against Islam. They are just completely ignorant that it is only against a particular variety of Islam. These kind of distinctions need to be made and they aren't buying this pussyfooting around the issue that these guys aren't *really* Muslims.

What needs to be made clear is that the war is only against _some types_ of Islam, not all of Islam and not all Muslims. ISIS would love nothing more than for people to think it is a war against Islam as a whole.
 
And what in their name is causing any confusion? Are people in America confusing the Pakistani Taliban as a human rights aid foundation? Are people in Europe confusing ISIS for Fiber Optics company?
Well, the The Institute for Science and International Security ain't all that happy for the acronyn confusion. At least these crazy bastards won't face the wrath of the Egyptian God of Love ;)
 
What is causing confusion is that they adhere to a distinct form of Islam. The public seems to have difficulty understanding that and are confusing these guys for all Muslims or think all Muslims have sympathies for these guys.

Well, the second you link them with Islam, you've already lost that propaganda war.

How so?

Sure, they are radical Muslims. But you seem to be failing to understand how harmping that they are Muslims is counterproductive and only helps in their drive to convince vulnerable people that this is a war against Islam.

People are already convinced this is a war against Islam. They are just completely ignorant that it is only against a particular variety of Islam. These kind of distinctions need to be made and they aren't buying this pussyfooting around the issue that these guys aren't *really* Muslims.

What needs to be made clear is that the war is only against _some types_ of Islam, not all of Islam and not all Muslims. ISIS would love nothing more than for people to think it is a war against Islam as a whole.

The fight over there is for the control of the area for the purpose of exploiting its resources by outside forces. The other side of the conflict is very under armed and under funded and is using everything at its disposal including religious fanaticism to carry on their fight. ISIS just brings a revival tent into the conflict...really nothing new. Also, nothing really different from other historic conflicts in the region.
 
What is causing confusion is that they adhere to a distinct form of Islam.
I don't believe the Qu'ran says it is alright to burn people alive.
The public seems to have difficulty understanding that and are confusing these guys for all Muslims or think all Muslims have sympathies for these guys.
Really?

Well, the second you link them with Islam, you've already lost that propaganda war.
How so?
Banners, web pages, etc... the same stuff used to get kids to want to blow themselves up.

Sure, they are radical Muslims. But you seem to be failing to understand how harmping that they are Muslims is counterproductive and only helps in their drive to convince vulnerable people that this is a war against Islam.
People are already convinced this is a war against Islam.
Are they?
They are just completely ignorant that it is only against a particular variety of Islam.
Or assholes.
These kind of distinctions need to be made and they aren't buying this pussyfooting around the issue that these guys aren't *really* Muslims.

What needs to be made clear is that the war is only against _some types_ of Islam, not all of Islam and not all Muslims. ISIS would love nothing more than for people to think it is a war against Islam as a whole.
And adding that -ism will clear things up? The same people that don't understand the barbarity in ISIS controlled territory isn't reflected in the acts of Muslims in the US? Adding the -ism suffix will change that?
 
It seems to me that a big part of the problem is that they don't think the blowing stuff up and chopping heads off is a problem. They think their god wants them to do it.

But the majority of Muslims do not agree with them, therefor, once again, the problem is not that they are Muslim.

You seem to be dancing about playing word games. In the mean time people motivated by religious beliefs that you dare not label are sawing off heads, crucifying apostates and enslaving women and children.
 
I'm going to join the small chorus of recommending that people actually read the OP article. The author is very well-informed and did his homework.

Specifically, he puts the question "but is it Islam?" in a new light. Depending not only on who you ask in general, but which Muslims you ask, entire sections of the Koran are not applicable unless there is an established caliphate. In other words, the Koran that most Muslims read does not include a blanket recommendation for e.g. burning people alive, but it includes such behavior among many situational imperatives, under circumstances ISIS is trying to bring about.
 
I don't believe the Qu'ran says it is alright to burn people alive.

You haven't seen the extreme twisting, logical fallacies and interpretations faith heads are able to come up with to support their beliefs? People of all faiths seem to do it to an extent. There is little Biblical support for modern day liberal Christianity - would you accuse them of not being "real" Christians (as if there is a "real" Christianity or a "real" Islam).


Yes, really. It's even happening in this thread with other posters.

Banners, web pages, etc... the same stuff used to get kids to want to blow themselves up.

And if they are lead to believe that the west is at war with all of Islam, which would include their version, they'll be more enticed to join.

Are they?

Yes - conflation between all Muslims and all of Islam vs. ISIS and other radical branches happens regularly. The more they are conflated, the more likely the narrative that the west is at war with all of Islam will win out, empowering radicals.

Or assholes.

People are also very dumb and easily misled when it triggers their tribal instincts. Which is why the distinction needs to be made, repeatedly, until those who deny it or are still confused about it are looked upon as no different than holocaust deniers.

And adding that -ism will clear things up? The same people that don't understand the barbarity in ISIS controlled territory isn't reflected in the acts of Muslims in the US? Adding the -ism suffix will change that?

Yes, as long is the distinction is made repeatedly and hammered into people's heads. The message needs to penetrate as many as possible. Some are obviously hopeless cases, but there are many who are not.
 
Obama for some reason has real problems with identifying Islamic terrorism as Islamic.

I think he's trying to avoid tarring all Muslims but the net effect is very much a case of head-in-sand.
 
And what in their name is causing any confusion? Are people in America confusing the Pakistani Taliban as a human rights aid foundation? Are people in Europe confusing ISIS for Fiber Optics company?
Well, the The Institute for Science and International Security ain't all that happy for the acronyn confusion. At least these crazy bastards won't face the wrath of the Egyptian God of Love ;)

At my old workplace, we had an information security project called ISIS. It was funny seeing all the documentation peole sitting around working on things like "ISIS Implementation" and the like.
 
Obama for some reason has real problems with identifying Islamic terrorism as Islamic.

I think he's trying to avoid tarring all Muslims but the net effect is very much a case of head-in-sand.

Yes, the problem is the method he (and his sympathizers) are using to avoid tarring all Muslims: using the no true Scotsman fallacy to claim they aren't *real* Muslims. Why not just use a non-fallacy to distinguish them: they are radical Islamists who follow an interpretation of Islam that is incompatible with western values and human rights. An interpretation which is _not_ followed by all Muslims. There is not just *one* Islam. There are so many on the right wing who think all Muslims are similar or that there really is only one *true* Islam. Ironically, the radical Islamists also think there is only *one true Islam*, so the right wing is playing right into their hands, with the left giving them logical support by also seemingly saying that there is true Islam and fake Islam (turning it into a meaningless theological debate about what is "true" and "fake" Islam, with Quranic verses being tossed out, etc.)
 
Obama for some reason has real problems with identifying Islamic terrorism as Islamic.

I think he's trying to avoid tarring all Muslims but the net effect is very much a case of head-in-sand.

Come off this "terrorism" jag. Terrorism is the result of anger and frustration. A person is not a terrorist by nature, but you squeeze him hard enough and he will try to do something terrible to you and yours. Terrorism is a reactive thing, not something a person with satisfactory social relationships does. Only a very tiny tiny percentage of any population is capable of inventing grievances that are used to justify terrorist acts. People who have their loved ones bombed, people who are tortured (either actually or they imagine they are being tortured), people who feel hopeless...these people resort to extreme acts.

The problem you have is in discriminating between a resultant of the creation of conditions that promote hopeless feelings and a personal attribute. If we had less injustice, we would have less terrorism. Yes, many people have done terrible terrorist acts. They have made exactly the same mistake you are making...that two wrongs can somehow equal a right. By promoting things like drones and bombing campaigns and assasinations, you are creating in other locations the very same kind of terror to which you seem to object if it happens in your country. Understand that violence is violence, whether self righteous people can justify it or not, and it is always wrong.
 
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I'm going to join the small chorus of recommending that people actually read the OP article. The author is very well-informed and did his homework.

Specifically, he puts the question "but is it Islam?" in a new light. Depending not only on who you ask in general, but which Muslims you ask, entire sections of the Koran are not applicable unless there is an established caliphate. In other words, the Koran that most Muslims read does not include a blanket recommendation for e.g. burning people alive, but it includes such behavior among many situational imperatives, under circumstances ISIS is trying to bring about.

^^^ that. I also found it very interesting that ISIS - by their interpretation of their book - is entirely against involvement in politics. As strange as it sounds about a group that horrifically murders so many people, I find this less dangerous long-term than groups like the Dominionists who are trying to take over our government.

Another point I found interesting, per the article, is that ISIS seems far more intent on expanding territory where they are rather than attacking western countries like Al-Queda. It would seem to me that travel bans for all westerners, and military equipment/support (but not western troops) to geographically contain ISIS would be the best course of action. One thing not mentioned in the article but I think should be included is to allow safe exit to non-ISIS people in the region, if they want it, for their protection.
 
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