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What really happened in Abottabad

Call me skeptical. There seem to be holes in the story. For example, the article essentially claims that there was no vaccination program used to collect the DNA from bin Laden's compound - it was all made up as part of an elaborate cover-story after the fact.

Yet it was the Pakistanis who claimed to have uncovered the vaccination program upon their investigation.

Shakil Afridi (Urdu: شکیل آفریدی‎) – or Shakeel Afridi – is a Pakistani physician who helped the CIA run a fake hepatitis vaccine program[2] in Abbottabad, Pakistan, to confirm Osama bin Laden's presence in the city by obtaining DNA samples.[3] Details of his activities emerged during the Pakistani investigation of the deadly raid on bin Laden's residence.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakil_Afridi

If the Pakistanis were pissed about being sold down the river by not being given any credit for their role, why would they participate in the elaborate cover-up involving all sorts of made up details such as the one above? If it was a lie, we must be reminded that it had devastating consequences for the vaccination programs being carried out in these areas, which resulted in the murders of several vaccine program participants. It would be an elaborate conspiracy theory. It's hard to imagine it would just be coming out now, and it would be quite puzzling that no senior officials in Pakistan have gone on the record spilling the beans, especially given their displeasure about Obama's story and the frayed ties that resulted.
 
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More reasons to be skeptical:

Hersh's 1997 book about John F. Kennedy, The Dark Side of Camelot, made a number of controversial assertions about the former president, including that he had had a "first marriage" to a woman named Durie Malcolm that was never terminated, that he had been a semi-regular narcotics user, that he had a close working relationship with mob boss Sam Giancana which supposedly included vote fraud in one or two crucial states in the 1960 presidential election. For many of these claims, Hersh relied only on hearsay collected decades after the event. In a Los Angeles Times review, Edward Jay Epstein cast doubt on these and other assertions, writing, "this book turns out to be, alas, more about the deficiencies of investigative journalism than about the deficiencies of John F. Kennedy."[6] Responding to the book, historian and former Kennedy aide Arthur Schlesinger, Jr. called Hersh "the most gullible investigative reporter I've ever encountered."[45]

...

Some have criticized Hersh's use of anonymous sources in his reporting, implying that some of these sources are unreliable or even made up. In a review of Hersh's book, Chain of Command, commentator Amir Taheri wrote, "As soon as he has made an assertion he cites a 'source' to back it. In every case this is either an un-named former official or an unidentified secret document passed to Hersh in unknown circumstances... By my count Hersh has anonymous 'sources' inside 30 foreign governments and virtually every department of the U.S. government."[7]

David Remnick, the editor of The New Yorker, maintains that he is aware of the identity of all of Hersh's unnamed sources, telling the Columbia Journalism Review that "I know every single source that is in his pieces.... Every 'retired intelligence officer,' every general with reason to know, and all those phrases that one has to use, alas, by necessity, I say, 'Who is it? What's his interest?' We talk it through."[53]

Nevertheless, in response to an article in The New Yorker in which Hersh alleged that the U.S. government was planning a strike on Iran, U.S. Defense Department spokesman Bryan G. Whitman said, "This reporter has a solid and well-earned reputation for making dramatic assertions based on thinly sourced, unverifiable anonymous sources."[8]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh#Criticism

He also seems to have been convinced long ago that the whole affair was "one big lie"

Back in 2013:

"Nothing's been done about that story, it's one big lie, not one word of it is true,"
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http://www.theguardian.com/media/media-blog/2013/sep/27/seymour-hersh-obama-nsa-american-media

This could very well be a case of a very flimsy/unreliable source feeding him what he wants to hear, which apparently this journalist has been known to rely upon from time to time.
 
I am surprised there is so much argument about such inconsequential information. From all indications, Osama Bin Laden had already pretty much shot his wad in terms of gaining influence and losing it, along with a lot of his money. Almost any of these scenarios are possible but so what? Pakistanis may have found out about the raid through its own intelligence operations...or been told by official U.S. sources or leaked it by other U.S. sources or perhaps not have known. I feel the "They didn't know " story sounds the least likely. What has always concerned me about this operation was the murder of an untried suspect and then the dumping of critical evidence in the ocean by U.S. forces ACCORDING TO OBAMA'S ORDER. That part of the story remains intact and I have always that is a gross blot on the record of his operations. Osama should have been captured...not murdered.
 
arkirk said:
I am surprised there is so much argument about such inconsequential information. From all indications, Osama Bin Laden had already pretty much shot his wad in terms of gaining influence and losing it, along with a lot of his money. Almost any of these scenarios are possible but so what? Pakistanis may have found out about the raid through its own intelligence operations...or been told by official U.S. sources or leaked it by other U.S. sources or perhaps not have known. I feel the "They didn't know " story sounds the least likely. What has always concerned me about this operation was the murder of an untried suspect and then the dumping of critical evidence in the ocean by U.S. forces ACCORDING TO OBAMA'S ORDER. That part of the story remains intact and I have always that is a gross blot on the record of his operations. Osama should have been captured...not murdered.
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I'm actually good with his being shot in the face and dumped in the ocean. Rule of law is good and everything, but this is a guy who really did deserve to get shot in the face and dumped in the ocean.
 
Axulus said:
Call me skeptical. There seem to be holes in the story. For example, the article essentially claims that there was no vaccination program used to collect the DNA from bin Laden's compound - it was all made up as part of an elaborate cover-story after the fact.
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My reading of the article was that there was a vaccination program but it played no part in the discovery of Bin Laden (other than as a cover).

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Axulus said:
Call me skeptical. There seem to be holes in the story. For example, the article essentially claims that there was no vaccination program used to collect the DNA from bin Laden's compound - it was all made up as part of an elaborate cover-story after the fact.
Click to expand...

My reading of the article was that there was a vaccination program but it played no part in the discovery of Bin Laden (other than as a cover).
 
The most blatant lie was that Pakistan’s two most senior military leaders – General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, chief of the army staff, and General Ahmed Shuja Pasha, director general of the ISI – were never informed of the US mission.
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Proof that this is a lie is this?

This remains the White House position despite an array of reports that have raised questions, including one by Carlotta Gall in the New York Times Magazine of 19 March 2014. Gall, who spent 12 years as the Times correspondent in Afghanistan, wrote that she’d been told by a ‘Pakistani official’ that Pasha had known before the raid that bin Laden was in Abbottabad.
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WTF? Just because Pasha knew (allegedly) that OBL was in Abottabod doesn't mean he knew of the raid.
 
ZiprHead said:
Proof that this is a lie is this?

This remains the White House position despite an array of reports that have raised questions, including one by Carlotta Gall in the New York Times Magazine of 19 March 2014. Gall, who spent 12 years as the Times correspondent in Afghanistan, wrote that she’d been told by a ‘Pakistani official’ that Pasha had known before the raid that bin Laden was in Abbottabad.
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WTF? Just because Pasha knew (allegedly) that OBL was in Abottabod doesn't mean he knew of the raid.
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Yeah, this alternative theory is pretty incoherent.
 
jonatha said:
My reading of the article was that there was a vaccination program but it played no part in the discovery of Bin Laden (other than as a cover).
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But being that the official story is that the vaccination program was actually not successful in determining that OBL was living there, what exactly was it a cover for?
 
Axulus said:
Call me skeptical. There seem to be holes in the story. For example, the article essentially claims that there was no vaccination program used to collect the DNA from bin Laden's compound - it was all made up as part of an elaborate cover-story after the fact.
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My reading of the article is that it acknowledges there was a (legitimate) vaccination program but that (contrary to the cover story) it played no role in discovering Bin Laden's location.

If the Pakistanis were pissed about being sold down the river by not being given any credit for their role, why would they participate in the elaborate cover-up involving all sorts of made up details such as the one above?
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My reading of the article is that the Pakistanis were pissed that Bin Laden was revealed to have been in Pakistan (rather than Afghanistan), and that they were anxious for a cover to avoid revealing their complicity in his assassination.

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Bronzeage said:
jonatha said:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n10/seymour-m-hersh/the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden

Sounds quite plausible
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"Plausible" is the last word I would use to describe this story.
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Would you care to elaborate?

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Axulus said:
jonatha said:
My reading of the article was that there was a vaccination program but it played no part in the discovery of Bin Laden (other than as a cover).
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But being that the official story is that the vaccination program was actually not successful in determining that OBL was living there, what exactly was it a cover for?
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It wasn't a cover for anything. It was a straight vaccination program.

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barbos said:
jonatha said:
My reading of the article was that there was a vaccination program but it played no part in the discovery of Bin Laden (other than as a cover).
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Cover for what/whom?
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For the Pakistani officials who allowed the US to come in and kill Bin Laden.
 
barbos said:
fromderinside said:
People coming door to door? Just sayin......
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You mean killing bin Laden was a cover for vaccination? :)
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:D:D

No other way to get Pakistanis vaccinated. So eyup!

Who gives a damn about a tall skinny bearded man now not so rich man hiding out near the Pakistan army training center in 2011 anyway?

The hype spawned ISIS and created the Ebola outbreak donchano.
 
jonatha said:
My reading of the article is that it acknowledges there was a (legitimate) vaccination program but that (contrary to the cover story) it played no role in discovering Bin Laden's location.

If the Pakistanis were pissed about being sold down the river by not being given any credit for their role, why would they participate in the elaborate cover-up involving all sorts of made up details such as the one above?
Click to expand...

My reading of the article is that the Pakistanis were pissed that Bin Laden was revealed to have been in Pakistan (rather than Afghanistan), and that they were anxious for a cover to avoid revealing their complicity in his assassination.


Bronzeage said:
jonatha said:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n10/seymour-m-hersh/the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden

Sounds quite plausible
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"Plausible" is the last word I would use to describe this story.
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Would you care to elaborate?
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Hersh's account of the bin Laden raid is a farrago of nonsense that is contravened by a multitude of eyewitness accounts, inconvenient facts and simple common sense.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/11/opinions/bergen-bin-laden-story-a-lie/index.html
 
The Pakistanis say they were never fooled.

Some intelligence people and some in the military feel they were ill used by Obama.

That's about all I get out of it.
 
Tom Sawyer said:
arkirk said:
I am surprised there is so much argument about such inconsequential information. From all indications, Osama Bin Laden had already pretty much shot his wad in terms of gaining influence and losing it, along with a lot of his money. Almost any of these scenarios are possible but so what? Pakistanis may have found out about the raid through its own intelligence operations...or been told by official U.S. sources or leaked it by other U.S. sources or perhaps not have known. I feel the "They didn't know " story sounds the least likely. What has always concerned me about this operation was the murder of an untried suspect and then the dumping of critical evidence in the ocean by U.S. forces ACCORDING TO OBAMA'S ORDER. That part of the story remains intact and I have always that is a gross blot on the record of his operations. Osama should have been captured...not murdered.
Click to expand...

I'm actually good with his being shot in the face and dumped in the ocean. Rule of law is good and everything, but this is a guy who really did deserve to get shot in the face and dumped in the ocean.
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You are falling victim to HIS ETHICAL PHILOSOPHY...NOT A GOOD IDEA, I FEEL. It is understandable how and why you feel as you do, but the overarching issues never seem to get resolved by shooting them in the face and dumping them in the ocean. In the course of Bin Laden's life he became a living legend to many and by summarily executing him, we sacrificed two important possibilities: The first is sorting out just what part of his legend is fact and which part is fiction. The second is a a very public trial and an analysis of the assertions he made in justification of his actions, leading possibly to the debunking of a lot of them and a basis for both sides backing away from unnecessary continuance of unnecessary conflict.

As it is, he is now an untouchable legend and we still have no clue as to how to cope with Jihad or indeed what caused it. His statements were all made from the shadow of impenetrable security and mostly unrebutted in the Islamic world. Also, in some quarters, we elevated his status to that of SUPER MARTYR. Your and indeed most people's response to this guy is viceral and I know it is possible to bathe in the momentary euphoria of triumphalism, but if you look at what we have left to look at, it is not the best we could have hoped for and striven to see.
 
I will say that I've always found it hard to believe that the raid occurred without the consent of the Pakistani military and the ISI. I'd bet that the Pakistani military and the United States have a sort of gentleman's agreement that allows the USA to conduct operations inside of Pakistan but lets the Pakistanis deny knowledge and feign disapproval and indignation for the sake of appearances.
 
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