What should happen to the ISIS Brides?

[DrZoidberg]

If you strip them from their citizenship, then what's your plan? If you decide USA should not take them in then you're just dumping your problems on somebody else.

I thought you were a guy who like to hold people responsible for their actions? Have you changed your mind about that? Perhaps now you're all about ignoring responsibility and just seeing what you can get away with? I'm seriously curious about your plan here?

I think we already went down this path. You can go back and read what I said to these questions before if you like.

All you said was that you misread my post. And added something about taking responsibility for their actions. But I'm not seeing any evidence you like taking responsibility for your actions. No?

 

[DBT]

Some may have went into it naively. Young girls making bad decisions. Decisions that they lived to regret. Others may continue to embrace the teachings of ISIS without doubt or question......so it seems to me to be a case by case proposition.

 

[repoman]

Yeah we have to be able to get away from ethnoreligious retribution.

 

[steve_bank]

Revocation of green card or passport/citizenship. If

Pass legislation that if you go abroad and take up arms against the USA or support it you loose any right to be here.

So then Americans can't move to any other country or lose citizenship? BA-dum-TSCH

Proving that somebody took up arms in another country is notoriously hard to prove. Wars, by their nature, are messy. There's an old saying that the first causality of war is the truth. Right now fighters who have fought for ISIS will just say they went to Syria to do humanitarian work and good luck proving they didn't. And they do have all the correctly rubber-stamped official paperwork. Just proving what side they fought on is damn near impossible. Even if they were taken as prisoners of war... like I said... wars are messy. If somebody shoots at you, you are going to shoot back. It can easily get confusing and it is easy take the wrong people prisoners by mistake.

Here's a good Invisibilia show talking about just this. It's from 2016 and is about how Denmark is coping with young Muslim men who have fought for ISIS and then returned. Denmark has no PC culture. It's a very straight shooting place. They talk with a policeman who explains the legal problems of preventing these men for returning to Denmark. And he explains why it's a fantasy to think that we can prevent them. Even if we try putting laws in place to catch it, it won't work.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health...town-helped-young-muslims-turn-away-from-isis

So any claims that we shouldn't be "soft on terrorists" and such talk is just posturing. It's not realistic and we need to get real.

I believe it is against the law for any citizen over here to join a foreign military. I believe if an American joins the French Foreign Legion he has to give up citizenship.

Going to the Mideast to enact and support armed aggression against us is not moving to another country. We have taken in people frpm miserable conditions and helped them get a start here. Some saw fit to go join terrorists.

The hell with them.

In the VN War Jane Fonda went to North Vietnam and had her picture taken next to a tank and NV soldiers. We shoulf nsvr expelled her, she could have lived in France or other places.

There is political dissent and opposition under 5the constitution. Giving aid and comfort to an enemy in time of war is treason.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Revocation of green card or passport/citizenship. If

Pass legislation that if you go abroad and take up arms against the USA or support it you loose any right to be here.

So then Americans can't move to any other country or lose citizenship? BA-dum-TSCH

Proving that somebody took up arms in another country is notoriously hard to prove. Wars, by their nature, are messy. There's an old saying that the first causality of war is the truth. Right now fighters who have fought for ISIS will just say they went to Syria to do humanitarian work and good luck proving they didn't. And they do have all the correctly rubber-stamped official paperwork. Just proving what side they fought on is damn near impossible. Even if they were taken as prisoners of war... like I said... wars are messy. If somebody shoots at you, you are going to shoot back. It can easily get confusing and it is easy take the wrong people prisoners by mistake.

Here's a good Invisibilia show talking about just this. It's from 2016 and is about how Denmark is coping with young Muslim men who have fought for ISIS and then returned. Denmark has no PC culture. It's a very straight shooting place. They talk with a policeman who explains the legal problems of preventing these men for returning to Denmark. And he explains why it's a fantasy to think that we can prevent them. Even if we try putting laws in place to catch it, it won't work.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health...town-helped-young-muslims-turn-away-from-isis

So any claims that we shouldn't be "soft on terrorists" and such talk is just posturing. It's not realistic and we need to get real.

I believe it is against the law for any citizen over here to join a foreign military. I believe if an American joins the French Foreign Legion he has to give up citizenship.

Going to the Mideast to enact and support armed aggression against us is not moving to another country. We have taken in people frpm miserable conditions and helped them get a start here. Some saw fit to go join terrorists.

The hell with them.

In the VN War Jane Fonda went to North Vietnam and had her picture taken next to a tank and NV soldiers. We shoulf nsvr expelled her, she could have lived in France or other places.

There is political dissent and opposition under 5the constitution. Giving aid and comfort to an enemy in time of war is treason.

I'll reitterate. What's your plan for the ISIS fighters who are turned away? Nobody wants them. If the plan is to keep them in a refugee camp indefinitely, then whose going to pay for their upkeep? If you don't have a plan for this they'll stay in Syria burdening the new government, who have a country to rebuild.

This is what happened to the Palestinians. There's a reason Palestinians have such a dysfunctional culture today. Having people locked up without jobs or hope for generations makes people very dangerous.

So what's your plan for them? Whose problem do you think they should become?

 

[Derec]

I'll reitterate. What's your plan for the ISIS fighters who are turned away? Nobody wants them. If the plan is to keep them in a refugee camp indefinitely,

I propose a creation of "Gitmo South" in Antarctica as a penal colony for ISIS fighters, brides and miscellaneous members.
Ok, maybe we can just expand Gitmo Classic a bit. Although I think the climate is way too nice for the bastards!

then whose going to pay for their upkeep? If you don't have a plan for this they'll stay in Syria burdening the new government, who have a country to rebuild.

A sort of international cost sharing. UK and Bangladesh should both pitch in for Gitmo South (women's wing) to take Begum for example.

This is what happened to the Palestinians. There's a reason Palestinians have such a dysfunctional culture today. Having people locked up without jobs or hope for generations makes people very dangerous.

My proposal would not mix genders. So they would be a self-limiting problem.

 

[repoman]

Oded Yinon

 

[steve_bank]

I believe it is against the law for any citizen over here to join a foreign military. I believe if an American joins the French Foreign Legion he has to give up citizenship.

Going to the Mideast to enact and support armed aggression against us is not moving to another country. We have taken in people frpm miserable conditions and helped them get a start here. Some saw fit to go join terrorists.

The hell with them.

In the VN War Jane Fonda went to North Vietnam and had her picture taken next to a tank and NV soldiers. We shoulf nsvr expelled her, she could have lived in France or other places.

There is political dissent and opposition under 5the constitution. Giving aid and comfort to an enemy in time of war is treason.

I'll reitterate. What's your plan for the ISIS fighters who are turned away? Nobody wants them. If the plan is to keep them in a refugee camp indefinitely, then whose going to pay for their upkeep? If you don't have a plan for this they'll stay in Syria burdening the new government, who have a country to rebuild.

This is what happened to the Palestinians. There's a reason Palestinians have such a dysfunctional culture today. Having people locked up without jobs or hope for generations makes people very dangerous.

So what's your plan for them? Whose problem do you think they should become?

Seriously, let them scrounge for food, water, and shelter like the rest of the refugees they created. Forgiveness only goes so far.

Leering them all hang in the wind sends a message for those contemplating terrorism. It does not pay.

Being allowed to come into and live in any of the western countries should be consider a privilege to be protected. I grew up with and went to school with immigrants mostly Italian and Eastern Europe. I am not anti immigrant.
Were letting people in who do not appreciate our values. The percentage may be small and I've seen a few you literally hate the USA but come here because it is better than where they were at. One guy liked to play anti American haye speech recoding's in public.

I am sure Denmark will be glad to take her and others in.

 

[Derec]

By the way, BBC found Begum's husband. When I first heard he was "Dutch" I though the media meant what they usually mean, some Pakistani or Arab or Afghan who was foolishly given Dutch citizenship (EU countries hand out citizenship to Muslims like candy on Halloween!). But no, this guy is an actual Dutchman, named Yago Riedijk. It's just that the little twerp converted to Islam. What an idiot! Now he wants to go back to Netherlands with his ISIS bride and child. No doubt to push Islamist agenda in Netherlands.
Dutch ISIS Fighter, Husband of Shamima Begum, Wants to Return Home With Family

Yago is facing only 6 years in Netherlands - way too little. Maybe it would be better for Kurds or Iraq to try him ...

Btw, I like that photo. Her sister obviously did not trust whomever she was holding it up for to pixelate the other face.

 

[Harry Bosch]

By the way, BBC found Begum's husband. When I first heard he was "Dutch" I though the media meant what they usually mean, some Pakistani or Arab or Afghan who was foolishly given Dutch citizenship (EU countries hand out citizenship to Muslims like candy on Halloween!). But no, this guy is an actual Dutchman, named Yago Riedijk. It's just that the little twerp converted to Islam. What an idiot! Now he wants to go back to Netherlands with his ISIS bride and child. No doubt to push Islamist agenda in Netherlands.
Dutch ISIS Fighter, Husband of Shamima Begum, Wants to Return Home With Family

Yago is facing only 6 years in Netherlands - way too little. Maybe it would be better for Kurds or Iraq to try him ...

Btw, I like that photo. Her sister obviously did not trust whomever she was holding it up for to pixelate the other face.

Wow, 6 years is shockingly low. I don't think that the Kurds or Yazidi's would approve.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I believe it is against the law for any citizen over here to join a foreign military. I believe if an American joins the French Foreign Legion he has to give up citizenship.

Going to the Mideast to enact and support armed aggression against us is not moving to another country. We have taken in people frpm miserable conditions and helped them get a start here. Some saw fit to go join terrorists.

The hell with them.

In the VN War Jane Fonda went to North Vietnam and had her picture taken next to a tank and NV soldiers. We shoulf nsvr expelled her, she could have lived in France or other places.

There is political dissent and opposition under 5the constitution. Giving aid and comfort to an enemy in time of war is treason.

I'll reitterate. What's your plan for the ISIS fighters who are turned away? Nobody wants them. If the plan is to keep them in a refugee camp indefinitely, then whose going to pay for their upkeep? If you don't have a plan for this they'll stay in Syria burdening the new government, who have a country to rebuild.

This is what happened to the Palestinians. There's a reason Palestinians have such a dysfunctional culture today. Having people locked up without jobs or hope for generations makes people very dangerous.

So what's your plan for them? Whose problem do you think they should become?

Seriously, let them scrounge for food, water, and shelter like the rest of the refugees they created. Forgiveness only goes so far.

Leering them all hang in the wind sends a message for those contemplating terrorism. It does not pay.

Being allowed to come into and live in any of the western countries should be consider a privilege to be protected. I grew up with and went to school with immigrants mostly Italian and Eastern Europe. I am not anti immigrant.
Were letting people in who do not appreciate our values. The percentage may be small and I've seen a few you literally hate the USA but come here because it is better than where they were at. One guy liked to play anti American haye speech recoding's in public.

I am sure Denmark will be glad to take her and others in.

I'm not saying pardon them or just let them in. All I'm asking is what your plan for them is? If your plan is to put them and their children in camps, not give them food and starve them to death, wouldn't it be more humane to just shoot them, including the children?

You have a very bizarre black and white way of thinking about this

 

[DBT]

Everyone deserves their day in court, treated according to the evidence, crime committed, the circumstances and whatever penalties that may apply.

 

[steve_bank]

In the news her father was a diplomat who gave up his diplomatic status just before she was born.

Hard to imagine it was not coincidence and that it was not intended to get her citizenship by birth.

 

[Gun Nut]

Yes, I think that this is wrong as it forces other countries to deal with British and American citizens.

This is a clearly false statement. No country is obligated to take these people.

The is no such place as nowhere. Every place is under the jurisdiction of a country. The only way for no country to accept her is for her to be killed, and even then that requires someone to take responsibility to kill her and dispose of her body.

The vast majority of the planet is covered by water under international law (no one country). So, if "nowhere" means "no country", then most places serve that purpose. Put them on a raft 50 miles off any coast and they are "no ones" problem.

 

[Derec]

The vast majority of the planet is covered by water under international law (no one country). So, if "nowhere" means "no country", then most places serve that purpose. Put them on a raft 50 miles off any coast and they are "no ones" problem.

Or how about a disused oil platform?

On a more serious note, it looks like Shamima Begum's newest child is dead. That means she lost her ace in the hole as far as reasons why UK should allow her back.
British ISIS bride Shamima Begum's newborn son has died in Syria
She really doesn't have a good track record caring for her own kids. She is batting 0 for 3. I sure hope she doesn't get pregnant again. Yago, wrap it up next time, please. If there is a next time, that is.

While it's Onion, this article makes a lot of sense. It's about Hoda Muthana, but I think it applies to Begum as well.
Sexist Media Keeps Only Referring To Woman As ‘Bride Of ISIS Soldier’

“Ms. Muthana is an accomplished ISIS member in her own right, having joined one of the top terrorist organizations in the world at the age of only 20,” said FAIR spokesperson Keith Finneran, explaining how terms like “ISIS bride” and “wife of ISIS soldier,” routinely used to refer to Muthana in news headlines, are derogatory in that they credit the woman’s hard-won contributions to the war on infidels to her husband. “To be identified simply by her role as a bride is disrespectful and does a great disservice to all she has achieved for the caliphate.

Indeed. These are not some innocent victims.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I have changed my mind on this. My new opinion is, fuck 'em

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-47286935

"Researchers found 18,852 came from the Middle East and North Africa, 7,252 from Eastern Europe, 5,965 from Central Asia, 5,904 from Western Europe, 1,010 from Eastern Asia, 1,063 from South-East Asia, 753 from the Americas, Australia, New Zealand, 447 from Southern Asia, and 244 from Sub-Saharan Africa."

40 000 foreign fighters travelled to Syria to fight for ISIS.

More than half came from other parts of middle-east or North Africa, ie places in not much better shape than Syria. Those will all be able to go home.

That leaves 20 000. We don't know how many are dead. But it says a majority are dead or in custody. Let's assume they're either dead or will all be hanged for war crimes. It's a safe bet.

That leaves 10 000.

For those who joined ISIS as teenagers, like Shamima Begum, I say instant pardon and bring them home. Teenagers do all kinds of dumb shit. I'm guessing that's half of the foreign fighters.

That leaves maybe 5 000. That might sound a lot, but in the big picture it's not. I say, fuck 'em. Let them drift around the outskirts of the world.

These are all people who knew before leaving that ISIS committed atrocities. We've all seen the same videos. They were promised to make up an elite in the new state. So they clearly felt other people's lives were worth sacrificing for them to live lives of luxury. Sorry not sorry.

I was earlier under the impression that we'd have to deal with millions of ex-fighters and their families. But it's so few people that it's not worth bothering about. Let them perish. It's a shame about what happens to their children, but this war has left at least 100 000 orphans in Syria. They can join that club. I see no reason to give the children of the fighters any privileges we're not also extending to the rest of the orphans, ie those orphaned because of their parents war crimes.

 

[Toni]

The vast majority of the planet is covered by water under international law (no one country). So, if "nowhere" means "no country", then most places serve that purpose. Put them on a raft 50 miles off any coast and they are "no ones" problem.

Or how about a disused oil platform?

On a more serious note, it looks like Shamima Begum's newest child is dead. That means she lost her ace in the hole as far as reasons why UK should allow her back.
British ISIS bride Shamima Begum's newborn son has died in Syria
She really doesn't have a good track record caring for her own kids. She is batting 0 for 3. I sure hope she doesn't get pregnant again. Yago, wrap it up next time, please. If there is a next time, that is.

While it's Onion, this article makes a lot of sense. It's about Hoda Muthana, but I think it applies to Begum as well.
Sexist Media Keeps Only Referring To Woman As ‘Bride Of ISIS Soldier’

“Ms. Muthana is an accomplished ISIS member in her own right, having joined one of the top terrorist organizations in the world at the age of only 20,” said FAIR spokesperson Keith Finneran, explaining how terms like “ISIS bride” and “wife of ISIS soldier,” routinely used to refer to Muthana in news headlines, are derogatory in that they credit the woman’s hard-won contributions to the war on infidels to her husband. “To be identified simply by her role as a bride is disrespectful and does a great disservice to all she has achieved for the caliphate.

Indeed. These are not some innocent victims.

Do you understand what The Onion is?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

While it's Onion, this article makes a lot of sense. It's about Hoda Muthana, but I think it applies to Begum as well.
Sexist Media Keeps Only Referring To Woman As ‘Bride Of ISIS Soldier’

Indeed. These are not some innocent victims.

 

[Harry Bosch]

On one hand, the people who made up the ISIS state really don't fit any other country. They are brutal religious wackos who with contempt for their neighbors and hatred in their heart. No country wants them back. I don't blame people for that. The ISIS people really don't want to be in open westernized countries either. But the problem is that it's not fair to the Kurds and other locals in the area to have these invaders in their country. I don't know what the solution is.

 

[J842P]

On one hand, the people who made up the ISIS state really don't fit any other country. They are brutal religious wackos who with contempt for their neighbors and hatred in their heart. No country wants them back. I don't blame people for that. The ISIS people really don't want to be in open westernized countries either. But the problem is that it's not fair to the Kurds and other locals in the area to have these invaders in their country. I don't know what the solution is.

Eh. I'm sure the Kurds and other locals can figure out how to deal with 20,000 or so ex-ISIS. That's really the least of their problems. If anyone cares about the Kurds then they would push the US to pressure Turkey to back off. Of course the Turks will resent that forever, but fuck the Turks.