What should happen to the ISIS Brides?

[Harry Bosch]

Should the ISIS Brides be allowed to return home? It seems to me that at least Hoda (the American) is at least contrite. Whereas Shamima seems to show no remorse. They loved ISIS when it occupied land and could brutalize civilians. I don't have much sympathy. I do feel bad for their children who didn't ask for this. As an aside, it's so Trump that he demands the world to collect their ISIS citizens, but he won't allow Hoda to return home!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...d-from-coming-home/ar-BBTRUQb?ocid=spartanntp

 

[Toni]

Should the ISIS Brides be allowed to return home? It seems to me that at least Hoda (the American) is at least contrite. Whereas Shamima seems to show no remorse. They loved ISIS when it occupied land and could brutalize civilians. I don't have much sympathy. I do feel bad for their children who didn't ask for this. As an aside, it's so Trump that he demands the world to collect their ISIS citizens, but he won't allow Hoda to return home!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...d-from-coming-home/ar-BBTRUQb?ocid=spartanntp

I think they were awfully young when they made the decision to leave their country to join ISIS. A lot of teenagers run away and join cults or just run away to be with the one they think loves them. It rarely works out, usually does a lot of harm to the kid who ran away and IMO, deserves to be forgiven. Joining ISIS is much more extreme, of course. But the brains of teenagers are still the brains of teenagers. The point that these ISIS brides (and male ISIS recruits) are groomed is well made. This is something I've been reading/hearing about for some years now. These young people were very far away from home and could not simply leave when they realized they had made a mistake. We are all naive if we believe otherwise and cruel if we pretend to believe otherwise.

After the Civil War, we did not inter all the Confederate soldiers but instead sent them back to their families. I am not sure I see why these young women deserve less compassion.


How many of us wish to be judged forever by the stupidest thing we did when we were 15?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Should the ISIS Brides be allowed to return home? It seems to me that at least Hoda (the American) is at least contrite. Whereas Shamima seems to show no remorse. They loved ISIS when it occupied land and could brutalize civilians. I don't have much sympathy. I do feel bad for their children who didn't ask for this. As an aside, it's so Trump that he demands the world to collect their ISIS citizens, but he won't allow Hoda to return home!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...d-from-coming-home/ar-BBTRUQb?ocid=spartanntp

I think they were awfully young when they made the decision to leave their country to join ISIS. A lot of teenagers run away and join cults or just run away to be with the one they think loves them. It rarely works out, usually does a lot of harm to the kid who ran away and IMO, deserves to be forgiven. Joining ISIS is much more extreme, of course. But the brains of teenagers are still the brains of teenagers. The point that these ISIS brides (and male ISIS recruits) are groomed is well made. This is something I've been reading/hearing about for some years now. These young people were very far away from home and could not simply leave when they realized they had made a mistake. We are all naive if we believe otherwise and cruel if we pretend to believe otherwise.

After the Civil War, we did not inter all the Confederate soldiers but instead sent them back to their families. I am not sure I see why these young women deserve less compassion.

How many of us wish to be judged forever by the stupidest thing we did when we were 15?

There is dumb, and then there is over the top, I can't believe anyone fell for that type of dumb.

These teens were convinced online by professional liars (often women) to go over to Syria and donate their vaginas to the cause of ISIS. In general, it sounds like these women weren't soldiers, merely pleasure staging areas.

It really is a tough decision. I don't think you can just bring them back... not without mandatory rehab and psychological counseling. What they did was incredibly off the charts stupid and they have likely suffered a good deal of mental trauma if they are honest about knowing they fucked up.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I very much disagree with the calls to strip them of their citizenship or not let them return to their home countries. If you want to say that they provided material support to a terrorist organization, that's fine. The police can wait for them at the airport and arrest them as soon as they get off the plane and deal with them like any other criminal while their kids are then raised by someone who's not quite so much of an insane idiot.

 

[Toni]

Should the ISIS Brides be allowed to return home? It seems to me that at least Hoda (the American) is at least contrite. Whereas Shamima seems to show no remorse. They loved ISIS when it occupied land and could brutalize civilians. I don't have much sympathy. I do feel bad for their children who didn't ask for this. As an aside, it's so Trump that he demands the world to collect their ISIS citizens, but he won't allow Hoda to return home!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...d-from-coming-home/ar-BBTRUQb?ocid=spartanntp

I think they were awfully young when they made the decision to leave their country to join ISIS. A lot of teenagers run away and join cults or just run away to be with the one they think loves them. It rarely works out, usually does a lot of harm to the kid who ran away and IMO, deserves to be forgiven. Joining ISIS is much more extreme, of course. But the brains of teenagers are still the brains of teenagers. The point that these ISIS brides (and male ISIS recruits) are groomed is well made. This is something I've been reading/hearing about for some years now. These young people were very far away from home and could not simply leave when they realized they had made a mistake. We are all naive if we believe otherwise and cruel if we pretend to believe otherwise.

After the Civil War, we did not inter all the Confederate soldiers but instead sent them back to their families. I am not sure I see why these young women deserve less compassion.

How many of us wish to be judged forever by the stupidest thing we did when we were 15?

There is dumb, and then there is over the top, I can't believe anyone fell for that type of dumb.

These teens were convinced online by professional liars (often women) to go over to Syria and donate their vaginas to the cause of ISIS. In general, it sounds like these women weren't soldiers, merely pleasure staging areas.

It really is a tough decision. I don't think you can just bring them back... not without mandatory rehab and psychological counseling. What they did was incredibly off the charts stupid and they have likely suffered a good deal of mental trauma if they are honest about knowing they fucked up.

For sure they need help/counseling. From what I understand from these and other cases of young people running off to join ISIS, they are preyed upon before they run away, their loneliness and disaffected state as well as their youth and even youthful idealism are so thoroughly exploited. It is not really different than those who lure teens away from home in order to prostitute them. As you mentioned, they are recruited by professional liars who are very adept at manipulation.

 

[southernhybrid]

I think the ones who are an American citizens should be brought home. Unfortunately, the Trump administration is trying to claim that one of the younger girls isn't a citizen because her father was a diplomat and the children of diplomats don't automatically have birth right citizenship. But, the family claims that the girl was born a month after her father gave up his diplomatic position, and that would make her a citizen.

She is remorseful and I think she knows that if she returns she would be charged with a crime and would have to be tried.

I don't have a handy link but I've read quite a bit about these women and not all of these women were teens when they joined ISIS. One was the mother of three adult children when she joined. A person can be brainwashed at any age, although I would think that younger people are easier targets.

Let them come home and stand trial for what they did. To me, that makes the most sense.

 

[jladam]

8 C.F.R. 1182(a)(3)(B) is pretty clear on this:

(B) Terrorist activities
(i) In general
Any alien who-
(I) has engaged in a terrorist activity;
(II) a consular officer, the Attorney General, or the Secretary of Homeland Security knows, or has reasonable ground to believe, is engaged in or is likely to engage after entry in any terrorist activity (as defined in clause (iv));
(III) has, under circumstances indicating an intention to cause death or serious bodily harm, incited terrorist activity;
(IV) is a representative (as defined in clause (v)) of-
(aa) a terrorist organization (as defined in clause (vi)); or
(bb) a political, social, or other group that endorses or espouses terrorist activity;
(V) is a member of a terrorist organization described in subclause (I) or (II) of clause (vi);
(VI) is a member of a terrorist organization described in clause (vi)(III), unless the alien can demonstrate by clear and convincing evidence that the alien did not know, and should not reasonably have known, that the organization was a terrorist organization;
(VII) endorses or espouses terrorist activity or persuades others to endorse or espouse terrorist activity or support a terrorist organization;
(VIII) has received military-type training (as defined in section 2339D(c)(1) of title 18) from or on behalf of any organization that, at the time the training was received, was a terrorist organization (as defined in clause (vi)); or
(IX) is the spouse or child of an alien who is inadmissible under this subparagraph, if the activity causing the alien to be found inadmissible occurred within the last 5 years, is inadmissible. An alien who is an officer, official, representative, or spokesman of the Palestine Liberation Organization is considered, for purposes of this chapter, to be engaged in a terrorist activity.

(ii) Exception
Subclause (IX) of clause (i) does not apply to a spouse or child-
(I) who did not know or should not reasonably have known of the activity causing the alien to be found inadmissible under this section; or
(II) whom the consular officer or Attorney General has reasonable grounds to believe has renounced the activity causing the alien to be found inadmissible under this section.

There is an exception for a spouse or child who is also inadmissible. However, one problem with her case is that she wasn't a spouse when she first joined up with ISIS. Anyway, I seriously doubt that they apply the exception to her case, nor do I think they should. Severe stupidity should still have its consequences.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I'm not up to speed on this.

Are these including kids who were born in the USA and grew up there and then went over to ISIS? And now they want to strip their citizenship rather than make them stand trial back home? Do I have that right?

If so, what is the basis for that? You can just strip citizenship from people? They become a citizen of nowhere? That seems rather nuts to me. They are criminals and terrorists maybe, but they are still citizens.

 

[Toni]

8 C.F.R. 1182(a)(3)(B) is pretty clear on this:

(B) Terrorist activities
(i) In general
Any alien who-
(I) has engaged in a terrorist activity;
(II) a consular officer, the Attorney General, or the Secretary of Homeland Security knows, or has reasonable ground to believe, is engaged in or is likely to engage after entry in any terrorist activity (as defined in clause (iv));
(III) has, under circumstances indicating an intention to cause death or serious bodily harm, incited terrorist activity;
(IV) is a representative (as defined in clause (v)) of-
(aa) a terrorist organization (as defined in clause (vi)); or
(bb) a political, social, or other group that endorses or espouses terrorist activity;
(V) is a member of a terrorist organization described in subclause (I) or (II) of clause (vi);
(VI) is a member of a terrorist organization described in clause (vi)(III), unless the alien can demonstrate by clear and convincing evidence that the alien did not know, and should not reasonably have known, that the organization was a terrorist organization;
(VII) endorses or espouses terrorist activity or persuades others to endorse or espouse terrorist activity or support a terrorist organization;
(VIII) has received military-type training (as defined in section 2339D(c)(1) of title 18) from or on behalf of any organization that, at the time the training was received, was a terrorist organization (as defined in clause (vi)); or
(IX) is the spouse or child of an alien who is inadmissible under this subparagraph, if the activity causing the alien to be found inadmissible occurred within the last 5 years, is inadmissible. An alien who is an officer, official, representative, or spokesman of the Palestine Liberation Organization is considered, for purposes of this chapter, to be engaged in a terrorist activity.

(ii) Exception
Subclause (IX) of clause (i) does not apply to a spouse or child-
(I) who did not know or should not reasonably have known of the activity causing the alien to be found inadmissible under this section; or
(II) whom the consular officer or Attorney General has reasonable grounds to believe has renounced the activity causing the alien to be found inadmissible under this section.

There is an exception for a spouse or child who is also inadmissible. However, one problem with her case is that she wasn't a spouse when she first joined up with ISIS. Anyway, I seriously doubt that they apply the exception to her case, nor do I think they should. Severe stupidity should still have its consequences.

These are not aliens but citizens.

 

[dismal]

I'm not up to speed on this.

Are these including kids who were born in the USA and grew up there and then went over to ISIS? And now they want to strip their citizenship rather than make them stand trial back home? Do I have that right?

If so, what is the basis for that? You can just strip citizenship from people? They become a citizen of nowhere? That seems rather nuts to me. They are criminals and terrorists maybe, but they are still citizens.

It seems a naturalized citizen can have their citizenship stripped for a few reasons one of which is cavorting with terrorists but a birth right citizen can not.

A birth right citizen can only lose their citizenship by renouncing it.

 

[repoman]

I don't think it is fair for a diplomat to be able to quit his job and stay in the US with his pregnant wife to have an anchor baby. Get on a plane touch land in your home country and then quit, fucker.

 

[jladam]

8 C.F.R. 1182(a)(3)(B) is pretty clear on this:

(B) Terrorist activities
(i) In general
Any alien who-
(I) has engaged in a terrorist activity;
(II) a consular officer, the Attorney General, or the Secretary of Homeland Security knows, or has reasonable ground to believe, is engaged in or is likely to engage after entry in any terrorist activity (as defined in clause (iv));
(III) has, under circumstances indicating an intention to cause death or serious bodily harm, incited terrorist activity;
(IV) is a representative (as defined in clause (v)) of-
(aa) a terrorist organization (as defined in clause (vi)); or
(bb) a political, social, or other group that endorses or espouses terrorist activity;
(V) is a member of a terrorist organization described in subclause (I) or (II) of clause (vi);
(VI) is a member of a terrorist organization described in clause (vi)(III), unless the alien can demonstrate by clear and convincing evidence that the alien did not know, and should not reasonably have known, that the organization was a terrorist organization;
(VII) endorses or espouses terrorist activity or persuades others to endorse or espouse terrorist activity or support a terrorist organization;
(VIII) has received military-type training (as defined in section 2339D(c)(1) of title 18) from or on behalf of any organization that, at the time the training was received, was a terrorist organization (as defined in clause (vi)); or
(IX) is the spouse or child of an alien who is inadmissible under this subparagraph, if the activity causing the alien to be found inadmissible occurred within the last 5 years, is inadmissible. An alien who is an officer, official, representative, or spokesman of the Palestine Liberation Organization is considered, for purposes of this chapter, to be engaged in a terrorist activity.

(ii) Exception
Subclause (IX) of clause (i) does not apply to a spouse or child-
(I) who did not know or should not reasonably have known of the activity causing the alien to be found inadmissible under this section; or
(II) whom the consular officer or Attorney General has reasonable grounds to believe has renounced the activity causing the alien to be found inadmissible under this section.

There is an exception for a spouse or child who is also inadmissible. However, one problem with her case is that she wasn't a spouse when she first joined up with ISIS. Anyway, I seriously doubt that they apply the exception to her case, nor do I think they should. Severe stupidity should still have its consequences.

These are not aliens but citizens.

According to other news reports that I've read some of them, at least Hoda, are not.

 

[jladam]

I don't think it is fair for a diplomat to be able to quit his job and stay in the US with his pregnant wife to have an anchor baby. Get on a plane touch land in your home country and then quit, fucker.

Under law a diplomat can stay if (1) he or she can legally change their visa status to a different visa category AND (2) he or she fully gives up their diplomatic immunity in writing and under oath.

 

[Toni]

These are not aliens but citizens.

According to other news reports that I've read some of them, at least Hoda, are not.

That’s perhaps not actually true. She was born in the US after her father left his diplomatic post. Children born in the US to diplomats are not citizens. However she was born AFTER her father was a diplomat. It’s an unusual case. Trump’s administration is claiming that she is not a citizen. I’m not sure that is actually true.

 

[jladam]

I'm not up to speed on this.

Are these including kids who were born in the USA and grew up there and then went over to ISIS? And now they want to strip their citizenship rather than make them stand trial back home? Do I have that right?

If so, what is the basis for that? You can just strip citizenship from people? They become a citizen of nowhere? That seems rather nuts to me. They are criminals and terrorists maybe, but they are still citizens.

It seems a naturalized citizen can have their citizenship stripped for a few reasons one of which is cavorting with terrorists but a birth right citizen can not.

A birth right citizen can only lose their citizenship by renouncing it.

Under 8 U.S.C. 1481 it doesn't matter whether a person is a U.S. citizen by birth or naturalization, they can lose their citizenship by joining any armed force that is engaged in hostilities against the U.S. Here's the appropriate section of law:

http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid%3AUSC-prelim-title8-section1481&num=0&edition=prelim

 

[repoman]

These are not aliens but citizens.

According to other news reports that I've read some of them, at least Hoda, are not.

That’s perhaps not actually true. She was born in the US after her father left his diplomatic post. Children born in the US to diplomats are not citizens. However she was born AFTER her father was a diplomat. It’s an unusual case. Trump’s administration is claiming that she is not a citizen. I’m not sure that is actually true.

Did her father become a diplomat again shortly after?

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not up to speed on this.

Are these including kids who were born in the USA and grew up there and then went over to ISIS? And now they want to strip their citizenship rather than make them stand trial back home? Do I have that right?

If so, what is the basis for that? You can just strip citizenship from people? They become a citizen of nowhere? That seems rather nuts to me. They are criminals and terrorists maybe, but they are still citizens.

It seems a naturalized citizen can have their citizenship stripped for a few reasons one of which is cavorting with terrorists but a birth right citizen can not.

A birth right citizen can only lose their citizenship by renouncing it.

Under 8 U.S.C. 1481 it doesn't matter whether a person is a U.S. citizen by birth or naturalization, they can lose their citizenship by joining any armed force that is engaged in hostilities against the U.S. Here's the appropriate section of law:

http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid%3AUSC-prelim-title8-section1481&num=0&edition=prelim

Wonder if that will be used against US militias in the future?

 

[dismal]

I'm not up to speed on this.

Are these including kids who were born in the USA and grew up there and then went over to ISIS? And now they want to strip their citizenship rather than make them stand trial back home? Do I have that right?

If so, what is the basis for that? You can just strip citizenship from people? They become a citizen of nowhere? That seems rather nuts to me. They are criminals and terrorists maybe, but they are still citizens.

It seems a naturalized citizen can have their citizenship stripped for a few reasons one of which is cavorting with terrorists but a birth right citizen can not.

A birth right citizen can only lose their citizenship by renouncing it.

Under 8 U.S.C. 1481 it doesn't matter whether a person is a U.S. citizen by birth or naturalization, they can lose their citizenship by joining any armed force that is engaged in hostilities against the U.S. Here's the appropriate section of law:

http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid%3AUSC-prelim-title8-section1481&num=0&edition=prelim

Hmm, maybe the article I read was wrong. Also, maybe this has not been tested in court. A congressional statute can't trump the Constitution if the two are in conflict.

 

[jladam]

These are not aliens but citizens.

According to other news reports that I've read some of them, at least Hoda, are not.

That’s perhaps not actually true. She was born in the US after her father left his diplomatic post. Children born in the US to diplomats are not citizens. However she was born AFTER her father was a diplomat. It’s an unusual case. Trump’s administration is claiming that she is not a citizen. I’m not sure that is actually true.

Correct. It would be an unusual case. It would depend upon how he left his post. If his country simply reassigned him to a non-diplomatic post, but one in which he would still be able to maintain his diplomatic immunity then he could have still been recognized as diplomat. In many cases, the U.S. recognizes "honorary diplomats" who hold at least some degree diplomatic immunity. We would probably have to go case law to decide something like that.

- - - Updated - - -

Under 8 U.S.C. 1481 it doesn't matter whether a person is a U.S. citizen by birth or naturalization, they can lose their citizenship by joining any armed force that is engaged in hostilities against the U.S. Here's the appropriate section of law:

http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid%3AUSC-prelim-title8-section1481&num=0&edition=prelim

Hmm, maybe the article I read was wrong. Also, maybe this has not been tested in court. A congressional statute can't trump the Constitution if the two are in conflict.

They're not in conflict. Article I of the Constitution gives Congress the full power to enact laws of citizenship and nationality.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

But we do have precedent on saying "that person is no longer a citizen".  Anwar al-Awlaki and, worse,  Abdulrahman al-Awlaki

 

[ronburgundy]

Once again Trump and his band of criminals are proudly violating US law and getting cheers from the authoritarians who ironically pretend they are patriots.

She is a citizen and should return, and then should go to prison. And it isn't merely following the law that is important, but it is our obligation to take responsibility for our own citizens, especially when they criminals, and not foist them onto other nations.