What should Israel do?

[Loren Pechtel]

And they're setting such a great example to the Muslim world, aren't they?

The rain of rockets is unbearable.

Actually, it is EXTREMELY bearable. The Iron Dome defense system has reduced civilian Israeli casualties to a statistical blip, and Hamas withheld its rocket attacks throughout the entirety of 2013.

69 rounds were sent towards Israel. I don't think 69 equals zero.

In this case it was ISRAEL, not Hamas, that provoked the current hostilities, first with the crackdown on Hamas activists in the West Bank (where militant attacks are already relatively rare), in clear violation of Palestinian sovereignty, and this accompanied by raids and air strikes in Gaza just hours BEFORE the resumption of rocket fire.

Are you forgetting the kidnap and murder of those teens?

Israel is NOT in an existential battle. They're just assholes.

It doesn't matter if it's an existential battle or not. There is no reason they should simply accept being shot at.

If I were POTUS I would give Israel 72 hours to evacuate its west bank settlements, end the blockade on Gaza and withdrawal to its own borders; failure to do so would result in the PERMANENT termination of all military aid to Israel, including but not limited to the withdrawal of funding and/or support for the Iron Dome system. I'm sure Congress would have a huge problem with this, in which case legislative attempts to aid Israel would be met with my signing statement that all military aid to Israel MUST be disbursed in the form of crispy pre-cooked bacon (at least this way we know the Palestinians won't use it either).

And when that didn't bring peace would you realize how wrong you were?

 

[angelo]

I repeat. The death toll in Gaza of children and everyone else is insignificant when thousands upon thousands have been and are been killed in Iraq and Iran alone. Why isn't the media in a frenzy about that?

You seem to think human rights is a counting game. The answer to your question is that people like you keep apologizing for slaughter of people. You are arguing for insensitivity to human suffering and murder on the basis of numbers killed...and the religion of those killed. The problem is obviously a lot more complex than merely marking up numbers on a scorecard. All these wars are horrors without a hint of interest in justice and HUMAN RIGHTS. It appears to me, you are merely a closet racist...and not even very closeted.

Here we have a case of murder of children and women and old people and people who are prisoners in Gaza, trapped and unable to leave and you change the subject. You say this murder is okay as long as the numbers are small. Well, as of yesterday the death toll in Gaza was over 1100...mostly civilians, and a large contingent of women and children in that death count. This incursion is simply inhumane and criminal in its character and you just point and say.."Look elsewhere."
Why can't we look at murder and call it what it is, Angelo?

We are not apologizing for these women and kids. They had done NOTHING that needs to be apologized for. You are supporting a racist killing field. It is you who needs to apologize for your insensitivity to human suffering. Murdering women and children is NEVER INSIGNIFICANT.

It may be because you are overlooking the fact that is was hamas who started this conflict. What you sow so you shall reap. What did the hamas terrorist leadership think would happen by kidnapping and murdering the three unarmed teenagers? What did they think Israel would do by them firing unending numbers of rocket into Israel? I'm also reading reports from very credible reporters from Australia and the States that hamas militants are trying censor news reports coming out of Gaza if they are reporting the truth. That many of the killed are been counted more than once. There is a lot more to this than meets the eye.

 

[Philos]

Folks,

There is nothing the Israelis can do. They will lose in the long term because the demographics are against them.

Alex.

 

[font]

Folks,

There is nothing the Israelis can do. They will lose in the long term because the demographics are against them.

Alex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Birth_rate

 

[angelo]

A tiny democracy in a sea of instability and chaos.

 

[untermensche]

A tiny democracy in a sea of instability and chaos.

It isn't much of a democracy.

It's a system that favors one religion over another.

The US understood the problems with that kind of system hundreds of years ago. You start favoring one religion over another and before you know it you have an apartheid state. You have modern Israel.

 

[angelo]

Still this Israeli bullshit persists. FFS 20% of the Israeli pop consist of Arabs. Ask them if they have any restrictions at all.

 

[untermensche]

Still this Israeli bullshit persists. FFS 20% of the Israeli pop consist of Arabs. Ask them if they have any restrictions at all.

If only Israel didn't have millions in their carefully constructed apartheid ghettos you might have a point.

 

[maxparrish]

Even left-wing celebrity Bill Maher gets it: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/19/bill-maher-blames-hamas-gaza-violence-do-you-reall/

 

[Sarpedon]

Still this Israeli bullshit persists. FFS 20% of the Israeli pop consist of Arabs. Ask them if they have any restrictions at all.

Why bother? if we do, you'll just accuse them of being anti-Semitic.

You do know that the number 2 man in the Netenyahu regime has repeatedly introduced legislation to strip Israeli Arabs of their citizenship, don't you?

 

[Shadowy Man]

Even left-wing celebrity Bill Maher gets it: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/19/bill-maher-blames-hamas-gaza-violence-do-you-reall/

“Dealing w/ Hamas is like dealing w/ a crazy woman who’s trying to kill u - u can only hold her wrists so long before you have to slap her.”

What if the reason she's trying to kill you is that you are slapping her around all the time?

If a real solution is being sought, then we need to get past the whole "but they started it!" kind of schoolground logic going on. Who are willing to be the bigger people?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

“Dealing w/ Hamas is like dealing w/ a crazy woman who’s trying to kill u - u can only hold her wrists so long before you have to slap her.”

What if the reason she's trying to kill you is that you are slapping her around all the time?

If a real solution is being sought, then we need to get past the whole "but they started it!" kind of schoolground logic going on. Who are willing to be the bigger people?

We've seen what happens. If Hamas behaves we get peace. If Israel behaves we don't get peace.

 

[Arctish]

We've seen what happens. If Hamas behaves we get peace. If Israel behaves we don't get peace.

Years ago, on a previous incarnation of this board, I read a post that illustrated just how much Zionist apologetics resembles the language of abusers. As I recall, the post was several paragraphs long and included links to articles on domestic violence and psychology papers. It cited specific behaviors such as blame-shifting, self-aggrandizement and narcissism, isolating victims, unrealistic demands which, if unmet, were used to justify further violence, etc., and cited examples of Zionist behavior and speech that paralleled it.

You keep proving over and over again why the cycle of violence never ends. Abusers don't stop abusing their victims no matter how hard the victims try to please them. They always see themselves as blameless, no matter how much they did to escalate the situation. They always see their own actions as justified no matter how brutal, but they will never admit their victim is justified in responding in kind. And they just keep going until they're stopped, either by their victims learning how to defend themselves, getting outside help, or when the victims finally kill their abusers.

Why do you never ask Israel to behave itself, get it's settlers back inside the 1967 borders, and let the world send Gazans the food they need? You know those assholes in Hebron and their like are throwing stones at schoolchildren. You know they are shooting at Palestinian property. You know they are destroying the livelihood of Palestinian farmers. Why don't you demand they behave, and stop stirring up trouble?

Israel made this bed when it chose to pursue ethnic cleansing and oppression in the name of Zionism. I sincerely hope it doesn't become a Burning Bed. No one wins when one side thinks their only option is killing the other.

 

[untermensche]

Even left-wing celebrity Bill Maher gets it: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/19/bill-maher-blames-hamas-gaza-violence-do-you-reall/

He isn't left wing on anything except a few social issues.

He is ignorant and his opinions emanate from ignorance.

His entire point is: Israel has the right to kill because rockets were fired.

He doesn't know when or where the rockets were fired however. And he completely ignores all the history that has led us to a very weak practically defenseless people firing rockets in desperation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You keep proving over and over again why the cycle of violence never ends. Abusers don't stop abusing their victims no matter how hard the victims try to please them. They always see themselves as blameless, no matter how much they did to escalate the situation. They always see their own actions as justified no matter how brutal, but they will never admit their victim is justified in responding in kind. And they just keep going until they're stopped, either by their victims learning how to defend themselves, getting outside help, or when the victims finally kill their abusers.

You're simply taking as a given that Israel is causing what Hamas does.

It was Hamas that kidnapped/murdered those teens.
It was Hamas that started throwing rockets.

Why do you never ask Israel to behave itself, get it's settlers back inside the 1967 borders, and let the world send Gazans the food they need? You know those assholes in Hebron and their like are throwing stones at schoolchildren. You know they are shooting at Palestinian property. You know they are destroying the livelihood of Palestinian farmers. Why don't you demand they behave, and stop stirring up trouble?

67 borders--in other words, give a major concession for nothing in return? This would certainly hurt Israel's position as it would be seen as a sign of weakness and thus a reason to step up the attacks.

Letting food in--the only ones keeping it out are Hamas. They perfectly well know Israel closes the crossings when they attack the crossings. If they want the food coming in they need to not shoot at the crossings. Israel is under no obligation to put it's people at risk to feed it's enemy. Almost all shortages in Gaza are Hamas-caused anyway. It's not that the stuff isn't allowed in, it's that Hamas doesn't want to pay for it.

 

[Arctish]

You're simply taking as a given that Israel is causing what Hamas does.

It was Hamas that kidnapped/murdered those teens.
It was Hamas that started throwing rockets.

Why do you never ask Israel to behave itself, get it's settlers back inside the 1967 borders, and let the world send Gazans the food they need? You know those assholes in Hebron and their like are throwing stones at schoolchildren. You know they are shooting at Palestinian property. You know they are destroying the livelihood of Palestinian farmers. Why don't you demand they behave, and stop stirring up trouble?

67 borders--in other words, give a major concession for nothing in return? This would certainly hurt Israel's position as it would be seen as a sign of weakness and thus a reason to step up the attacks.

Letting food in--the only ones keeping it out are Hamas. They perfectly well know Israel closes the crossings when they attack the crossings. If they want the food coming in they need to not shoot at the crossings. Israel is under no obligation to put it's people at risk to feed it's enemy. Almost all shortages in Gaza are Hamas-caused anyway. It's not that the stuff isn't allowed in, it's that Hamas doesn't want to pay for it.

More proof of my point.

The beatings will continue until the Palestinians are utterly compliant, after which they will only happen sporadically to keep the Palestinians in line. Shipments of food to Gaza will depend on abject submission to the will of Israel. And when the world notices the starved, beaten captives in Israel's basement, Israel will say it had to be strict because otherwise the Palestinians wouldn't have done what Israel told them to do, and that would have been wrong because Israel is good and the captives are bad.

 

[angelo]

Some here think that Israel is dealing with a moderate outfit and all they have to do is lay down their arms and all can live in a harmonious state. Nothing could be further from the truth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant

 

[Arctish]

Some here think that Israel is dealing with a moderate outfit and all they have to do is lay down their arms and all can live in a harmonious state. Nothing could be further from the truth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant

I have never seen anyone here make the argument that all Israel has to do is lay down it's arms and all can live in a harmonious state. Everyone I know who hasn't written off the peace process entirely thinks it's going to be a long hard slog against the forces of extremism, vengeance, greed, and bigotry to get to a just and fair resolution.

There's no Peace Fairy to wave her magic wand and make all the hatred go away. Peace requires work, and a lot of it.

 

[angelo]

There can never be a "just and fair resolution" as Israel is dealing with a terrorist outfit who is sworn on it's destruction from as early the 7th century.

 

[Jigar]

Its sad to see the women and children suffer in palestine! ....but i find it difficult to criticize Israel given the History of Muslims across the world.. Whenever they are in power, they have abused Non-Muslim's .. to date they do it in Kashmir.. usurping Buddhist Lands in Ladakh as well!

Compare India with Israel.. After 1000 yrs of Monstrous Muslim rule.. even to date, we see terror and threats of violence... the entire underworld is Muslim..most illegal and violent crimes are committed by Muslims! 80% Hindu India still doesnt hate or abuse Muslims..except for stray incidents.. and Muslims have grown and Flourished across India.. finding no barriers in Films or elsewhere.. they practise their faith freely and are rarely victimized for the fairly recent genocides and expulsion of the Kashmiri Hindu Pandits from Kashmir!,

Contrast this with Pakistan or bangladesh or any Muslim nation... A Hindu or christian or jew can neither practise his faith, and almost NEVER grow in numbers.. and r treated like scum.. so if Israel softened down.. i have no doubts it will fare worse.. i just hope no GOOD Human dies in Israel or Palestine.. the rest i pray find a quick dignified death!