What should Israel do?

[untermensche]

Why do we in the west put so much focus on this conflict? Why don't we just pull all aid to both sides and just let them deal with each other. Why make this our problem?

You answer your own question, at least in terms of the US.

We follow because it is happening because of our gifts. We are accomplices.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The problem is they will use that freedom to increase the violence level, not to make peace. Israel would accept a peaceful Palestinian state--but they perfectly well know that's about as likely as finding bigfoot wandering around.

So those poor Palestinians who are nothing but victims of Hamas cannot possibly make peace?

No. There's too much Islamist money. Somebody will take it. If by some miracle 90% of the Palestinians did actually want peace (in practice it's a minority) the war would continue.

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The problem is they will use that freedom to increase the violence level, not to make peace. Israel would accept a peaceful Palestinian state--but they perfectly well know that's about as likely as finding bigfoot wandering around.

Ok, so people only get freedom if you approve of their religion, culture, race, or similar characteristics. Now we know where you stand.

The problem is the Islamist money driving the war. So long as it continues to pour in the war will continue. The Palestinians are pawns in this mess.

 

[untermensche]

So those poor Palestinians who are nothing but victims of Hamas cannot possibly make peace?

No. There's too much Islamist money. Somebody will take it. If by some miracle 90% of the Palestinians did actually want peace (in practice it's a minority) the war would continue.

It's not that there is too much external money.

It is because of the oppression there is so little internal money.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No. There's too much Islamist money. Somebody will take it. If by some miracle 90% of the Palestinians did actually want peace (in practice it's a minority) the war would continue.

It's not that there is too much external money.

It is because of the oppression there is so little internal money.

Substantial terrorist movements are always the result of external money.

 

[arkirk]

It's not that there is too much external money.

It is because of the oppression there is so little internal money.

Substantial terrorist movements are always the result of external money.

You have absolutely no way of knowing these things you say. You tell us of the intentions of people you do not even know in any sense whatever. You speak with authority that under no condition the Palestinians will not quit attacking Israel...as if they actually were capable of attacking Israel. If they were capable of the things you say, there would not be an Israel murdering their people in Gaza. But you casually and authoritatively inform us..."The war will continue." I say, Not if there is anything I can do to help it end." I am sure there are millions of people in the world who feel as I do. Why do you continually try to dictate to us millions who want to see peace there..."The war will continue." This is not guaranteed. You may just be disappointed. I certainly hope so.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Substantial terrorist movements are always the result of external money.

You have absolutely no way of knowing these things you say. You tell us of the intentions of people you do not even know in any sense whatever. You speak with authority that under no condition the Palestinians will not quit attacking Israel...as if they actually were capable of attacking Israel. If they were capable of the things you say, there would not be an Israel murdering their people in Gaza. But you casually and authoritatively inform us..."The war will continue." I say, Not if there is anything I can do to help it end." I am sure there are millions of people in the world who feel as I do. Why do you continually try to dictate to us millions who want to see peace there..."The war will continue." This is not guaranteed. You may just be disappointed. I certainly hope so.

Where is there a substantial terrorist movement without outside funding? Take any terrorist movement, see what Google says about where the money is coming from.

(Note: In a few cases it's money obtained from some resource the terrorists control rather than a sponsor. For example, FARC.)

 

[arkirk]

You have absolutely no way of knowing these things you say. You tell us of the intentions of people you do not even know in any sense whatever. You speak with authority that under no condition the Palestinians will not quit attacking Israel...as if they actually were capable of attacking Israel. If they were capable of the things you say, there would not be an Israel murdering their people in Gaza. But you casually and authoritatively inform us..."The war will continue." I say, Not if there is anything I can do to help it end." I am sure there are millions of people in the world who feel as I do. Why do you continually try to dictate to us millions who want to see peace there..."The war will continue." This is not guaranteed. You may just be disappointed. I certainly hope so.

Where is there a substantial terrorist movement without outside funding? Take any terrorist movement, see what Google says about where the money is coming from.

(Note: In a few cases it's money obtained from some resource the terrorists control rather than a sponsor. For example, FARC.)

Money comes from wherever people can get it. I am referring to your attempt to lock us in perpetual support of IDF mass murders in Gaza. You have no idea what goes through the mind of the average Gazan or even the minds of HAMAS members or their leaders. You have no special knowledge that allows you to assume in our behalf that "The war will continue." You focus only on war and the need for it. Why is it that way? You ignored the part of my post that asked the real questions regarding this issue in your quotation.

Have you ever known a Palestinian? Have you ever worked with a Palestinian? I have. They have brains just like us. They don't automatically deserve to be ground into the dust under IDF bombs. They don't think the way you say they think. They are NOT walking bundles of evil intentions and don't deserve your racist characterizations.

 

[untermensche]

It's not that there is too much external money.

It is because of the oppression there is so little internal money.

Substantial terrorist movements are always the result of external money.

If you define the resistance to oppression by people suffering from externally imposed poverty as terrorism then you are right.

You oppress people, you ensure that they exist in extreme poverty.

Then you label the only weapons available to the extremely poor as terrorism.

The only thing that isn't terrorism is the weapons and easy prerogatives of the very rich.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Where is there a substantial terrorist movement without outside funding? Take any terrorist movement, see what Google says about where the money is coming from.

(Note: In a few cases it's money obtained from some resource the terrorists control rather than a sponsor. For example, FARC.)

Money comes from wherever people can get it. I am referring to your attempt to lock us in perpetual support of IDF mass murders in Gaza. You have no idea what goes through the mind of the average Gazan or even the minds of HAMAS members or their leaders. You have no special knowledge that allows you to assume in our behalf that "The war will continue." You focus only on war and the need for it. Why is it that way? You ignored the part of my post that asked the real questions regarding this issue in your quotation.

Have you ever known a Palestinian? Have you ever worked with a Palestinian? I have. They have brains just like us. They don't automatically deserve to be ground into the dust under IDF bombs. They don't think the way you say they think. They are NOT walking bundles of evil intentions and don't deserve your racist characterizations.

It doesn't matter what's going through their minds. So long as the Islamist money pours in and Israel exists the war will continue. If the current combatants make peace the money will just move to new combatants. (We've already seen this happen with the shift from Fatah to Hamas. Fatah moved too much towards peace, the Islamist money moved on.)

- - - Updated - - -

Substantial terrorist movements are always the result of external money.

If you define the resistance to oppression by people suffering from externally imposed poverty as terrorism then you are right.

You oppress people, you ensure that they exist in extreme poverty.

Then you label the only weapons available to the extremely poor as terrorism.

The only thing that isn't terrorism is the weapons and easy prerogatives of the very rich.

I label attacks aimed at civilians to be terrorism. You can resist without engaging in terrorism--look at what happened during WWII. Lots of resistance to the Nazis without resorting to terrorism.

 

[arkirk]

Money comes from wherever people can get it. I am referring to your attempt to lock us in perpetual support of IDF mass murders in Gaza. You have no idea what goes through the mind of the average Gazan or even the minds of HAMAS members or their leaders. You have no special knowledge that allows you to assume in our behalf that "The war will continue." You focus only on war and the need for it. Why is it that way? You ignored the part of my post that asked the real questions regarding this issue in your quotation.

Have you ever known a Palestinian? Have you ever worked with a Palestinian? I have. They have brains just like us. They don't automatically deserve to be ground into the dust under IDF bombs. They don't think the way you say they think. They are NOT walking bundles of evil intentions and don't deserve your racist characterizations.

It doesn't matter what's going through their minds. So long as the Islamist money pours in and Israel exists the war will continue. If the current combatants make peace the money will just move to new combatants. (We've already seen this happen with the shift from Fatah to Hamas. Fatah moved too much towards peace, the Islamist money moved on.)

- - - Updated - - -

Substantial terrorist movements are always the result of external money.

If you define the resistance to oppression by people suffering from externally imposed poverty as terrorism then you are right.

You oppress people, you ensure that they exist in extreme poverty.

Then you label the only weapons available to the extremely poor as terrorism.

The only thing that isn't terrorism is the weapons and easy prerogatives of the very rich.

I label attacks aimed at civilians to be terrorism. You can resist without engaging in terrorism--look at what happened during WWII. Lots of resistance to the Nazis without resorting to terrorism.

Be careful, Loren. You might just be labeling yourself as a terrorist. You engage in attacks aimed at civilians. You advocate them. It is just a matter of which civilians...if they are Jewish or American, it's "terrorism." If it is Palestinian civilians or U.N. employees, that are targeted and killed, it is "self defense." It's a mighty peculiar world you are living in, Loren.

Huge chunks of cash and effective weapons are not "pouring into Palestine" from anywhere but the U.S. and only the Israelis are using them. Untermensche is right...the U.S. is an accomplice to these crimes. The same money would be better spent on humanitarian aid to the Palestinians, but we cannot get our government to stop. It is out of control... Have you any idea how we can make THAT STOP? Oh, no! the "war must continue till the last dog (Palestinian) is dead."

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Be careful, Loren. You might just be labeling yourself as a terrorist. You engage in attacks aimed at civilians. You advocate them. It is just a matter of which civilians...if they are Jewish or American, it's "terrorism." If it is Palestinian civilians or U.N. employees, that are targeted and killed, it is "self defense." It's a mighty peculiar world you are living in, Loren.

You apparently do not understand the meaning of intent.

I recognize that there will be civilian casualties in war. That's a different thing than aiming at civilians. You aim at military targets and realize there sometimes will be civilians nearby. With an enemy like Hamas there might even be civilians being held at ground zero. That's not the same as aiming at them.

Huge chunks of cash and effective weapons are not "pouring into Palestine" from anywhere but the U.S. and only the Israelis are using them. Untermensche is right...the U.S. is an accomplice to these crimes. The same money would be better spent on humanitarian aid to the Palestinians, but we cannot get our government to stop. It is out of control... Have you any idea how we can make THAT STOP? Oh, no! the "war must continue till the last dog (Palestinian) is dead."

Denying the money and arms that are coming in doesn't make them go away. How do you think Hamas pays for the war???

As for humanitarian aid to the Palestinians, there's no way to do it.

If you provide cash they'll just use it for war.

If you provide things that would help the people but can't be used for war they'll just say no. (For example, the desalinization plant they have been offered.)

If you provide portable things Hamas will seize them and sell them to get money for war. That's why their hospitals have no medicine despite donations.

 

[untermensche]

If you define the resistance to oppression by people suffering from externally imposed poverty as terrorism then you are right.

You oppress people, you ensure that they exist in extreme poverty.

Then you label the only weapons available to the extremely poor as terrorism.

The only thing that isn't terrorism is the weapons and easy prerogatives of the very rich.

I label attacks aimed at civilians to be terrorism. You can resist without engaging in terrorism--look at what happened during WWII. Lots of resistance to the Nazis without resorting to terrorism.

Yes. You label the only available military tactics to an oppressed extremely weak and extremely poor people as terrorism.

It is not justice that they attack civilians. But it is injustice that drives them to do it.

Give the Palestinians tanks and jets and they will kill civilians exactly as the Israelis do.

 

[Togo]

I label attacks aimed at civilians to be terrorism. You can resist without engaging in terrorism--look at what happened during WWII. Lots of resistance to the Nazis without resorting to terrorism.

Much of the resistance to the Nazis was terrorism. Blowing up trains and public buildings, poisoning food and water supplies, arson attacks, assassination of civilian collaborators, sabotage of public infrastructure, and so on. Resistance forces frequently killed civilians, assisted in military operations, and hid military supplies and operatives amongst civilian populations. Often they were conduits for foreign powers e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Operations_Executive

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I label attacks aimed at civilians to be terrorism. You can resist without engaging in terrorism--look at what happened during WWII. Lots of resistance to the Nazis without resorting to terrorism.

Yes. You label the only available military tactics to an oppressed extremely weak and extremely poor people as terrorism.

It is not justice that they attack civilians. But it is injustice that drives them to do it.

Give the Palestinians tanks and jets and they will kill civilians exactly as the Israelis do.

What you miss is that these days they selectively go after civilians. That's not about necessity, that's about deliberately choosing to.

 

[arkirk]

You apparently do not understand the meaning of intent.

I recognize that there will be civilian casualties in war. That's a different thing than aiming at civilians. You aim at military targets and realize there sometimes will be civilians nearby. With an enemy like Hamas there might even be civilians being held at ground zero. That's not the same as aiming at them.

Huge chunks of cash and effective weapons are not "pouring into Palestine" from anywhere but the U.S. and only the Israelis are using them. Untermensche is right...the U.S. is an accomplice to these crimes. The same money would be better spent on humanitarian aid to the Palestinians, but we cannot get our government to stop. It is out of control... Have you any idea how we can make THAT STOP? Oh, no! the "war must continue till the last dog (Palestinian) is dead."

Denying the money and arms that are coming in doesn't make them go away. How do you think Hamas pays for the war???

As for humanitarian aid to the Palestinians, there's no way to do it.

If you provide cash they'll just use it for war.

If you provide things that would help the people but can't be used for war they'll just say no. (For example, the desalinization plant they have been offered.)

If you provide portable things Hamas will seize them and sell them to get money for war. That's why their hospitals have no medicine despite donations.

I feel almost as sorry for you in your delusions as I do for the Palestinians. As for humanitarian aid...IDF has killed people trying to deliver this to Gaza...attacked boats, seized materials....You are right, there is no way to get humanitarian aid to Gaza. Your continual dehumanizing of Hamas is about as silly. Hamas people cooperate with the people who live there. No organization is as rabidly violent as you portray Hamas....excepting in your mind you feel empowered to advocate that level of violence on Hamas and indeed any Palestinian. Your arguments are without merit. There is no room in your thinking for even an indirect approach to peace. Your entire thinking about Palestine is conditioned on the notion of an unchanging violent enemy that can only do evil existing in Gaza. What if Hamas were to disappear tomorrow? You would not have anything to say about Gaza... no plans or ideas on how to create civilized conditions in the area....just warfare. That is all you know and all you advocate. Your language toward Hamas is HATE SPEECH.

You made such a thing talking about the importance of intent. What is your intent? Do you assume Hamas thinks like you so they must be all be killed?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I label attacks aimed at civilians to be terrorism. You can resist without engaging in terrorism--look at what happened during WWII. Lots of resistance to the Nazis without resorting to terrorism.

Much of the resistance to the Nazis was terrorism. Blowing up trains and public buildings, poisoning food and water supplies, arson attacks, assassination of civilian collaborators, sabotage of public infrastructure, and so on. Resistance forces frequently killed civilians, assisted in military operations, and hid military supplies and operatives amongst civilian populations. Often they were conduits for foreign powers e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Operations_Executive

Trains in wartime are certainly military targets. Military food & water supplies are also certainly valid targets.

Arson depends on what you are burning. Collaborators are valid targets. Some public infrastructure is going to be of military use and thus valid.

Hiding amongst civilians is not terrorism, although deliberately using them as cover in a combat situation is a war crime.

 

[arkirk]

Much of the resistance to the Nazis was terrorism. Blowing up trains and public buildings, poisoning food and water supplies, arson attacks, assassination of civilian collaborators, sabotage of public infrastructure, and so on. Resistance forces frequently killed civilians, assisted in military operations, and hid military supplies and operatives amongst civilian populations. Often they were conduits for foreign powers e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Operations_Executive

Trains in wartime are certainly military targets. Military food & water supplies are also certainly valid targets.

Arson depends on what you are burning. Collaborators are valid targets. Some public infrastructure is going to be of military use and thus valid.

Hiding amongst civilians is not terrorism, although deliberately using them as cover in a combat situation is a war crime.

More talk about special conditions that apply for killing...hmmm. Just like I said in the post above. Nothing but warfare. Never a peace plan or idea. Just who you can kill and why. There actually are no war crimes except war itself, Loren. If you are in a war you didn't have to be in, then there is a war crime on your side. We are fed all these excuses for war and they all are shallow and full of deception. War is not a pastime or an amusement except in a video game. How can we have peace in Gaza....forget telling me anymore why we can't have peace. How could we have peace? C'mon Loren...try to think of PEACE.

 

[untermensche]

Yes. You label the only available military tactics to an oppressed extremely weak and extremely poor people as terrorism.

It is not justice that they attack civilians. But it is injustice that drives them to do it.

Give the Palestinians tanks and jets and they will kill civilians exactly as the Israelis do.

What you miss is that these days they selectively go after civilians. That's not about necessity, that's about deliberately choosing to.

No. It is a military tactic aimed at disrupting the morale of the much stronger oppressor.

It is saying that there will be a cost to your oppression even if it is such an unfair fight.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Trains in wartime are certainly military targets. Military food & water supplies are also certainly valid targets.

Arson depends on what you are burning. Collaborators are valid targets. Some public infrastructure is going to be of military use and thus valid.

Hiding amongst civilians is not terrorism, although deliberately using them as cover in a combat situation is a war crime.

More talk about special conditions that apply for killing...hmmm. Just like I said in the post above. Nothing but warfare. Never a peace plan or idea. Just who you can kill and why. There actually are no war crimes except war itself, Loren. If you are in a war you didn't have to be in, then there is a war crime on your side. We are fed all these excuses for war and they all are shallow and full of deception. War is not a pastime or an amusement except in a video game. How can we have peace in Gaza....forget telling me anymore why we can't have peace. How could we have peace? C'mon Loren...try to think of PEACE.

Of course I'm talking about the laws of war in considering what's a valid target in time of war.

Whether the war should exist or not has nothing to do with this.

And I've already explained multiple times why peace isn't a possibility.

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What you miss is that these days they selectively go after civilians. That's not about necessity, that's about deliberately choosing to.

No. It is a military tactic aimed at disrupting the morale of the much stronger oppressor.

It is saying that there will be a cost to your oppression even if it is such an unfair fight.

Then you should have no objections to Israel smashing the houses of terrorists.

 

[untermensche]

No. It is a military tactic aimed at disrupting the morale of the much stronger oppressor.

It is saying that there will be a cost to your oppression even if it is such an unfair fight.

Then you should have no objections to Israel smashing the houses of terrorists.

Doesn't follow.

Israel carries out decades of massive oppression.

It doesn't get to escalate that oppression because people resist the only way they can.