laughing dog
Contributor
It may be fine with you. But the gov't of Israel is on record of having conniptions when the PLO in the West Bank moves towards statehood.
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What should Israel do?
- Thread starter steve_bnk
- Start date
You realize Israel is a democracy and everyone has basically the same rights now?
If you mean to include the Palestinians in this situation the result would be the ethnic cleansing of the country to make it 100% Muslim. You're just assuming it's the Jews causing the problem when really it's the Muslims.
Aiding the enemy in times of war is treason. That's what the original refugees did.
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Israel has conniptions about the Palestinians simply trashing prior agreements.
The basic problem is the Palestinians are trying to become a warlike state rather than a peaceful state.
The Palestinians are trying to gain freedom. Why is it at all surprising that they would be violent towards Israel, when Israel has walled them off in reservations they are not allowed to leave?
4321lynx
Veteran Member
HaRaAYah said:
This just is not true, it is propaganda, seemingly with no basis in fact; -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Palestine
Though I admit, if I were a Jew, I would back Israel as you do, with no regard to truth or facts. The alternative - Arab rule or an Arab majority population, now or in the near future would mean a final Holocaust for the Jews. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not just blind, but willfully blind, or an Arab propagandist. Just look at the Arab world in the Orient, in Africa, and the Muslim world in general, Malaysia and Indonesia excluded.
I can only repeat what I said in the "Israelis and Palestinians both suck" thread
This just is not true, it is propaganda, seemingly with no basis in fact; -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Palestine
Though I admit, if I were a Jew, I would back Israel as you do, with no regard to truth or facts. The alternative - Arab rule or an Arab majority population, now or in the near future would mean a final Holocaust for the Jews. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not just blind, but willfully blind, or an Arab propagandist. Just look at the Arab world in the Orient, in Africa, and the Muslim world in general, Malaysia and Indonesia excluded.
I can only repeat what I said in the "Israelis and Palestinians both suck" thread
Israel doesn't stop them from leaving. Israel simply stops them from entering Israel. They're not welcome much of anywhere else, either, but that's not Israel's fault.
Your source does not support your claim. There's only one data point in there about the population of Jerusalem.
Overall the population was mostly Muslim but note the one detailed chart--the Jews lived only in the cities, most of the Muslims lived in the countryside. Thus you can't use the total population to show the mix in any given city.
That's one data point, which makes my statement technically incorrect. But if you read the entire article. You can draw two conclusions: 1) The Jews were there before there ever was a Muslim. 2) The Muslims came from outside and conquered the area. So if the Jews come to a land that was theirs and displace some of the people that also came dispersed people it's bad, but when others do it it's ok....
Arctish
Centimillionaire
"Basically" covers a lot of blemishes.
Israel favors Jews over non-jews in everything from housing to providing basic utilities to allowing people to bring home their foreign born spouses. You can't even call yourself an Israeli on your Israel issued ID because, according to Israel's highest court, that would undermine the character and the purpose of the Jewish State. You have to say if you're Jewish or not so the State knows how to treat you.
No, I'm quite certain it's racist, bigoted, greedy, and manipulative assholes who are causing the problem. Neither side has a monopoly on them. The sooner they're sidelined the better.
I call shenanigans.
1) You've avoided questions about the timeframe you are using. I believe you are avoiding them because you want to shoe-horn Plan Dalet into the war while at the same time claiming the war started when Arab States attacked Israel. Also, it looks like you're trying to sneak the Jewish emigrations of the 1970s into the same frame so you can claim equal numbers of Jews were made refugees as Palestinians.
When, exactly, did the war break out, in your opinion. Was it before or after Plan Dalet was implemented?
2) You have to be a citizen of a country before you can be a traitor to it. So you argument rests on the faulty notion that the Palestinians were granted citizenship in Israel. If they were, they'd have an even stronger case for returning to their country so they can fight charges of treason in a court of law.
No, the basic problem is that Israel cannot stomach the fight with militant Zionists required to recognize the right of Palestinian Christians and Muslims to either form their own country in parts of Eretz Yisreal or be full citizens in modern day Israel, and the Palestinians cannot stomach life under Occupation and the continual loss of land and resources with no hope of participating in the government that rules them.
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angelo
Deleted
Why are Palestinian apologist so worked up about Israel defending itself. If an apologists home was attacked every six months and a member of their family was injured or killed each time, would the apologist keep turning the other cheek????
Also, the number of Palestinians who have been killed or injured so far in this conflict which was started by hamas pales into insignificance when one looks at the figures of those killed or maimed by muslims fighting muslims in Iraq, Iran, Syria, Nigeria, Libya, etc. But then these thousands upon thousands victims aren't killed by Israel are they. So it seems that the apologists aren't really worried about Arabs dying as long as it's not Israel killing them!
Also, the number of Palestinians who have been killed or injured so far in this conflict which was started by hamas pales into insignificance when one looks at the figures of those killed or maimed by muslims fighting muslims in Iraq, Iran, Syria, Nigeria, Libya, etc. But then these thousands upon thousands victims aren't killed by Israel are they. So it seems that the apologists aren't really worried about Arabs dying as long as it's not Israel killing them!
untermensche
Contributor
The people who have killed the most in the region over the last decade are not Muslim.
The rest of the region is a bunch of amateurs at killing civilians compared to the US.
And Israel is not defending itself. It is defending the status quo. It is defending it's right to oppress millions and pay nothing for that crime.
Arctish
Centimillionaire
No one denies Israel the right to defend itself. But not everything Israel does is a matter of self defense. Some of it is oppression, theft of land and resources, and collective punishment of a captive population. That's what gets criticized around here.
Maybe a pacifist. Not many others would. And that's the problem, isn't it?
Who gets shot, bombed, beaten, and abused more often and with more fatal results, the Israelis or the Palestinians? I can link you to stories of Palestinian schoolchildren being stoned by settlers in Hebron day after day as they walk to school. I can link to stories of Palestinians kids shot on their way to school, including a girl who was lying helpless and crying on the ground when an Israeli soldier emptied his pistol into her, and another shot in the head by a settler in a drive by shooting. I can link to stories of Palestinian farmers helpless to stop the uprooting of their orchards, the walling off of their fields, the destruction of their wells. I can link to stories of people killed by missile strikes, artillery shells, or IDF explosives as they watched TV or stood in their homes. I can link to stories of sick and injured Palestinians who died because the IDF would not allow their family members to take them to hospitals, including one woman who was left lying on the floor of her home bleeding to death in front of her children during a raid that yielded nothing. All of these things happened before the current fighting. None of them had anything to do with Hamas.
So tell me, do you expect them to turn the other cheek? Or do you expect them to take up arms and defend themselves and their families?
What the Israelis suffer in terrorist attacks and rocket fire from Gaza is awful. What the Palestinians suffer every single day is worse. Ashkelon on a bad day is a walk in the park compared to Gaza on a good one. The sheer amount of human suffering in Gaza and the West Bank is so far beyond what Israelis go through there's almost no comparison. And yet, those who cry the loudest for the civilians under rocket fire are the ones cheering the loudest when civilians come under missile and tank fire.
If the roles were reversed and it was Israeli Jews trapped in Gaza and Muslim Palestinians manning the walls, tanks, and artillery, would your opinion of the righteousness of resistance change?
Let's test your theory. Find somebody to start a thread defending the killings in Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc. or start one yourself and see what happens.
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laruan
New member
suffer the little children
extract from -smh.com.au-
www.smh.com.au/comment/anatomy-of-revenge-kill-my-children
Only the soulless or the sick could argue these children will be any less mourned than the children killed on board that Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777, yet our ability to make dead Gazan children "other", to minimise the significance of their deaths is, at it’s root, the same response that allows people to kill them.
It is the power of abstraction.
The outcry over Gaza is but a fraction of what has been generated by MH17. Logic suggests we - as Australians value the dead of Gaza as fractions as well.
20, 50, 100 Arab dead kids = one dead Aussie child.
Whether you agree with me or not, I think we can all understand the despair and rage that must fill a parent's heart when their child is murdered, mutilated, crushed like an insect.
If Israel thinks the massacre of children will somehow subdue or pacify the people of Palestine, they're operating under a grave misunderstanding of human nature.
Every child that dies, every beloved spouse or relative dismembered by grim technology, marks the birth of another blood-enemy who dreams only of killing Israelis.
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/anatomy-of-revenge-kill-my-children-20140730-zx0w2.html#ixzz3903KE6bg.
What this journo is confirming is that western media and its readers are so desensitised about deaths in foreign and far away countries that they cannot mourn for those victims that are reported in large numbers everyday but get outraged when a smaller number ( in comparison ) of their own kin become victims.
extract from -smh.com.au-
www.smh.com.au/comment/anatomy-of-revenge-kill-my-children
Only the soulless or the sick could argue these children will be any less mourned than the children killed on board that Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777, yet our ability to make dead Gazan children "other", to minimise the significance of their deaths is, at it’s root, the same response that allows people to kill them.
It is the power of abstraction.
The outcry over Gaza is but a fraction of what has been generated by MH17. Logic suggests we - as Australians value the dead of Gaza as fractions as well.
20, 50, 100 Arab dead kids = one dead Aussie child.
Whether you agree with me or not, I think we can all understand the despair and rage that must fill a parent's heart when their child is murdered, mutilated, crushed like an insect.
If Israel thinks the massacre of children will somehow subdue or pacify the people of Palestine, they're operating under a grave misunderstanding of human nature.
Every child that dies, every beloved spouse or relative dismembered by grim technology, marks the birth of another blood-enemy who dreams only of killing Israelis.
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/anatomy-of-revenge-kill-my-children-20140730-zx0w2.html#ixzz3903KE6bg.
What this journo is confirming is that western media and its readers are so desensitised about deaths in foreign and far away countries that they cannot mourn for those victims that are reported in large numbers everyday but get outraged when a smaller number ( in comparison ) of their own kin become victims.
angelo
Deleted
I repeat. The death toll in Gaza of children and everyone else is insignificant when thousands upon thousands have been and are been killed in Iraq and Iran alone. Why isn't the media in a frenzy about that?
laruan
New member
AND TODAY people are still being killed and maimed in Laos Cambodia Vietnam from unexploded ordinance left over from the worlds most intense bombing campaign ever - for which no one has apologised or for which no one accepts responsibility
arkirk
Veteran Member
You seem to think human rights is a counting game. The answer to your question is that people like you keep apologizing for slaughter of people. You are arguing for insensitivity to human suffering and murder on the basis of numbers killed...and the religion of those killed. The problem is obviously a lot more complex than merely marking up numbers on a scorecard. All these wars are horrors without a hint of interest in justice and HUMAN RIGHTS. It appears to me, you are merely a closet racist...and not even very closeted.
Here we have a case of murder of children and women and old people and people who are prisoners in Gaza, trapped and unable to leave and you change the subject. You say this murder is okay as long as the numbers are small. Well, as of yesterday the death toll in Gaza was over 1100...mostly civilians, and a large contingent of women and children in that death count. This incursion is simply inhumane and criminal in its character and you just point and say.."Look elsewhere."
Why can't we look at murder and call it what it is, Angelo?
We are not apologizing for these women and kids. They had done NOTHING that needs to be apologized for. You are supporting a racist killing field. It is you who needs to apologize for your insensitivity to human suffering. Murdering women and children is NEVER INSIGNIFICANT.
Housing discrimination? Utilities? Evidence?
As for foreign spouses--there's no religious criteria here. Rather, there is a restriction on spouses from certain places--and that's because of past trouble with them. A lot of abusive marriages, a lot of terrorists.
I agree there are bad apples on both sides. However, I see the Islamists egging this thing on for ages--they're the real cause of the problem.
Many were expelled in 48, others were expelled later.
If they left rather than get citizenship then they certainly don't have right to return.
You're missing the fact that the Palestinians have repeatedly declared that even if they get a state they'll continue the fight.
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Syria?
You realize most of the deaths you are attributing to the US were really Shia vs Sunni conflicts?
The status quo: The existence of Israel.
Why doesn't he pay attention to who is actually causing the deaths of the children?
The answer is Hamas.
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You realize the primary cause of UXO deaths is mines, not bombs?
Most of it is booby traps set by the Viet Cong.
Crazy Eddie
Veteran Member
And they're setting such a great example to the Muslim world, aren't they?
Actually, it is EXTREMELY bearable. The Iron Dome defense system has reduced civilian Israeli casualties to a statistical blip, and Hamas withheld its rocket attacks throughout the entirety of 2013. In this case it was ISRAEL, not Hamas, that provoked the current hostilities, first with the crackdown on Hamas activists in the West Bank (where militant attacks are already relatively rare), in clear violation of Palestinian sovereignty, and this accompanied by raids and air strikes in Gaza just hours BEFORE the resumption of rocket fire.
Israel is NOT in an existential battle. They're just assholes.
If I were POTUS I would give Israel 72 hours to evacuate its west bank settlements, end the blockade on Gaza and withdrawal to its own borders; failure to do so would result in the PERMANENT termination of all military aid to Israel, including but not limited to the withdrawal of funding and/or support for the Iron Dome system. I'm sure Congress would have a huge problem with this, in which case legislative attempts to aid Israel would be met with my signing statement that all military aid to Israel MUST be disbursed in the form of crispy pre-cooked bacon (at least this way we know the Palestinians won't use it either).
I agree. Israel has gone and done something absolutely unreasonable because they are in a position of power. Pull the plug on some of that power, and you will see them suddenly feeling a lot more reasonable.
laruan
New member
..
You read it here folks all those cluster bombs in the fields of Laos and Cambodia were put there by the VIET CONG , lucky for them they had access to a plethora of B52 s
maxparrish
Veteran Member
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- Libertarian-Conservative, Agnostic.
Well, I confess there are moments I wouldn't be terribly upset if the Israeli's nuked gaza to glass, salted the radioactive earth, and sterilized the few survivors who were still fertile. But that may not be the optimal solution for Israel. So I think their invasion of the Gaza and conducting of a full scale war until every tunnel and most rockets are destroyed is more than warranted.
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