What will the Clintoncrats do if Bernie wins nomination?

[Jolly_Penguin]

But back on topic, if Bernie does somehow manage to take the nomination, do the Clintoncrats back him against Trump, or make quiet moves to win Trump his 2nd term and wait it out hoping to retake the Democratic party in 2024? I think its about even money on either. They clearly fear Bernie and losing their lucrative positions and pull and profit from lobbyists.

 

[TV and credit cards]

It's the two faces of Bernie Bros. Otoh, his devotees insist that he's the only one talking about the exact same policies that Democrats have been desperately trying to push through for decades, and yet, somehow, magically, their tunnel vision only sees Sanders as the one to ever have even mentioned such "radical" policies. They love him for his refusal to compromise, while out of the other side of their mouths, whenever any practical question is asked about how he's going to succeed with the exact same proposals that Democrats were not able to push through, suddenly Sanders is the magical compromiser, who can work deals like no other.

Iow, I don't see anyone itt thinking any such thing; we all know he won't ever get anything done and will have to compromise on every single policy he's been talking about, precisely because they are unrealistic. It is precisely the point we've always been pushing. What is the practical not the religious fervor?

The same aspirational religious bullshit that appeals to the Bernie Bros is the same reason why he would be a horrible POTUS and would easily be shut down at every turn, but because he's running on the messiah complex strategy, he won't ever be to blame. It was the extreme radical leftist progressive miraculous vision of a visionary messiah that was just too much for the corporatist blah blah blah horseshit.

Sanders has never gotten anything done in the forty years he's been mooching off the Democrats and shitting on the Democrats and pretending to not be a Democrat, when in fact every fucking thing he says is identical to every other Democrat to have run--including Bill Clinton--for the past forty years at the very least.

He did nothing in Congress but trade his vote for pet projects. In the rare instances he actually tried to push through a bill of his own, he failed far more often than he succeeded, precisely because (as Hillary noted) no one liked working with him, because it was all self-righteous aggrandizement and no meeting of the minds.

So, again, it's not about anyone itt thinking one thing or another about him (that I can see at least); it's his own two-faced narcissism and the cult of personality that he engendered that is of concern.

He literally stated that he was submitting his MFA proposal to "start a conversation" not to try to get it actually passed, because he conceded he knew it couldn't be. That "conversation" has been going on for forty years and he didn't start it nor has it ever stopped, which means what he did was a completely empty bit of carnival to make it LOOK like he's in the vanguard when in fact he's decades behind.

He's like the last kid in the class to smoke pot and when he finally does, he won't stop insisting that everyone else smoke it too! YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND! IT'S GREAT! Yeah, we do. We have all been smoking it for years. NO! NO! YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND!!

Fuck you, we do, shut the fuck up.

Only it just happened that when he started smoking, a whole new class of undergrads showed up, didn't know everyone else's history and thought he was the first one who ever smoked pot, so there's a whole group of ignorant freshmen who think he's the shit when in fact all the upper classmen know he's full of shit.

As evidenced by Bernie's abysmal support among upperclassmen. We saw it in Iowa and we'll see it in New Hampshire if similarly he can not get the turnout of fresh impressionable minds he hopes for.

Bernie is a fine representation of the ideals we all hope the United States can eventually emulate but he is a lousy politician. He is a lousy politician in a tepid political climate. Today, in the stew we are all in, he and more specifically the media would just exacerbate the divisiveness. He is the next worst thing to four more years of Trump. He just happens to be our Trump.

Today, the political chasm is vast. We need to build a bridge to those ideals. Just as no conservative senior would tolerate anyone taking away their Medicare or Social Security, if we can give those on the other side a taste of what Medicare for All can be, just get their neighbors talking about how much better it is, even if the cost difference is a wash, if all a public option amounts to for now is not having to deal with the headache of billing and the insurance company. I think we can at least accomplish this.

Or we can stay on our side and throw rocks at each other.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Thing you are failing to see: Bernie actually has more cross over appeal than most other Democrats do (Yang has even more). It isn't all about left vs right anymore. Many people who voted for Obama also voted for Trump.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Thing you are failing to see: Bernie actually has more cross over appeal than most other Democrats do (Yang has even more). It isn't all about left vs right anymore. Many people who voted for Obama also voted for Trump.

I think that his cross over appeal is greatly exaggerated. I'm sure that many white lower wage mid-west people will tell pollsters how much they'd like Bernie's economic policies. However, history has demonstrated many times that these people tend to vote on social issues: guns, bible in school, no to BLM; and etc. Regardless, potential cross-over appeal is not a reason to ignore the vote. If Bernie can't get the highest amount of votes and delegates, he shouldn't represent the democrats.

 

[southernhybrid]

So all of you who think Sanders is a dangerous absolutist who will never compromise on anything, what would be some specific examples of his doing this on the Senate?

I never said that, but I think there may have been a time when Sanders was a lot more radical then he is currently. I'm referring to the time when he praised Castro and other dictators. I said I would vote for Sanders if he becomes the nominee. I said that he will have to compromise if he wants to accomplish anything.

I do think that there are some absolutists who support Sanders. I have no idea what percentage falls into that category. These are the people who criticize and bully those who don't support Sanders. These are the people who will whine and sit out the election if they don't get their way. They are not a majority of Democrats. They are just unreasonable absolutists imo.

I'm going to wait until after Super Tuesday before I decide who to support in the primaries. And, my support will be my own business. None of the candidates exciters me. None of the candidate make me hopeful. But any one of the candidates would be a big improvement over Trump. I am a lot more concerned about the Democrats ability to maintain control of the House and take back the Senate. As long as we stay this divided, we're screwed.

 

[Toni]

Sanders has a better chance of making it happen because he actually wants to make it happen, and it isn't just a talking point for him to get votes and advance his own political career. He's not a sell out like most of the others. He's genuine and that's rare. He may or may not succeed, but at least he will genuinely try and not just blow smoke up your ass.

He has zero chance of making anything happen. Hell, he doesn't even have much of a chance of surviving his first term, if elected, in sufficiently good health to do anything at all. I don't write this to make fun of him but because I actually have seen what 4 years as POTUS does to a much younger, much healthier person than Bernie Sanders has been for the past 30 years or so.

That's not even addressing the question of whether Bernie Sanders could actually make good on ANY of his promises. Because he can't and he couldn't even if he were good at working with other people--which he is not. He himself acknowledges this.

He certainly won't be able to if you and your fellow "liberals" don't make any effort to make the change with him. The president alone doesn't have the power to make the change. It will depend on you. And if you stick with "why bother trying" then it will never change. Learned helplessness is a sad thing to observe.

Its like your nation's optimism all died with Obama's administration. He spoke of hope and change and it won you the election. Hillary's response to "Make American Great Again" was "America's Already Great". Her response to Bernie's bold vision was "No magical ponies" and "No, we Can't" instead of Oabma's "Yes we can" and her response to Trump was "I'm not him; He's bad so vote for me to avoid him". She lost for it.

To win the left needs a message of something to vote FOR. Bernie provides that. Yang provides that. Warren provides that. The clintoncrats like Biden, no so much.

It doesn't even matter if Bernie wins. He would not be able to enact his agenda. That's simply a fact. He's spent 40 years not convincing Democrats to do what he wants. Another 4 will not turn the tide for him.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Thing you are failing to see: Bernie actually has more cross over appeal than most other Democrats do (Yang has even more).

Yeah, that 1 to 5% is pretty intoxicating for polling in the Democrat primaries.

It isn't all about left vs right anymore. Many people who voted for Obama also voted for Trump.

Most voted for Clinton though.

 

[Toni]

But back on topic, if Bernie does somehow manage to take the nomination, do the Clintoncrats back him against Trump, or make quiet moves to win Trump his 2nd term and wait it out hoping to retake the Democratic party in 2024? I think its about even money on either. They clearly fear Bernie and losing their lucrative positions and pull and profit from lobbyists.

Oh, bullshit.

Many more people who prefer other democratic candidates to Sanders, who is not actually a Democrat but is someone who is too chickenshit to build up one of the less dominant parties and make an honest bid for POTUS as a few of his predecessors have done, but will hold their nose and vote for Sanders. Unlike many of Sanders' supporters who will gleefully vote for Trump or stay home in a Burn the Place Down Cause Life Ain't Fair mentality.

 

[Politesse]

But back on topic, if Bernie does somehow manage to take the nomination, do the Clintoncrats back him against Trump, or make quiet moves to win Trump his 2nd term and wait it out hoping to retake the Democratic party in 2024? I think its about even money on either. They clearly fear Bernie and losing their lucrative positions and pull and profit from lobbyists.

Oh, bullshit.

Many more people who prefer other democratic candidates to Sanders, who is not actually a Democrat but is someone who is too chickenshit to build up one of the less dominant parties and make an honest bid for POTUS as a few of his predecessors have done, but will hold their nose and vote for Sanders. Unlike many of Sanders' supporters who will gleefully vote for Trump or stay home in a Burn the Place Down Cause Life Ain't Fair mentality.

So you're claiming those people would be be voting true blue, except that because Sanders is running, now they are going to vote for Trump if he doesn't take the nomination, resulting in a net loss of votes for the party? That seems like a faulty understanding of human nature to me, so I would want to see some numbers. If not, then who cares whether some folks that were going to vote for Trump anyway, voted for Trump after a few brief months of planning to vote for someone else with more cross-over appeal?

 

[Jarhyn]

But back on topic, if Bernie does somehow manage to take the nomination, do the Clintoncrats back him against Trump, or make quiet moves to win Trump his 2nd term and wait it out hoping to retake the Democratic party in 2024? I think its about even money on either. They clearly fear Bernie and losing their lucrative positions and pull and profit from lobbyists.

Oh, bullshit.

Many more people who prefer other democratic candidates to Sanders, who is not actually a Democrat but is someone who is too chickenshit to build up one of the less dominant parties and make an honest bid for POTUS as a few of his predecessors have done, but will hold their nose and vote for Sanders. Unlike many of Sanders' supporters who will gleefully vote for Trump or stay home in a Burn the Place Down Cause Life Ain't Fair mentality.

Because that works out so well for Canada or Great Britain.

Splitting the left vote across two "left" parties is how you get Tories.

Instead, the focus MUST be on pushing the liberal party left. You do that by joining the party and being a progressive faction, not by splitting the party and the vote.

He is not just making an honest bid for president, though his bid IS honest: he's making a bid to change the party itself. Because in a FPTP democracy, you can't realistically run third party for president.

 

[PyramidHead]

Bernie or Bust people are not Democrats gone rogue, they are leftists and independents saying "we will vote for your shitty excuse for a political party if and only if you nominate Bernie Sanders, otherwise we will stay home or vote for someone else like we have been doing in every other election". You don't get to dictate the parameters of their vote, and if they think Biden or Buttigeig or Klobuchar would end up being no worse in the long run than a second Trump term, try to imagine why being crushed into powder by the American economic and political status quo for decades might not make them excited about someone who berates them for wanting a dignified life on their own terms.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Bernie or Bust people are not Democrats gone rogue, they are leftists and independents saying "we will vote for your shitty excuse for a political party if and only if you nominate Bernie Sanders, otherwise we will stay home or vote for someone else like we have been doing in every other election". You don't get to dictate the parameters of their vote, and if they think Biden or Buttigeig or Klobuchar would end up being no worse in the long run than a second Trump term, try to imagine why being crushed into powder by the American economic and political status quo for decades might not make them excited about someone who berates them for wanting a dignified life on their own terms.

Your support of Sanders borders on toxic and is most certainly counterproductive to Sanders' chances at the nomination.

 

[PyramidHead]

Bernie or Bust people are not Democrats gone rogue, they are leftists and independents saying "we will vote for your shitty excuse for a political party if and only if you nominate Bernie Sanders, otherwise we will stay home or vote for someone else like we have been doing in every other election". You don't get to dictate the parameters of their vote, and if they think Biden or Buttigeig or Klobuchar would end up being no worse in the long run than a second Trump term, try to imagine why being crushed into powder by the American economic and political status quo for decades might not make them excited about someone who berates them for wanting a dignified life on their own terms.

Your support of Sanders borders on toxic and is most certainly counterproductive to Sanders' chances at the nomination.

tOxIc SuPpOrT oh no whatever shall we do

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Bernie or Bust people are not Democrats gone rogue, they are leftists and independents saying "we will vote for your shitty excuse for a political party if and only if you nominate Bernie Sanders, otherwise we will stay home or vote for someone else like we have been doing in every other election". You don't get to dictate the parameters of their vote, and if they think Biden or Buttigeig or Klobuchar would end up being no worse in the long run than a second Trump term, try to imagine why being crushed into powder by the American economic and political status quo for decades might not make them excited about someone who berates them for wanting a dignified life on their own terms.

Your support of Sanders borders on toxic and is most certainly counterproductive to Sanders' chances at the nomination.

tOxIc SuPpOrT oh no whatever shall we do

Do you have any idea how you come across? Very few people in America are voting for a revolution. Your anger, abrassivity, and hostility will not bring a single person to Sanders' side. You'll do nothing but positively project the radical label onto Sanders that Trump and the GOP want people to think of when they hear of Sanders.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Things like universal single payer health care can't happen if even the "liberal" politicians won't push for it. Biden and Buttigieg are on the record against it. They want to protect the insurance companies. With Democrat leaders like that in charge you can't blame the Republicans.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Things like universal single payer health care can't happen if even the "liberal" politicians won't push for it. Biden and Buttigieg are on the record against it. They want to protect the insurance companies. With Democrat leaders like that in charge you can't blame the Republicans.

...says the ostrich. American Politics today isn't in a bubble that is free of influence from the last 40 years.

 

[Toni]

Bernie or Bust people are not Democrats gone rogue, they are leftists and independents saying "we will vote for your shitty excuse for a political party if and only if you nominate Bernie Sanders, otherwise we will stay home or vote for someone else like we have been doing in every other election". You don't get to dictate the parameters of their vote, and if they think Biden or Buttigeig or Klobuchar would end up being no worse in the long run than a second Trump term, try to imagine why being crushed into powder by the American economic and political status quo for decades might not make them excited about someone who berates them for wanting a dignified life on their own terms.

Your support of Sanders borders on toxic and is most certainly counterproductive to Sanders' chances at the nomination.

tOxIc SuPpOrT oh no whatever shall we do

Lose the election.

 

[marc]

It doesn't even matter if Bernie wins. He would not be able to enact his agenda. That's simply a fact. He's spent 40 years not convincing Democrats to do what he wants. Another 4 will not turn the tide for him.

40 years of being an independent congressman. Being president, especially elected as a Democratic president, would make the other democrats much more likely to listen to him. That is unless the Democrats decide they don't care about their own president, their own party's power, and refuse to work together out of spite.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

American Politics today isn't in a bubble that is free of influence from the last 40 years.

American politics is what Americans make it. You don't live in a dictatorship quite yet.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

It doesn't even matter if Bernie wins. He would not be able to enact his agenda. That's simply a fact. He's spent 40 years not convincing Democrats to do what he wants. Another 4 will not turn the tide for him.

40 years of being an independent congressman. Being president, especially elected as a Democratic president, would make the other democrats much more likely to listen to him. That is unless the Democrats decide they don't care about their own president, their own party's power, and refuse to work together out of spite.

A very real possibility.