What would count as proof of God

[Elixir]

How do you propose to examine more than one of the everythings? How can the everything possibly be plural?

Ah. There’s another one of my pet philosophy peeves.
Can there be more than one “multiverse”? Is it such that any new universe is just automatically part of the existing multiverse even if it spins off a constant stream of new universes itself? Or can it be or become its own, separate multiverse?
Important stuff!

 

[Thomas II]

How do you propose to examine more than one of the everythings? How can the everything possibly be plural?

Ah. There’s another one of my pet philosophy peeves.
Can there be more than one “multiverse”? Is it such that any new universe is just automatically part of the existing multiverse even if it spins off a constant stream of new universes itself? Or can it be or become its own, separate multiverse?
Important stuff!

 

[Thomas II]

 

[steve_bank]

I philosophize therefore I am.

I philosophize therefore I am god.

Is it rational to ponder the existence of something that is undefined, undetectable by scientific methods, etc.? As neural exercise I suppose it is.

Metaphysics to me is mental gymnastics, exercise. Metaphysics being thought forms nor connected to reality.

Religion is pervasive, it is important to understand and be able to respond to it out in the real everyday world.

It is irrational given observation to dismiss it as meaningless. As I see evolution gave us imagination, myths traditionaly kept imagination from running wild.

 

[skepticalbip]

I philosophize therefore I am.

I philosophize therefore I am god.

Is it rational to ponder the existence of something that is undefined, undetectable by scientific methods, etc.? As neural exercise I suppose it is.

Metaphysics to me is mental gymnastics, exercise. Metaphysics being thought forms nor connected to reality.

Religion is pervasive, it is important to understand and be able to respond to it out in the real everyday world.

It is irrational given observation to dismiss it as meaningless. As I see evolution gave us imagination, myths traditionaly kept imagination from running wild.

I see three different but related things; religion, metaphysics, and fantasy. Metaphysics is people creating a "just so story" to explain something they don't understand but never testing that story. This would include "explaining" such things as coincidences. When the "just so story" gains acceptance by enough people it becomes codified as a religion... A recent example is Scientology. Fantasy is much different. Fantasy is just imagination disregarding any facets of reality that would interfere with the "story's" flow... No one, even the one telling the story, actually takes it seriously. If anyone did happen to take it seriously then they would spin it into a metaphysics story.

ETA:
The difference between metaphysics and physics (science) is that, although a "just so story" is spun by scientists to explain something they don't understand, that 'story' is modeled mathematically within the limits of know laws and rigorously tested. If the model fails the test then it is remodeled and retested or dropped and a different model developed.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

How in the world was Scientology not fantasy (pyramid scheme?) turn religion? There was virtually no metaphysical portion to it. To me metaphysical is what myths are trying to explain, generalized individual questions about nature.

 

[skepticalbip]

How in the world was Scientology not fantasy (pyramid scheme?) turn religion? There was virtually no metaphysical portion to it. To me metaphysical is what myths are trying to explain, generalized individual questions about nature.

It could be said that Christianity began as a fantasy. It is based on tales of a miracle man (like Superman) able to, if not "able to leap over tall buildings in a single bound", was able to raise the dead, walk on water, heal the blind and lepers, turn water into wine, etc.

Scientology was certainly started as fantasy. But it developed into a metaphysical pseudoscience to "explain" human nature, even developed a "creation myth". Its "explanations" were codified and drew an increasing number of 'believers' and is now a full blown religion.

 

[Elixir]

Its "explanations" were codified and drew an increasing number of 'believers' and is now a full blown religion.

Are any other "religions" amenable to the purchase of higher, more exalted status by their believers?

Circa 1971, I was accosted by a gaggle of young "suits" from the Scientology recruitment department. I reluctantly agreed to let them hook me up to one of their meters. Then, to demonstrate the complete an utter lack of control I had over my own body responses, they had me pinch myself to where it caused pain. The needle moved... about halfway round the dial.
Then they asked me to simply recall the pain of the pinch, and again - the needle moved (a little). That was their "aha" moment; "SEE? you have NO control over how you respond!"
I didn't take well to that assertion. I had read enough Gurdjieff and Ouspensky and practiced enough meditation to know exactly what that meter was registering, and so challenged them.
"Bullshit! You want to see me make that needle move without doing anything?"
That got their attention. I summoned a surge of electrical impulse to the hand that had the electrodes on it, and WHAM! that needle pegged hard. The little penguins backed away in horror. I stood up, removed the electrodes and walked out, as they cowered away from me...

 

[Jarhyn]

Its "explanations" were codified and drew an increasing number of 'believers' and is now a full blown religion.

Are any other "religions" amenable to the purchase of higher, more exalted status by their believers?

Circa 1971, I was accosted by a gaggle of young "suits" from the Scientology recruitment department. I reluctantly agreed to let them hook me up to one of their meters. Then, to demonstrate the complete an utter lack of control I had over my own body responses, they had me pinch myself to where it caused pain. The needle moved... about halfway round the dial.
Then they asked me to simply recall the pain of the pinch, and again - the needle moved (a little). That was their "aha" moment; "SEE? you have NO control over how you respond!"
I didn't take well to that assertion. I had read enough Gurdjieff and Ouspensky and practiced enough meditation to know exactly what that meter was registering, and so challenged them.
"Bullshit! You want to see me make that needle move without doing anything?"
That got their attention. I summoned a surge of electrical impulse to the hand that had the electrodes on it, and WHAM! that needle pegged hard. The little penguins backed away in horror. I stood up, removed the electrodes and walked out, as they cowered away from me...

God, now I want to go in just to fuck with them.

It's interesting insofar as some of the things scientology discusses are not entirely inaccurate. It's like Inceldom: kernels of truth buried in a nugget of shit.

After enough meditation, one realizes that there are a number of functions hooked into "normal behavior", and we may grow them and place them as we live our lives; these are formed of the chaos of "unused" or "unformatted" neural regions.

The Scientology religion focuses on removing and dissipating these systems from our behavior, not knowing that by doing so, they are removing vital systems of critical thought and feedback within their own personality, essentially paying for being brainwashed.

Enough meditation and maintenance and someone starts to learn how to make sure these systems are functional and healthy rather than overloud and controlling of their experience and often enough without dissipating them back into unformatted junk, just by retraining them into something useful directly.

Once someone learns to tend the garden of the mind gnostically, many things discussed by scientology becomes attainable. Just not through actually being a scientologist.

 

[Elixir]

God, now I want to go in just to fuck with them

Highly recommend. I’d be surprised if at least half of that gaggle didn’t quit the cult shortly after my “visit”.

 

[Jarhyn]

God, now I want to go in just to fuck with them

Highly recommend. I’d be surprised if at least half of that gaggle didn’t quit the cult shortly after my “visit”.

I wonder if I can get the thing to hit the chorus beat from "ghost busters" before I start belting it out, out loud.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

How in the world was Scientology not fantasy (pyramid scheme?) turn religion? There was virtually no metaphysical portion to it. To me metaphysical is what myths are trying to explain, generalized individual questions about nature.

It could be said that Christianity began as a fantasy. It is based on tales of a miracle man (like Superman) able to, if not "able to leap over tall buildings in a single bound", was able to raise the dead, walk on water, heal the blind and lepers, turn water into wine, etc.

Scientology was certainly started as fantasy. But it developed into a metaphysical pseudoscience to "explain" human nature, even developed a "creation myth". Its "explanations" were codified and drew an increasing number of 'believers' and is now a full blown religion.

That is a long way around to say 'yes, Scientology started as fantasy'. Also, I wouldn't call their creation story a "myth" as a myth has a particular purpose in answering something regarding nature, but it generally isn't supposed to be taken literally. The Narrative of the Garden isn't a historical take on the start of mankind (much to YEC dread). Nor is the First Story of Creation supposed to be literally taken as fact. The first is likely a political narrative while the other is poem ripped off from the Babylonians.

Scientology's origin story is manufactured fiction that is supposed to be true and is flat out pyramid-scheme fiction.

 

[bilby]

Are any other "religions" amenable to the purchase of higher, more exalted status by their believers?

Roman Catholicism?

Adherents to that cult certainly behave as though they can buy their way into a better afterlife.

 

[Elixir]

Are any other "religions" amenable to the purchase of higher, more exalted status by their believers?

Roman Catholicism?

Adherents to that cult certainly behave as though they can buy their way into a better afterlife.

B-b-but what about the camels and needles thing? Don’t they preach that any more?

 

[bilby]

Are any other "religions" amenable to the purchase of higher, more exalted status by their believers?

Roman Catholicism?

Adherents to that cult certainly behave as though they can buy their way into a better afterlife.

B-b-but what about the camels and needles thing? Don’t they preach that any more?

They preach lots of things. I am talking about what they do.

 

[Elixir]

B-b-but what about the camels and needles thing? Don’t they preach that any more?

They preach lots of things. I am talking about what they do.

After posting that, I reflected a little and realized that FAPP they (RCC) do the same thing as the Elrons. They are a little more circumspect about it than our Southern Evangelicals, but it amounts to the same “Prosperity Gospel” that they pull out when needed to justify wretched excess.

 

[bilby]

B-b-but what about the camels and needles thing? Don’t they preach that any more?

They preach lots of things. I am talking about what they do.

After posting that, I reflected a little and realized that FAPP they (RCC) do the same thing as the Elrons. They are a little more circumspect about it than our Southern Evangelicals, but it amounts to the same “Prosperity Gospel” that they pull out when needed to justify wretched excess.

When I look at the obscene wealth gathered by the Vatican, I am reminded of Terry Prattchett's 'Yen Buddists', a sect of monks who, having recognised that money is the cause of suffering and evil, have selflessly taken upon themselves the task of gathering as much of it as possible, so that others can be spared its harmful effects.

 

[steve_bank]

The RCC mantra was always suffer in silence. offer it to god.

The pope, residing in wealth in the Vatican, calls out wealth. Priests all take vows of poverty.

 

[skepticalbip]

The RCC mantra was always suffer in silence. offer it to god.

The pope, residing in wealth in the Vatican, calls out wealth. Priests all take vows of poverty.

I would think that living in poverty wouldn't be that bad if everything you would use money buy (if you had money) was provided to you freely.

 

[Elixir]

The RCC mantra was always suffer in silence. offer it to god.

The pope, residing in wealth in the Vatican, calls out wealth. Priests all take vows of poverty.

I would think that living in poverty wouldn't be that bad if everything you would use money buy (if you had money) was provided to you freely.

No kidding.
I think I missed my calling.