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What's wrong with PRICE-GOUGING? during a DISASTER or any other time?

I know. It's a great shame.
Ha.

I know one thing, there is such a thing as 'my wallet'.

Sure there is.

But the money in that wallet has a value that is outside your control, and it isn't worth anything until you spend it. Today that $1 bill might buy you a half a gallon of gas; Keep 'your money' in that wallet for ten years, and suddenly you can only get quarter of a gallon for the same $1 bill. Half of 'your' gas money has gone - because money isn't the kind of thing you can own.

You still have exactly the same amount of wallet; but you only have half as much money (despite the numbers on the bills, and the number of bills, remaining the same).
 
Ha.

I know one thing, there is such a thing as 'my wallet'.

Sure there is.

But the money in that wallet has a value that is outside your control, and it isn't worth anything until you spend it. Today that $1 bill might buy you a half a gallon of gas; Keep 'your money' in that wallet for ten years, and suddenly you can only get quarter of a gallon for the same $1 bill. Half of 'your' gas money has gone - because money isn't the kind of thing you can own.

You still have exactly the same amount of wallet; but you only have half as much money (despite the numbers on the bills, and the number of bills, remaining the same).

What has the value of the money in my wallet not being under my control to do with it being incorrect to refer to it as my money?
 
bilby said:
Money is a token that indicates 'The bearer is owed stuff by the society (or societies) in which this money is used'. As such, there is no such thing as 'my money', or 'your money' or 'other people's money'; Society determines how much each person is owed via various mechanisms, including (but not limited to) payment in exchange for goods, services, and labour; the time value of money (Inflation, interest payments); control of the money supply (setting of interest rates, taxation, issuing of currency by central banks); etc., etc. All of this is essentially a rationing system; It accounts for labour and innovation automatically, and has an additional mechanism to allocate resources by need, in the form of government services. It is a hybrid capitalist/socialist system, and it is the best system we have ever had for allocating resources.

The problem is that the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises. Everything you say is true, except your conclusion that there is no such thing as saying 'my money,' etc. If you define money as you do (which is reasonable and true) then one can easily translate the term 'money' into 'share of society,' or 'share of common assets.' If you do that, which is again a reasonable conclusion based on the facts you present, then it is obvious that everyone does have a contribution to society, etc. If money is the token counter for that, then obviously, everyone who contributes 'has' money.

For your conclusion to be true, money would have to be something else, that we borrow from an agency that controls it and can revoke it at their will. You might think the government or the banks fit that description, but it doesn't really. While the government generally does manage the currency, it is not true that there wouldn't be currency if it didn't. Currency was originally not controlled by government. Government took control because they saw the benefit, and people allowed them to control it because they too benefited. The idea that this is currently out of control of the ordinary person doesn't mean that it is fundamentally out of control. If the government stopped issuing currency, plenty of others would start.
 
If the government stopped issuing currency, plenty of others would start.

They do anyhow... "cryptocurrencies" like Bitcoin are popping up all over, and people support them. I think one of the appeals is that governments don't control them.
 
Currency was originally not controlled by government. Government took control because they saw the benefit, and people allowed them to control it because they too benefited.

Do you have a cite for this statement?

My understanding is there's no clear picture of how money came about, circa 800 bce. So how do you make the claim that govt wasn't involved in its origination?
 
Same here. Our local store limited the number of cases of water per card holder (BJ's). It was very calm and easy - across the street at WM - it was mayhem.
In a disaster situation it helps more than price gouging. With rationing you don't have to worry about there being nothing for you and your family. With rationing sociopathic opportunists can't buy out the supply to resell at a 3000% markup putting the goods out of the price reach of people that need those goods.

And it's not like real world experience would suggest rationing rewards the wrong people and creates black markets.

"Wrong people" . . . you mean those dirty poors?

Strangely,one of our local grocery stores announced that they had received a shipment of water ahead of this hurricane. People lined up, and each were given 2.5 gallons. There was no pushing, no price gouging, no panic, and especially no hoarders.

Contrast with the scene at another local store that did not <whispering the dirty word> ratio the water... it looked worse than a Best Buy on Black Friday.
 
Same here. Our local store limited the number of cases of water per card holder (BJ's). It was very calm and easy - across the street at WM - it was mayhem.

I find the rush to buy bottled water really strange. Do that many people no longer drink their tap water or is it just that they have been convinced somehow that it is impossible to put their tap water into containers in preparing for emergencies?
 
Coinage evolved from actual goods that were exchanged. Arrowheads and ax-heads and spear-heads were exchanged like currency, and in some cases early coins did resemble these things. In China, they had 'Knife money,' which was a standard 'coin' made to resemble a knife, obviously an official successor to the use of knives as a proto-currency. Other tokens that were used were cowrie shells, obviously not government issued.

While you are technically correct, we do not 'know' that this happened this way, the progression from valuable goods to coins is quite clear and intuitive. There was undoubtably a period between the time when people exchanged arrow-heads and used them to actually be arrows, to a time where some people used arrow heads as currency with no intention of using them as arrows, and then the government deciding to issue coins to replace the actual sharp arrow heads.
 
Coinage evolved from actual goods that were exchanged. Arrowheads and ax-heads and spear-heads were exchanged like currency, and in some cases early coins did resemble these things. In China, they had 'Knife money,' which was a standard 'coin' made to resemble a knife, obviously an official successor to the use of knives as a proto-currency. Other tokens that were used were cowrie shells, obviously not government issued.

While you are technically correct, we do not 'know' that this happened this way, the progression from valuable goods to coins is quite clear and intuitive. There was undoubtably a period between the time when people exchanged arrow-heads and used them to actually be arrows, to a time where some people used arrow heads as currency with no intention of using them as arrows, and then the government deciding to issue coins to replace the actual sharp arrow heads.

You're speculating. Primitive societies that have been studied have not been shown to use money as we conceive it, or engage in much bartering. What you're calling money usually has ritual significance of some kind, and the transactions are not purely economic. Bartering between groups is highly stylized. Nothing like what we would call a market. Primitive societies are communal; you don't buy and sell things, you give and receive. Adam's Smith fable of the butcher and the baker is just that, a fable.

What we think of as a market economy has existed as long as writing has, and existed for thousands of years before coinage came along. What archaeology has to offer provides more support for the chartalist position than libertarian(to put a label on it). IOW, money(or credit) and markets have always coexisted with authority i.e. govt. Sure, areas deprived of money or govt develop work arounds for something they already understand, but as far as is known, economy and govt have always been and are tightly integrated
 
I don't think it is speculating: The use of shells is well documented. There is a vast amount of evidence for a widespread trade of metal in the form of axeheads and similar items. At first they were literal axe heads, but later they became axehead shaped ingots. These circulated far beyond the demense of any government of the day. At the time, mines and such would have been government owned, but the idea of trading the items as standard tokens does not require government intervention. The transition between object-token-currency is clear, while the idea of ritual exchange of gifts becoming government issued currency is not.

I don't think that studying present day primitive societies habits to be too informative, as virtually all such surviving cultures exist in remote and economically insignificant territories. There is no reason to think that there wasn't an intermediary period between such ritualized exchanges and the market economy, that would have been experienced by societies that were prone to economic development, and would have been quickly replaced by more efficient systems that evolve elsewhere in the network. Once you have the trade network, ideas like currency and government control of currency would spread rapidly and obliterate earlier systems.

I also have never disputed the idea that government and economy are always closely linked. I have argued that point of view repeatedly. My view is that government derives from economic activity, not vice versa. Currency came first, then government control of it. Agriculture came first, then the agrarian social order. There will always be a short, obscure period between the origination of a new economic practice and the resulting government and societal changes that it produces.
 
I don't think it is speculating: The use of shells is well documented. There is a vast amount of evidence for a widespread trade of metal in the form of axeheads and similar items. At first they were literal axe heads, but later they became axehead shaped ingots. These circulated far beyond the demense of any government of the day. At the time, mines and such would have been government owned, but the idea of trading the items as standard tokens does not require government intervention. The transition between object-token-currency is clear, while the idea of ritual exchange of gifts becoming government issued currency is not.

I don't think that studying present day primitive societies habits to be too informative, as virtually all such surviving cultures exist in remote and economically insignificant territories. There is no reason to think that there wasn't an intermediary period between such ritualized exchanges and the market economy, that would have been experienced by societies that were prone to economic development, and would have been quickly replaced by more efficient systems that evolve elsewhere in the network. Once you have the trade network, ideas like currency and government control of currency would spread rapidly and obliterate earlier systems.

I also have never disputed the idea that government and economy are always closely linked. I have argued that point of view repeatedly. My view is that government derives from economic activity, not vice versa. Currency came first, then government control of it. Agriculture came first, then the agrarian social order. There will always be a short, obscure period between the origination of a new economic practice and the resulting government and societal changes that it produces.

I think it's a mistake to assume an equivalency between these examples of proto-money and money as we understand it. Sure, money would continue in other forms if govt disappeared, but history shows that it will continue in the form of the former govt. In the Dark Ages, there was almost no cash. But trading and payment was still calculated in Roman currency.
 
Same here. Our local store limited the number of cases of water per card holder (BJ's). It was very calm and easy - across the street at WM - it was mayhem.

I find the rush to buy bottled water really strange. Do that many people no longer drink their tap water or is it just that they have been convinced somehow that it is impossible to put their tap water into containers in preparing for emergencies?

How many suitable containers does the average person have?
 
I could scare up at least 5 gallons. One could also buy a new, clean plastic trash can or food grade bucket.
 
I find the rush to buy bottled water really strange. Do that many people no longer drink their tap water or is it just that they have been convinced somehow that it is impossible to put their tap water into containers in preparing for emergencies?

How many suitable containers does the average person have?

You can buy ten gallon water drums for like a dollar. Not the fancy ones mind, just the cheap shitty blue ones that work well enough. More importantly, why would these not be considered mandatory in a place with a season dedicated to HURRICANES?!
 
What's wrong with PRICE-GOUGING?

Coinage evolved from actual goods that were exchanged. Arrowheads and ax-heads and spear-heads were exchanged like currency, and in some cases early coins did resemble these things. In China, they had 'Knife money,' which was a standard 'coin' made to resemble a knife, obviously an official successor to the use of knives as a proto-currency. Other tokens that were used were cowrie shells, obviously not government issued.

While you are technically correct, we do not 'know' that this happened this way, the progression from valuable goods to coins is quite clear and intuitive. There was undoubtably a period between the time when people exchanged arrow-heads and used them to actually be arrows, to a time where some people used arrow heads as currency with no intention of using them as arrows, and then the government deciding to issue coins to replace the actual sharp arrow heads.

We do know in fact that Adam Smith was wrong and virtually no primitive societies used barter in exchanges between the members of the society, which are the vast majority of exchanges. Barter was only common in their equivalent of foreign trade, trade with other tribes.

In exchanges between the members of the society they used gifting as a form of exchange to avoid the biggest problem with barter, the double coincidence of wants, that someone who needs a different good that he holds has to find a barter partner that not only has the good that is needed but who wants the good being offered in exchange. If this wasn't hard enough the need for each others good have to occur at the same time.

In gifting the individual with the immediate need would find a member of the society that had the needed good and would express admiration for the needed good. The owner of the needed good would gift the it to the needy party with the tact understanding that the gift exchange created an obligation to reverse the gifting at some time in the future. Exchanges within say a tribe didn't depend on barter then, they depended on the same thing that they do today, credit and debt.

Gifting obviously required the trust on the part of the initial gifter that the recipient would honor the unspoken obligation to reciprocate with a gift in the future. This was sufficient in a small society of say less than fifty families where it is possible for everyone to know everyone else therefore you would know who the deadbeats are who won't honor their obligation to return the favor of a gift.

This is how government first got involved in the economy. In larger society where you didn't know the needy partner in a gift exchange you would ask the trusted authority, the tribal chief or a religious leader for example, if this person could be trusted to meet the unstated obligation of a return gift in the future.

This evolved in time to more formalized system were the trusted authority would guarantee the exchange, that the debt would be paid back, for a small fee of course. The trusted authority would require the borrower to deposit something of value to establish his worthiness. This over time evolved into the temple form of exchange, the temple would require a deposit of say grain or an obligation to do so in the future and would issue a letter that the bearer had this much credit with the temple. The letters were exchanged for the goods and this was an early form of our fiat credit and debt based money.

This is how you can have a money system based on say cows or shiffs of grain. (sheaves?) you didn't have to lead the cow to the market to barter and then on to the butcher to make change. The relative value of goods and services were fixed. A loaf of bread's relative value was fixed at say a hundredth of a cow or a fifth of a temple offering. Note that this puts the lie to another of Adam Smith's fables, it requires price fixing, the value of a good was determined by authority, who fixed the prices, not by the market.

The temples evolved into banks. It didn't take the banks very long at all to realize that they could create much more money than they had deposited in their stores since all that they had to do was to write on a piece of paper or a clay tablet to create money. The government had to step in to guarantee the currency and to control the banks.

Commerce got done for thousands of years this way before the emergence of coins made out of metal. When coins were invented in the ninth century BC they initially were used just for small purchases where it was inconvenient to do the accounting every time.

The gold standard was actually little more than a failed experiment. The gold in the money has to be worth more than the intrinsic value of the metal. Arbitrage is a bitch and it always happens. As long as there have been metal coins they have always had a higher value as money than the value of metal as a result. The same holds true for money backed by gold. When the vast experiment with the gold standard ended with the war that it caused, World War I, it is estimated that only 10% of the money in the gold standard countries was backed by gold.

This is the problem with bitcoins. like our fiat money bitcoins don't have any intrinsic value, but unlike our fiat money they become more valuable over time because the effort required to "mine" new bitcoins, solving increasingly complex algorithms, increases their value. This makes them unsuitable to use as money. There was a point in time that if you borrowed a enough bitcoins from a friend to buy two coffees worth six dollars and waited one year to pay your friend back those same bitcoins that bought coffees before are worth thousands of dollars.

Why? Because bitcoins were dreamed up by libertarians who long for us to return to the economic suicide of the gold standard. They purposely designed bitcoins to become increasingly rarer in relation to the demand in the insane belief that the money becoming more valuable, what economists call deflation, is better than than the money becoming less valuable, the opposite of deflation, inflation. Once again, they are completely wrong. Deflation is horrible for the economy. It surely leads to recession and depression. It rewards the person who keeps their money in a shoebox under the floorboards and punishes investors, consumers and debtors.
 
No one believes that deflation is good! Who do you think you are arguing with?

Currency was invented precisely because this small scale trust based gifting economy doesn't work at large scales. I mentioned that I don't really care about what 'primitive' societies did; only commerce ready economies, because they were the ones to create currency. I have no idea what sort of hobby horse you are on to think that just because we differ on whether the chicken came before the egg I must be some libertarian goldbug.
 
No one believes that deflation is good! Who do you think you are arguing with?

Currency was invented precisely because this small scale trust based gifting economy doesn't work at large scales. I mentioned that I don't really care about what 'primitive' societies did; only commerce ready economies, because they were the ones to create currency. I have no idea what sort of hobby horse you are on to think that just because we differ on whether the chicken came before the egg I must be some libertarian goldbug.

Except we do love deflation. Do you go to the store and say, hey I hope I pay the highest price for whatever item I am trying to get. Do you try and find deals, sales, giveaways? The internet wouldn't exist today if there wasn't deflation with computers. Most of us wouldn't be on this board if it wasn't free.


We're come to expect the inflation cycle. You want a 3% raise to cover the cost of living increase but it's because people get that 3% raise that causes that 3% raise in cost of living. Things would be better with deflation and salaries staying the same.
 
No one believes that deflation is good! Who do you think you are arguing with?

I think SD was arguing with these guys and their ilk : Mises Institute : Deflation Is Always Good for the Economy

Currency was invented precisely because this small scale trust based gifting economy doesn't work at large scales. I mentioned that I don't really care about what 'primitive' societies did; only commerce ready economies, because they were the ones to create currency. I have no idea what sort of hobby horse you are on to think that just because we differ on whether the chicken came before the egg I must be some libertarian goldbug.

Another version has it that some ancient (Roman?) genius hit on the idea of taxing vassal regions in a currency that only the conqueror can mint, rather than in consumables, precious metals etc. Since everyone must then have denarii, they become the common currency of account for which everything is exchangeable. Thus the conqueror can always take whatever it wants or raise an army simply by minting denarii.

Probably a bit of both?
 
What's wrong with increasing the price of something when the demand for it increases or the supply decreases? even if this is just a short-term change in demand/supply?
When the shortage of the thing demanded is a thing that people depend on to survive, or when the demand is caused by the sudden increased need of the thing in order TO survive, price gouging is an inherently exploitative action. While it is entirely justifiable by purely economic and financial logic, it is universally considered to be immoral or, at the very, least socially callous. Exploiting other people's desperation for financial gain is morally dubious to begin with, but it is ABSOLUTELY unacceptable in situations where that desperation is not the result of the victims' own actions (e.g. natural disasters or diseases).

What's wrong with profiteers taking advantage of an increased need as a way to make more money, if what they're doing is meeting that need? Isn't it good to satisfy people's needs?
Fulfillment of people's needs is the underlying logic of capitalism. We accept it because it works, and because when the system is fair, it allows for everyone's needs to be met:
I need milk and you need sugar. I trade you a cup of sugar for a cup of milk. Capitalism!

EXPLOITATION of people's needs is not the same thing as fulfillment. We accept this only because it is hard to prevent, and most forms of prevention would actually make the system somewhat unfair:
I need insulin in the next five minutes order to not die. You need a bigger house. You hand me some sale papers you just happen to have and make me sign over the deed to my house in exchange for a shot of insulin.

This is in line with capitalism and is probably not even illegal. It would, however, be seen as a dick move by just about anyone watching and is not morally justifiable.

If someone is making people better off, why does it matter if they're motivated by greed?
Motivation is irrelevant. Taking advantage of people too desperate or too crippled to offset your market leverage is considered to be immoral. Doesn't matter if you're doing it because you're greedy or because your mom told you to, price gouging in a disaster is exploiting people who aren't in a position to refuse and is a predatory -- and therefore unethical -- action.
 
We're trying to get people to change that morality believe Crazy Eddie.

You have three situations with a disaster

1) out of the goodness of your heart you bring supplies to the area and don't charge anything. We all say that's moral
2) You have or bring supplies to the area but charge higher prices for that Considered immoral
3) What most people do. Say I'll pray to Jeebus Morally neutral, socially acceptable


however 1 and 2 actually do something to improve the lives of people there while 3 does nothing. But it's #2 that's considered immoral
 
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