What's wrong with PRICE-GOUGING? during a DISASTER or any other time?

[Derec]

Anyway, back to the topic:

In parts of Texas we seem to have moved on from shortages caused by the storm to shortages caused by panic buying consumers in areas not affected by the storm.

The great gasoline shortage of 2017 is now in effect due to greedy and rapacious consumer behavior:

http://www.centraltrack.com/look-idiots-going-nuts-gas-shortage/

Does it not seem reasonable to raise the price of gasoline to the point that would result in more societally optimal behavior? Say $4 or $5 bucks per gallon?

Yes. Increasing prices would deter those who want to hoard gasoline like Mad Max situation is upon us.

Like this cowboy:

I mean, that's got to be over 1000lbs if he gets it full. Going to be fun getting it off the truck! Hope he has a forklift, even a manual one.
And that corresponds to about 200 gal. Not even with that truck getting 15 mpg will he use even half of it by the time everything goes to normal.
Actually, if his tank is the same as this one, I underestimated it a bit, as that one is 275 gal! That's 1650 lbs for the gasoline itself plus 128 lbs for the tank. But as they say, everything is bigger in Texas.

This one is not as extreme, maybe 50 gal each. And it's in two separate barrels, which makes things a bit more manageable. Still, 50 gal of gasoline is 300lbs. Not exactly handy to move.

 

[untermensche]

Yes photos from who knows where or when are always impressive.

 

[Derec]

Yes photos from who knows where or when are always impressive.

Do you have any reason to doubt their provenance? Look at the cowboy with his 275gal tank. Cowboy hat, a common fashion accessory in Dallas, Texas. Check. A Valero gas station, a common sight in Dallas. Check. And both photos have reasonably recent trucks.
But even if the photos were from another city, from another natural disaster, they still show people panic hoarding, and thus support my argument. Nobody would buy 100 or 275 gal of gasoline if the price jumped a buck.

Btw, new record holder. Got to be 400-500 gal.

 

[LordKiran]

Yes photos from who knows where or when are always impressive.

Do you have any reason to doubt their provenance? Look at the cowboy with his 275gal tank. Cowboy hat, a common fashion accessory in Dallas, Texas. Check. A Valero gas station, a common sight in Dallas. Check. And both photos have reasonably recent trucks.
But even if the photos were from another city, from another natural disaster, they still show people panic hoarding, and thus support my argument. Nobody would buy 100 or 275 gal of gasoline if the price jumped a buck.

Btw, new record holder. Got to be 400-500 gal.

You know the messed up thing is, they could be trying to resell it at profit. Alternatively they could be getting gas for a ton of people, maybe they have generators up and running caring for dozens.

 

[rousseau]

"What is wrong with making it harder for people to survive during a humanitarian disaster"

Oh.. I don't know, maybe the taking advantage of people being on the brink of death part.

 

[Derec]

You know the messed up thing is, they could be trying to resell it at profit.

All the more reasons why station prices should not artificially be kept below the market price.
That said, I wonder what markup would be required for the guy to actually make a profit. Gas stations can operate on modest margins vs. price they pay for gas because they are major operations that operate continuously. And also because they sell other things like (junk) food and drinks. A guy selling gas out of his truck for a week on the other hand ...

Alternatively they could be getting gas for a ton of people, maybe they have generators up and running caring for dozens.

This guy in the last photo has a proper commercial truck, so it is probably a business of some sort with multiple vehicles. But generators? Power in Dallas or Austin wasn't affected.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh.. I don't know, maybe the taking advantage of people being on the brink of death part.

People in Dallas are not "on the brink of death". Most are not poor either.

 

[rousseau]

All the more reasons why station prices should not artificially be kept below the market price.
That said, I wonder what markup would be required for the guy to actually make a profit. Gas stations can operate on modest margins vs. price they pay for gas because they are major operations that operate continuously. And also because they sell other things like (junk) food and drinks. A guy selling gas out of his truck for a week on the other hand ...

Alternatively they could be getting gas for a ton of people, maybe they have generators up and running caring for dozens.

This guy in the last photo has a proper commercial truck, so it is probably a business of some sort with multiple vehicles. But generators? Power in Dallas or Austin wasn't affected.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh.. I don't know, maybe the taking advantage of people being on the brink of death part.

People in Dallas are not "on the brink of death". Most are not poor either.

If your fellow country-men are struggling.. just don't be a cunt, that's all I'm saying.

 

[dismal]

Do you have any reason to doubt their provenance? Look at the cowboy with his 275gal tank. Cowboy hat, a common fashion accessory in Dallas, Texas. Check. A Valero gas station, a common sight in Dallas. Check. And both photos have reasonably recent trucks.
But even if the photos were from another city, from another natural disaster, they still show people panic hoarding, and thus support my argument. Nobody would buy 100 or 275 gal of gasoline if the price jumped a buck.

Btw, new record holder. Got to be 400-500 gal.

You know the messed up thing is, they could be trying to resell it at profit. Alternatively they could be getting gas for a ton of people, maybe they have generators up and running caring for dozens.

There was no flood in Dallas. No damage at all.

 

[LordKiran]

You know the messed up thing is, they could be trying to resell it at profit. Alternatively they could be getting gas for a ton of people, maybe they have generators up and running caring for dozens.

There was no flood in Dallas. No damage at all.

No but people are panicky an assume a largescale natural disaster will result in a shortage. So the problem is speculation.

The solution isn't to raise prices during a disaster (That's the behavior we're maligning when the citizenry do it remember)

The solution is to enforce a purchasing cap in affected areas with purchasing priority given to aid efforts.

 

[dismal]

There was no flood in Dallas. No damage at all.

No but people are panicky an assume a largescale natural disaster will result in a shortage. So the problem is speculation.

The solution isn't to raise prices during a disaster (That's the behavior we're maligning when the citizenry do it remember)

The solution is to enforce a purchasing cap in affected areas with purchasing priority given to aid efforts.

You don't seem to be getting this: Dallas is not an affected area.

There is social media fueled panic buying. Of course, it's a self fulfilling fear. Now there are shortages.

 

[LordKiran]

No but people are panicky an assume a largescale natural disaster will result in a shortage. So the problem is speculation.

The solution isn't to raise prices during a disaster (That's the behavior we're maligning when the citizenry do it remember)

The solution is to enforce a purchasing cap in affected areas with purchasing priority given to aid efforts.

You don't seem to be getting this: Dallas is not an affected area.

There is social media fueled panic buying. Of course, it's a self fulfilling fear. Now there are shortages.

No I got it, but you aren't reading my responses. If a state is hit by a largescale natural disaster, it becomes more important than ever to make sure resources are used and allocated efficiently for reasons exactly like this. Get it?

 

[dismal]

You don't seem to be getting this: Dallas is not an affected area.

There is social media fueled panic buying. Of course, it's a self fulfilling fear. Now there are shortages.

No I got it, but you aren't reading my responses. If a state is hit by a largescale natural disaster, it becomes more important than ever to make sure resources are used and allocated efficiently for reasons exactly like this. Get it?

Dallas and Houston are farther apart than New York and Washington DC. The fact they are in the same state means very little.

 

[LordKiran]

No I got it, but you aren't reading my responses. If a state is hit by a largescale natural disaster, it becomes more important than ever to make sure resources are used and allocated efficiently for reasons exactly like this. Get it?

Dallas and Houston are farther apart than New York and Washington DC. The fact they are in the same state means very little.

And the fact that this is happening in dallas tells you that the disaster is effecting dallas, so the rules should apply there as well in the short term until people calm down. Not that it matters since travelling with gasoline in an open-top container is illegal in the first place.

 

[ksen]

No I got it, but you aren't reading my responses. If a state is hit by a largescale natural disaster, it becomes more important than ever to make sure resources are used and allocated efficiently for reasons exactly like this. Get it?

Dallas and Houston are farther apart than New York and Washington DC. The fact they are in the same state means very little.

Apparently not since, you know, people in Dallas are panic buying.

 

[Derec]

And the fact that this is happening in dallas tells you that the disaster is effecting dallas,

The disaster is bringing about Dallas? That can't be right!

 

[skepticalbip]

It seems that people are arbitrarily assigning motive to these people then condemning them for it. Surely some are likely hoarding but what percentage of them? I saw a news bit yesterday of a rancher that showed up in Houston with 750 gallons of gas to donate to the civilian rescuers using their private boats because they were having a difficult time finding gas in Houston to continue their rescue efforts.

 

[Derec]

Dallas and Houston are farther apart than New York and Washington DC. The fact they are in the same state means very little.

Apparently not since, you know, people in Dallas are panic buying.

They would not be panic buying/hoarding if price was allowed to go up in response to disturbance to the equilibrium.  Le Chatelier's principle works for economics as well.

 

[Canard DuJour]

I don't think anyone particularly objects to prices rising in order to divert resources to where they're needed. What raises the moral hackles - what people mean by "price gouging" - is hugely raising the price of an existing supply in order to exploit desperate circumstances. Eg raising the price of an existing stock of bottled water from $1 to $10 or $100 per bottle.

If anyone needs it explaining to them why this elicits moral indignation, then no one is going to be able to explain it to them. In the abstract, it almost certainly has to do with our having evolved in resource-pooling social bands. Some folks genuinely, through no fault of their own, lack that moral perception, like other folks don't percieve certain colours or tastes.

 

[LordKiran]

Apparently not since, you know, people in Dallas are panic buying.

They would not be panic buying/hoarding if price was allowed to go up in response to disturbance to the equilibrium.  Le Chatelier's principle works for economics as well.

You don't know that. A rise in price could spur panic buying further for all you know.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You know the messed up thing is, they could be trying to resell it at profit. Alternatively they could be getting gas for a ton of people, maybe they have generators up and running caring for dozens.

Yeah, anything but consider the possibility that he's hoarding. Tanks like that are usually owned by people who have a use for fuel in things that don't easily drive to the gas pump--but only boats have any real use at present in the area.