When is it okay for Police to shoot fleeing "suspects"?

[Derec]

Yeah "luck".

By "luck", I meant the way he fell.

Other residents said they attempted to help the man and perform CPR but were prevented from doing so by police.

Well they did call an ambulance and it arrived within minutes. They probably prevented contact between suspect and bystanders for security reasons.

Curious about medical facts though: would CPR help with fall-related injuries anyway?

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I got stopped by the police as a fleeing suspect. According to the police I spotted them, and fled the scene, tucking something into my waistband. According to me, I was late for a train, and didn't see them at all. The only thing I tucked into my waistband was my shirt. Fortunately, I'm white, and don't live in a country where bullets are used as a substitute for policework.

If you want to live in a country where the police are allowed to kill you if you act in a way they find suspicious, then you're welcome to. Just don't pretend you're living in a free country.

This kid wasn't running to catch a train.

 

[Togo]

I got stopped by the police as a fleeing suspect. According to the police I spotted them, and fled the scene, tucking something into my waistband. According to me, I was late for a train, and didn't see them at all. The only thing I tucked into my waistband was my shirt. Fortunately, I'm white, and don't live in a country where bullets are used as a substitute for policework.

If you want to live in a country where the police are allowed to kill you if you act in a way they find suspicious, then you're welcome to. Just don't pretend you're living in a free country.

This kid wasn't running to catch a train.

According to the police, nor was I.

 

[ksen]

How so?

Because them being armed puts the public in danger.

I agree with derec that the police being armed puts the public in danger.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

By "luck", I meant the way he fell.

Other residents said they attempted to help the man and perform CPR but were prevented from doing so by police.

Well they did call an ambulance and it arrived within minutes. They probably prevented contact between suspect and bystanders for security reasons.

Because a non-responsive, non-breathing man is a big threat.

Curious about medical facts though: would CPR help with fall-related injuries anyway?

Was there a physician on the scene to declare him dead? If not, it doesn't matter and you give CPR until the medics get there or you drop from exhaustion. The police are trained to do this.

 

[Keith&Co.]

If a person is running from the police, WHAT would have to be present or true to make shooting toward that feeling person reasonable?

A crime.

Flight is not going to be sufficient to justify shooting in and of itself, not with most Conditions of Deadly Force. Deadly Force such as the use of a firearm is only going to be justified in self defense, defense of others, prevention of violent crimes or to prevent the escape of those suspected of having committed or attempted to commit the violent crimes.

You can't shoot someone for shoplifting a box of cigarettes or shoot the suspect of the same if he's fleeing the scene. At least, that's what most official Deadly Force lists are going to say.

The way most of them are written, someone pretty much has to be dead, or at least the bad guy's had one free shot to prove it's a gun, not a toy, before you can all in an airstrike.

 

[Toni]

Tennessee v. Garner
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985)[1], was a case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that, under the Fourth Amendment, when a law enforcement officer is pursuing a fleeing suspect, he or she may not use deadly force to prevent escape unless "the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_v._Garner

You do realize officers pursuing fleeing suspects some time have to make split second decisions, most times not under the best of condidtions.

It is easy to make a moral judgement after all the facts / evidence has come to light.

While you use an age to illicit an emotional response for a 14 yr old child, what did that child look like??

Was he rather large for his size such as he could have been mistaken for an adult??

My thoughts would be if suspects did not flee, they would not get shot.

Why is it so hard to comply??

In the case of Tamir Rice, he wasn't fleeing anyone or anything. And his gun was a 'gun.' A toy.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of suspects or sometimes 'suspects' who get shot while not fleeing or resisting anything.

 

[ronburgundy]

Because them being armed puts the public in danger.

So, somebody simply having a gun makes them a danger to the public?

Unless its in a legal hunting or gun-range context, someone with a unsecured gun in a public place who is fleeing the cops is, with near certainty, in the act of a violent armed crime, and thus a lethal threat to the public.

Imagine a white guy with a handgun walking toward a black church. He flees from the cops and they refused to shoot, thus letting him get away. A week later, he returns and kills 9 black people in the church. The national protest from all those currently attacking cops for shooting fleeing suspects would be that the cops should have shot him but didn't because they don't think #black lives matter.

That said, greater use of rubber bullets seems like a ideal solution to stopping such clear threats when the perp is not actively attacking the officers or another person.

 

[ksen]

So, somebody simply having a gun makes them a danger to the public?

Unless its in a legal hunting or gun-range context, someone with a unsecured gun in a public place who is fleeing the cops is, with near certainty, in the act of a violent armed crime, and thus a lethal threat to the public.

Imagine a white guy with a handgun walking toward a black church. He flees from the cops and they refused to shoot, thus letting him get away. A week later, he returns and kills 9 black people in the church. The national protest from all those currently attacking cops for shooting fleeing suspects would be that the cops should have shot him but didn't because they don't think #black lives matter.

That said, greater use of rubber bullets seems like a ideal solution to stopping such clear threats when the perp is not actively attacking the officers or another person.

You mean like how the police shot and killed all those white Oath Keepers out at Cliven Bundy's ranch for aiming their loaded weapons at federal agents?

Or maybe the Oath Keepers didn't get shot because they didn't run, they stood their ground aiming at the federal agents and that's why the police didn't shoot them?

 

[Derec]

Do you think this one was justified?
Protests Erupt After St. Louis Officers Fatally Shoot Mansur Ball-Bey
Protesters don't think so.

 

[Derec]

Or maybe the Oath Keepers didn't get shot because they didn't run, they stood their ground aiming at the federal agents and that's why the police didn't shoot them?

Perhaps because the agents didn't see them?
But I do think the feds should have handled the Bundy situation more forcefully.

 

[DrDoomNGloom]

The police say lots of things that turn out to not be true.

Why should we give them the benefit of the doubt?

Shy should we give criminals the benefit of the doubt.

The police in my case have much more credibility.

If you don't engage in criminal activities then the busy police have much more important task than just racial harassment.

We pay them to deal with criminals, don't you want your monies worth??

 

[DrDoomNGloom]

Tennessee v. Garner
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985)[1], was a case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that, under the Fourth Amendment, when a law enforcement officer is pursuing a fleeing suspect, he or she may not use deadly force to prevent escape unless "the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_v._Garner

You do realize officers pursuing fleeing suspects some time have to make split second decisions, most times not under the best of condidtions.

It is easy to make a moral judgement after all the facts / evidence has come to light.

While you use an age to illicit an emotional response for a 14 yr old child, what did that child look like??

Was he rather large for his size such as he could have been mistaken for an adult??

My thoughts would be if suspects did not flee, they would not get shot.

Why is it so hard to comply??

In the case of Tamir Rice, he wasn't fleeing anyone or anything. And his gun was a 'gun.' A toy.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of suspects or sometimes 'suspects' who get shot while not fleeing or resisting anything.

Shooting of Tamir Rice
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The shooting of Tamir Rice, a 12-year-old boy (born June 25, 2002 - died November 22, 2014), occurred on November 22, 2014, in Cleveland, Ohio. Two police officers, 26-year-old Timothy Loehmann and 46-year-old Frank Garmback, responded after receiving a police dispatch call "of a male black sitting on a swing and pointing a gun at people" in a city park.[1][2][3] A caller reported that a male was pointing "a pistol" at random people in the Cudell Recreation Center. At the beginning of the call and again in the middle he says of the pistol "it's probably fake".[4] Toward the end of the two minute call, the caller stated "he is probably a juvenile."[5] The officers reported that upon their arrival, Rice reached towards a gun in his waistband. Loehmann fired two shots before the zone car came to a halt[6] and within two seconds of arriving on the scene,[7] hitting Rice once in the torso.[2][8] Neither officer administered any first aid to the child after the shooting.[21] He died on the following day.[9]

Rice's gun was later found to be an Airsoft replica, though lacking the orange safety feature signifying that the gun is not real.[10][11] A surveillance video of the shooting was released by police four days later, on November 26.[12] On June 3, the County Sheriff's Office released a statement in which they declared their investigation to be completed and that they had turned their findings over to the county prosecutor, who will review the report and decide whether to present evidence to a grand jury.[13]
['Snip]

So he had a play gun with the orange barrel plug removed.

Someone calls 911 to report an youth pointing a gun at people in the park.

The officers show up and the kid reaches for his waist ban .............

Why do you folks always want that first shot before you get what's coming??

What if you kill one of those fine officers with that first shot??

So you folks assume no responsibilities to educate or teach respect for police??

No personal responsibilities at all, let's just blame the terrorist in blue ..................

 

[Tom Sawyer]

The police say lots of things that turn out to not be true.

Why should we give them the benefit of the doubt?

Shy should we give criminals the benefit of the doubt.

The police in my case have much more credibility.

If you don't engage in criminal activities then the busy police have much more important task than just racial harassment.

We pay them to deal with criminals, don't you want your monies worth??

Shooting people involves a lot of paperwork and takes cops off the streets to focus on that.

Don't you want the police out there protecting society against criminals rather than filling out forms?

 

[DrDoomNGloom]

Shy should we give criminals the benefit of the doubt.

The police in my case have much more credibility.

If you don't engage in criminal activities then the busy police have much more important task than just racial harassment.

We pay them to deal with criminals, don't you want your monies worth??

Shooting people involves a lot of paperwork and takes cops off the streets to focus on that.

Don't you want the police out there protecting society against criminals rather than filling out forms?

Priorities, criminals first, paper work second.....................

 

[ksen]

The police say lots of things that turn out to not be true.

Why should we give them the benefit of the doubt?

Shy should we give criminals the benefit of the doubt.

The police in my case have much more credibility.

If you don't engage in criminal activities then the busy police have much more important task than just racial harassment.

We pay them to deal with criminals, don't you want your monies worth??

Poe spotted!

 

[DrDoomNGloom]

Shy should we give criminals the benefit of the doubt.

The police in my case have much more credibility.

If you don't engage in criminal activities then the busy police have much more important task than just racial harassment.

We pay them to deal with criminals, don't you want your monies worth??

Poe spotted!

Criminal spotted .......

 

[ksen]

Do you think this one was justified?
Protests Erupt After St. Louis Officers Fatally Shoot Mansur Ball-Bey
Protesters don't think so.

So?

All we have is a statement from the officers that Bey pointed a gun at them while fleeing. I'm not going to automatically believe them because police officers have been found to lie quite often in situations like this.

You're fleeing the police. I assume by the act of fleeing you are trying to get away as quickly as possible. If you are trying to get away as quickly as possible why take the time to slow down, turn around and point a gun at the people you are running from?

Maybe it was that low negro iq kicking in?

 

[Derec]

All we have is a statement from the officers that Bey pointed a gun at them while fleeing. I'm not going to automatically believe them because police officers have been found to lie quite often in situations like this.

So you'd rather believe criminals?

You're fleeing the police. I assume by the act of fleeing you are trying to get away as quickly as possible. If you are trying to get away as quickly as possible why take the time to slow down, turn around and point a gun at the people you are running from?

Maybe he thought disabling those that were pursuing him would aid his escape.

Maybe it was that low negro iq kicking in?

And yet another tired old use of the race card.

 

[DrDoomNGloom]

The St. Louis teen whose death by police sparked violent protests Wednesday night was supposed to start college soon and was a victim of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, his family and friends said.

Mansur Ball-Bey, 18, was shot after police say he tried to run during the execution of a search warrant and pointed a stolen gun with an extended magazine at two cops.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...-police-not-criminal-family-article-1.2331863

I am sure this is another of those good christan boys who simply needed to stop by the dope house before he went on to church ...............

 

[ksen]

All we have is a statement from the officers that Bey pointed a gun at them while fleeing. I'm not going to automatically believe them because police officers have been found to lie quite often in situations like this.

So you'd rather believe criminals?

Not automatically believing the cops =/= automatically believing the other party

You're fleeing the police. I assume by the act of fleeing you are trying to get away as quickly as possible. If you are trying to get away as quickly as possible why take the time to slow down, turn around and point a gun at the people you are running from?

Maybe he thought disabling those that were pursuing him would aid his escape.

How's he going to disable his pursuers by not firing at them?