• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

When is it okay for Police to shoot fleeing "suspects"?

So post # 42 you claim that is why YOU became a cop ..................

Now post #50 you state you work with the police department, You HAVE a GOOD COP, is he a pet?? What do you feed him?? How do you train him??

So now which is it, you ARE A COP or YOU WORK WITH COPS??

If you took more time to read what was posted, and perhaps spent a little less time trying to be clever (something that you appear to be much less good at than you imagine), then you would know the answer to this question.

(Hint - Punctuation is important, look for quotation marks).
 
Do you think Dylan Roof should have been shot by the cops if they had seen him walking down the street with his handgun and he fled toward the church when they confronted him?

IF yes, then you agree that shooting fleeing suspects, even prior to them committing a crime is sometimes acceptable.

Whoa, wait!

Did you just argue in favor of killing people because they might commit a crime in the future? I think we need to at least read the Minority Report before we condemn people to death for not-yet-committed crimes, don't you?

South Carolina is not an open carry state, so the police would have had reason to pursue and arrest Roof if they saw that he was armed. But simply shooting him as he ran would have been an unjustified use of force.
 
The police are saying the police are too shooty:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...ics&utm_hp_ref=politics&kvcommref=mostpopular

Many recent controversial police shootings could have been avoided, even though they may have been legally justifiable, according to a report issued by a top law enforcement organization this week.

The Police Executive Research Forum, a research and policy group whose members include commanders from the largest U.S. police departments, said officers generally receive far too little training in de-escalating conflict and often are embedded in a culture that encourages them to rapidly resort to physical force.

Many recent high-profile police shootings have been legally justified, but there are sometimes "missed opportunities to ratchet down the encounter, to slow things down, to call in additional resources," Chuck Wexler, executive director of the group, wrote in the report.
 
It's quite simple.

Grown men are expected to take additional risks to save the lives of children. This is an accepted cultural norm. I find it sad indeed that this must be explained in this age.

While yes, occasionally children become dangerous criminals or combatants, and yes, occasionally they must be killed, the idea that adults can wantonly shoot them without even attempting some other course of action is simply unmanly, and speaks volumes of american culture, which has turned cowardice into a superpower. The USA is a nation that any act of violence can be excused by saying 'I was in fear of my life.' Thus a coward has the right to kill, where the brave person does not. It is a norm that encourages cowardice, violence, distrust, racism, and dehumanization, all for the benefit of state power and gun lobby profits. So much for the land of the free and home of the brave.

And the worst part is that so many people don't even stop to think about it.

Also, another thing I shouldn't have to remind you of, but apparently do: suspect being reported as 'armed and dangerous' by a call in. Call ins are often not accurate, and the officer on the scene absolutely should be able to see the situation and make critical judgements rapidly and with an open mind, rather than acting according to preconceptions that may very well be false. As an example, recall that lad in Cincinatti, Tamir Rice, who was shot and killed as he played in a park with a toy gun, by an officer who had been told that there was a person 'with a gun' in the park. Because he had been primed with false information, and was a poor officer with many prejudices, tragedy ensued. A more observant and open minded officer might have seen and acted differently. This is why officers need to be trained to stop and LOOK, and SEE what is really there. Observation is a skill that can be trained. And yes, with training it can be done very quickly. That is what I am saying.

If we had well trained officers who stopped to think before grabbing their guns, we'd have fewer incidents, and more trust in the officers in the rare conditions where they did need to use force. Instead, we have ill trained yahoos going around pulling their guns first because THAT is what they are trained to do, instead of looking and thinking and actually defending the public. And we have people like you to thank for it.

It is not at all uncommon for minors involved in violent crime associated with gang activity to be tried and convicted as adults. They don't always get 'juvenile detention', sometimes they go to prison.
Also, you introduce a different problem.. the problem that there is even such a thing as a 'toy gun'. As others have pointed out in this thread, it is very easy to say, "it was a toy gun so the cop was wrong", when hindsight is 20/20. How many nanoseconds does it take to pull a 'real' trigger? That is how much time you have to determine a course of action. How many nanoseconds did it take you to consider YOUR response to this? how many nanoseconds did YOU spend assessing the information that was available and the scene as seen by the cop? My guess is that you would have been shot dead years ago with the approach you take. Good thing you're not a cop; we wouldn't have the opportunity to share our ideas with each other, since you would be dead.
 
It's quite simple.

Grown men are expected to take additional risks to save the lives of children. This is an accepted cultural norm. I find it sad indeed that this must be explained in this age.

While yes, occasionally children become dangerous criminals or combatants, and yes, occasionally they must be killed, the idea that adults can wantonly shoot them without even attempting some other course of action is simply unmanly, and speaks volumes of american culture, which has turned cowardice into a superpower. The USA is a nation that any act of violence can be excused by saying 'I was in fear of my life.' Thus a coward has the right to kill, where the brave person does not. It is a norm that encourages cowardice, violence, distrust, racism, and dehumanization, all for the benefit of state power and gun lobby profits. So much for the land of the free and home of the brave.

And the worst part is that so many people don't even stop to think about it.

Also, another thing I shouldn't have to remind you of, but apparently do: suspect being reported as 'armed and dangerous' by a call in. Call ins are often not accurate, and the officer on the scene absolutely should be able to see the situation and make critical judgements rapidly and with an open mind, rather than acting according to preconceptions that may very well be false. As an example, recall that lad in Cincinatti, Tamir Rice, who was shot and killed as he played in a park with a toy gun, by an officer who had been told that there was a person 'with a gun' in the park. Because he had been primed with false information, and was a poor officer with many prejudices, tragedy ensued. A more observant and open minded officer might have seen and acted differently. This is why officers need to be trained to stop and LOOK, and SEE what is really there. Observation is a skill that can be trained. And yes, with training it can be done very quickly. That is what I am saying.

If we had well trained officers who stopped to think before grabbing their guns, we'd have fewer incidents, and more trust in the officers in the rare conditions where they did need to use force. Instead, we have ill trained yahoos going around pulling their guns first because THAT is what they are trained to do, instead of looking and thinking and actually defending the public. And we have people like you to thank for it.

It is not at all uncommon for minors involved in violent crime associated with gang activity to be tried and convicted as adults. They don't always get 'juvenile detention', sometimes they go to prison.
Also, you introduce a different problem.. the problem that there is even such a thing as a 'toy gun'. As others have pointed out in this thread, it is very easy to say, "it was a toy gun so the cop was wrong", when hindsight is 20/20. How many nanoseconds does it take to pull a 'real' trigger? That is how much time you have to determine a course of action. How many nanoseconds did it take you to consider YOUR response to this? how many nanoseconds did YOU spend assessing the information that was available and the scene as seen by the cop? My guess is that you would have been shot dead years ago with the approach you take. Good thing you're not a cop; we wouldn't have the opportunity to share our ideas with each other, since you would be dead.

But is the "toy gun" actually pointed at someone? Is this really an immediate threat?

And the cops I know have been trained to assess the situation and use restraint. One likes to tell the story where he almost shot and killed a guy, but let it play out until the situation deescalated. He is very proud of this situation.
 
Last edited:
Bullshit. Its more dangerous to be a trash collector in the USA than a policeman. And there are plenty of other countries that have much, much lower crime rates, less harsh justice systems and where officers rarely use their weapons. If your bullshit were true, these countries would be lawless hellholes with heaps of dead policemen because they hesitated to use their weapons. That is not the case, and your bullshit is just bullshit. The problems of the USA are not normal. They are the product of our specific system, where police officers are untrained, police organizations have been inifiltrated by white supremacists, and where guns are so common that people jump to the conclusion that anything that looks vaguely like a gun actually IS a gun. The problem is not toy guns, it is real guns.

So quit with you fucking scaremongering and bullshit. I've spoken to dozens of policemen who have gone their entire careers without firing their weapon or having a weapon fired at them. Life is not like a movie. There are not gangs everywhere. Officers are not being shot at every time they leave the station. There are problems to be sure, but its people like you who turn them into some sort of sick fantasy where our country is a kill-or-be-killed wasteland where your fellow Americans are the enemy. I am not stupid enough to believe your unamerican, racist bullshit, so you might as well stop it.
 
Do you think Dylan Roof should have been shot by the cops if they had seen him walking down the street with his handgun and he fled toward the church when they confronted him?

IF yes, then you agree that shooting fleeing suspects, even prior to them committing a crime is sometimes acceptable.

Whoa, wait!

Did you just argue in favor of killing people because they might commit a crime in the future?

No, I argued for using necessary force to stop a person attempting to commit a violent crime. By definition, if they "attempting" then the actual crime is in the future.
Driving a van-bomb toward Freedom tower is not itself a violent action. Maybe it is part of a performance art piece and the drivers refuse to stop when commanded is all part of the act. Yet all sane people would support use of lethal force to stop the person. That support is 100% based upon preventing their future violence that the facts of the situation make highly likely he is intending to commit.

I think we need to at least read the Minority Report before we condemn people to death for not-yet-committed crimes, don't you?

I think we need to apply an ounce of rational honesty to the actual real world and what current crime prevention supported by you and most people actually entails, rather than making false analogies to paranoid supernatural sci-fi thrillers. Unless you think that cops should never use lethal force to stop people from attempting to commit a violent crime or terrorist act such my van-bomb example, then your "Minority Report" comment is as disingenuous at best.



South Carolina is not an open carry state, so the police would have had reason to pursue and arrest Roof if they saw that he was armed. But simply shooting him as he ran would have been an unjustified use of force.

No it wouldn't. The combination of him being armed outside of any legal context, and him fleeing when approached by the cops is clear evidence to any rational person of his intent to commit a violent crime with that weapon. Combined with him running toward a group of people, this makes him a highly probable threat to them.
Most violent crimes, including terrorist acts, have periods prior to the actual violence in which the person is engaged in actions that are not themselves violent crimes but strong evidence of being in the process of trying to commit one.
Again, a man with a knife says "I am going to kill those kids". Nothing he has done yet is actually illegal. He then runs towards those kids, which is also not illegal. The cops command him to stop and he doesn't, which is illegal but not a violent crime and maybe he didn't hear them. The cops then shoot him. They have killed him based entirely upon their reasonable inference that he intended to commit a violent crime with his weapon and were trying to prevent that future crime.
Do you oppose any use of lethal force to stop this man from reaching those kids? If not, then you contradict your own "argument".

I look forward to you refusing to answer this simple question, because any answer you give will expose either the absurd extremism of your position on law enforcement and disregard for public safety, or the hypocrisy of your argument.
 
No, I argued for using necessary force to stop a person attempting to commit a violent crime. By definition, if they "attempting" then the actual crime is in the future.
No you aren't. You are talking about stopping a crime before it has started, ie at the point of ingress into the crime (driving to it).

To stop someone on the way to the crime, you have to know they are to commit it. This happens a lot in television programs. Not so much in the real world.

Driving a van-bomb toward Freedom tower is not itself a violent action.
And unless the van has a window sign saying "Caution: Van Bomb on board" we are to know they have a bomb because...?
I think we need to apply an ounce of rational honesty to the actual real world and what current crime prevention supported by you and most people actually entails, rather than making false analogies to paranoid supernatural sci-fi thrillers. Unless you think that cops should never use lethal force to stop people from attempting to commit a violent crime or terrorist act such my van-bomb example, then your "Minority Report" comment is as disingenuous at best.
It seems hypocritical of you to assert that Arctish would be against stopping an imminent terrorist attack or murder. What Arctish is actually arguing and what you are hand waving is the HOW to determine the insight of a crime about to be committed.

South Carolina is not an open carry state, so the police would have had reason to pursue and arrest Roof if they saw that he was armed. But simply shooting him as he ran would have been an unjustified use of force.
No it wouldn't.
According to the Constitution, it really is.
The combination of him being armed outside of any legal context, and him fleeing when approached by the cops is clear evidence to any rational person of his intent to commit a violent crime with that weapon.
Or he is trying to get away and not be arrested for open-carry. What makes all of this even more ridiculous is the imminence of a crime that warrants such police violence.

You argument presumes that the violent act will take place so soon, that immediate killing of the perpetrator of the alleged crime to be much occur. But killing/shooting a suspect isn't the only way to capture a suspect. I can agree that people who are armed can be said to be statistically more likely to commit a crime at some point, but the only reason to kill a suspect is if there is imminent danger to the surrounding community, not just something down the road in a few months.

Again, a man with a knife says "I am going to kill those kids". Nothing he has done yet is actually illegal. He then runs towards those kids, which is also not illegal. The cops command him to stop and he doesn't, which is illegal but not a violent crime and maybe he didn't hear them. The cops then shoot him. They have killed him based entirely upon their reasonable inference that he intended to commit a violent crime with his weapon and were trying to prevent that future crime.
And your hypothetical is most likely never going to happen. Real life is almost never that clear cut.
 
Because them being armed puts the public in danger.
What?? According to the NRA, everyone should be armed!! It's our god given right...blah blah blah.....for safety. Or are you saying being BLACK and armed is the problem?

I'm at work, so I can't search for YouTube videos right now, but there's one I saw once where they wanted to test the police reaction to someone walking down the street with an assault rifle. A white guy did it and a cop pulled up and asked him what he was doing and the guy answered "I'm exercising my constitutional rights" and continued walking after a short and polite conversation.

Then they had a black guy walk down the street with the rifle and a cop jumped out of his car, pointed his gun at him and told him to drop the weapon. The black guy responded "I'm exercising my consti ... " "GET THE FUCK DOWN ON THE GROUND NOW!!!". Then about five other cop cars rolled up and they all jumped out with weapons drawn and they arrested the black guy.
 
Do you think this one was justified?
Protests Erupt After St. Louis Officers Fatally Shoot Mansur Ball-Bey
Protesters don't think so.

And forensic evidence is now contradicting the police version:

The results of the autopsy show Ball-Bey was struck in the upper right part of his back by a bullet that hit his heart and an artery next to the heart, said St. Louis Chief Medical Examiner Michael Graham.

That and other findings from the autopsy appear to contradict the account of the incident given by police, who said that two officers shot at Ball-Bey when he pointed a gun at them as he fled a home where police were serving a search warrant. Police said that Ball-Bey dropped his weapon and continued running after he was shot.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/08/21/us-usa-police-missouri-idUSKCN0QQ1GD20150821
 
So post # 42 you claim that is why YOU became a cop ..................

Now post #50 you state you work with the police department, You HAVE a GOOD COP, is he a pet?? What do you feed him?? How do you train him??

So now which is it, you ARE A COP or YOU WORK WITH COPS??

Yeah, punctuation is important. I wrote,
I have always assumed that a good cop would think, "I would rather take a bullet than kill an innocent bystander. That's why I became a cop, to protect the people who should NOT be getting shot."

I have always assumed a good cop would think the thing that is contained in quotes.

and then I wrote:
I work directly with the police department here so, yeah. I have a good cop and this is the attitude of my cop. We are in complete agreement. It's a healthy attitude. He uses his brain - he has a good one.

I am the supervisor of a police department.
It contains one cop.
He's a great guy. The last one was a good guy, too.
I have been fighting to preserve his job for a decade against people who want to close the police department.
I make sure he gets a salary and enough funding to keep his training.
We talk together about policing strategy and what we want the flavor of the Police presence to be in our town.
When I interview applicants for our police department, I look for the kind of attitude that includes planning to SERVE the population, not control it. If the applicant appears to be scared of the resident population and ready to kill them rather than put himself at any risk, I won't be hiring that guy.

I have a good cop. He uses his brain. He has a good one.

You should, as bilby suggests, spend less time trying to be clever and more time cleverly listening and reflecting on what is said.
 
What?? According to the NRA, everyone should be armed!! It's our god given right...blah blah blah.....for safety. Or are you saying being BLACK and armed is the problem?

I'm at work, so I can't search for YouTube videos right now, but there's one I saw once where they wanted to test the police reaction to someone walking down the street with an assault rifle. A white guy did it and a cop pulled up and asked him what he was doing and the guy answered "I'm exercising my constitutional rights" and continued walking after a short and polite conversation.

Then they had a black guy walk down the street with the rifle and a cop jumped out of his car, pointed his gun at him and told him to drop the weapon. The black guy responded "I'm exercising my consti ... " "GET THE FUCK DOWN ON THE GROUND NOW!!!". Then about five other cop cars rolled up and they all jumped out with weapons drawn and they arrested the black guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXrh6wAxJlw
 
And there's your sign.
People who are white still wonder why people who are black would run from teh police when they "haven't done anything wrong"?
 
Bullshit. Its more dangerous to be a trash collector in the USA than a policeman.

On average, 60,000 officers are criminally assaulted each year while performing their duties, with about 12,000 assaults using a weapon. That doesn't count the officers assaulted multiple times, which could easily put the total instances of assault on officers closer to 90,000 per year. There are 900,000 sworn officers in the US, and about 1/3 of those are largely desk cops or work in areas like courts, or other government buildings, etc.. That means among the patrol officers who respond to calls, etc.. and get almost all the assaults, there is is about 4 assaults for every 30 officers per year. Sounds pretty dangerous. The fact that many don't get seriously hurt or that there are not more assaults is directly due to the cops being trained to defend themselves and that they armed and do sometimes use their guns.
This also does not include any other serious injuries not directly caused by assaults, but by random accidents on duty, or accidents while pursuing or restraining a suspect.

In addition, cops get hurt in situations where the high probability of injury is predictable and not a random accident but the intentional acts of perps. That is starkly different than professions where all injuries are random and largely unpredictable accidents that you cannot defend against.

In addition, for every actual assault or injury, each cop encounters hundreds of situations per year where they are interacting with people where violence is highly plausible, people who either have in the past or are or appear likely to currently engage in violence. Nearly every single arrest even for non-violent infractions is an act of physical aggression in which they are restraining people physically against their will. IOW, all arrests entail physical encounters with people who an incentive to fight back, and a large % of arrests are of people who also have a disposition toward physical confrontation. In every such situation, even if only a small % actually entail such aggression against the cop, they inherently are and should be mentally prepared for it and anticipating their response should it occur. No other profession come anywhere near that type of constant need to prepare for a potential physical confrontation or threat of violence. Thus, your reliance on mere injury stats is completely invalid as a basis to evaluate either the actual danger cops face but the more relevant mental readiness for danger and violence inherent to encountering the type of dangers they face.



And there are plenty of other countries that have much, much lower crime rates, less harsh justice systems and where officers rarely use their weapons.
Um, sure, but how does cops using less force in countries with fewer violent criminals and much much fewer armed criminals support your claim that US cops who encounter far more criminals and more weapons should use less force?
You are ignoring the fact that crimes are not primarily caused by the actions of the cops in response to (and after) the commission of the crimes.



If your bullshit were true, these countries would be lawless hellholes with heaps of dead policemen because they hesitated to use their weapons.
Um no. That only follows if the sole causal determinant of crimes and especially use of weapons in crimes was how the cops respond to the crimes. No one but you is making that absurd assumption.


The problems of the USA are not normal.

Correct. We have an abnormal number of people that are armed with lethal weapons and ready and willing to use them against others, including cops. The cause of this problem is NOT that the US cops are especially brutal.


They are the product of our specific system, where police officers are untrained, police organizations have been inifiltrated by white supremacists, and where guns are so common that people jump to the conclusion that anything that looks vaguely like a gun actually IS a gun. The problem is not toy guns, it is real guns.

This underlined part is the only valid part of your post. But it isn't just the prevalence of guns in general, but especially among the people that US cops encounter every day and in the neighborhoods that cops patrol due to high crime rates. IOW, US cops have very rational based expectations and thus fears about encountering criminals with guns.

There is also the problem that ex-military are invading police ranks in unprecedented numbers and being given special affirmative-action style treatment (i.e. hired when unqualified). They will tend to react to threats with more aggression and less de-escalation efforts. That is also a problem, but especially so because cops do in fact encounter real physical threats and dangerous situations on a daily basis, which brings their reactions to threats into play.
 
On average, 60,000 officers are criminally assaulted each year while performing their duties, with about 12,000 assaults using a weapon. That doesn't count the officers assaulted multiple times, which could easily put the total instances of assault on officers closer to 90,000 per year. There are 900,000 sworn officers in the US, and about 1/3 of those are largely desk cops or work in areas like courts, or other government buildings, etc.. That means among the patrol officers who respond to calls, etc.. and get almost all the assaults, there is is about 4 assaults for every 30 officers per year. Sounds pretty dangerous. The fact that many don't get seriously hurt or that there are not more assaults is directly due to the cops being trained to defend themselves and that they armed and do sometimes use their guns.
This also does not include any other serious injuries not directly caused by assaults, but by random accidents on duty, or accidents while pursuing or restraining a suspect.

In addition, cops get hurt in situations where the high probability of injury is predictable and not a random accident but the intentional acts of perps. That is starkly different than professions where all injuries are random and largely unpredictable accidents that you cannot defend against.

In addition, for every actual assault or injury, each cop encounters hundreds of situations per year where they are interacting with people where violence is highly plausible, people who either have in the past or are or appear likely to currently engage in violence. Nearly every single arrest even for non-violent infractions is an act of physical aggression in which they are restraining people physically against their will. IOW, all arrests entail physical encounters with people who an incentive to fight back, and a large % of arrests are of people who also have a disposition toward physical confrontation. In every such situation, even if only a small % actually entail such aggression against the cop, they inherently are and should be mentally prepared for it and anticipating their response should it occur. No other profession come anywhere near that type of constant need to prepare for a potential physical confrontation or threat of violence. Thus, your reliance on mere injury stats is completely invalid as a basis to evaluate either the actual danger cops face but the more relevant mental readiness for danger and violence inherent to encountering the type of dangers they face.

...

Oh, so less dangerous than being a woman.
Well all righty then.
 
On average, 60,000 officers are criminally assaulted each year while performing their duties, with about 12,000 assaults using a weapon. That doesn't count the officers assaulted multiple times, which could easily put the total instances of assault on officers closer to 90,000 per year. There are 900,000 sworn officers in the US, and about 1/3 of those are largely desk cops or work in areas like courts, or other government buildings, etc.. That means among the patrol officers who respond to calls, etc.. and get almost all the assaults, there is is about 4 assaults for every 30 officers per year. Sounds pretty dangerous. The fact that many don't get seriously hurt or that there are not more assaults is directly due to the cops being trained to defend themselves and that they armed and do sometimes use their guns.
This also does not include any other serious injuries not directly caused by assaults, but by random accidents on duty, or accidents while pursuing or restraining a suspect.

In addition, cops get hurt in situations where the high probability of injury is predictable and not a random accident but the intentional acts of perps. That is starkly different than professions where all injuries are random and largely unpredictable accidents that you cannot defend against.

In addition, for every actual assault or injury, each cop encounters hundreds of situations per year where they are interacting with people where violence is highly plausible, people who either have in the past or are or appear likely to currently engage in violence. Nearly every single arrest even for non-violent infractions is an act of physical aggression in which they are restraining people physically against their will. IOW, all arrests entail physical encounters with people who an incentive to fight back, and a large % of arrests are of people who also have a disposition toward physical confrontation. In every such situation, even if only a small % actually entail such aggression against the cop, they inherently are and should be mentally prepared for it and anticipating their response should it occur. No other profession come anywhere near that type of constant need to prepare for a potential physical confrontation or threat of violence. Thus, your reliance on mere injury stats is completely invalid as a basis to evaluate either the actual danger cops face but the more relevant mental readiness for danger and violence inherent to encountering the type of dangers they face.
And yet, cop doesn't even make the TOP 10 for 'dangerous job' in this country. Oh and do you have a link for your statistic?
 
On average, 60,000 officers are criminally assaulted each year while performing their duties, with about 12,000 assaults using a weapon. That doesn't count the officers assaulted multiple times, which could easily put the total instances of assault on officers closer to 90,000 per year. There are 900,000 sworn officers in the US, and about 1/3 of those are largely desk cops or work in areas like courts, or other government buildings, etc.. That means among the patrol officers who respond to calls, etc.. and get almost all the assaults, there is is about 4 assaults for every 30 officers per year. Sounds pretty dangerous. The fact that many don't get seriously hurt or that there are not more assaults is directly due to the cops being trained to defend themselves and that they armed and do sometimes use their guns.
This also does not include any other serious injuries not directly caused by assaults, but by random accidents on duty, or accidents while pursuing or restraining a suspect.

In addition, cops get hurt in situations where the high probability of injury is predictable and not a random accident but the intentional acts of perps. That is starkly different than professions where all injuries are random and largely unpredictable accidents that you cannot defend against.

In addition, for every actual assault or injury, each cop encounters hundreds of situations per year where they are interacting with people where violence is highly plausible, people who either have in the past or are or appear likely to currently engage in violence. Nearly every single arrest even for non-violent infractions is an act of physical aggression in which they are restraining people physically against their will. IOW, all arrests entail physical encounters with people who an incentive to fight back, and a large % of arrests are of people who also have a disposition toward physical confrontation. In every such situation, even if only a small % actually entail such aggression against the cop, they inherently are and should be mentally prepared for it and anticipating their response should it occur. No other profession come anywhere near that type of constant need to prepare for a potential physical confrontation or threat of violence. Thus, your reliance on mere injury stats is completely invalid as a basis to evaluate either the actual danger cops face but the more relevant mental readiness for danger and violence inherent to encountering the type of dangers they face.
And yet, cop doesn't even make the TOP 10 for 'dangerous job' in this country. Oh and do you have a link for your statistic?

For example a cab drive is much more likely to be assaulted. And more likely to be a victim of homicide.
 
Whoa, wait!

Did you just argue in favor of killing people because they might commit a crime in the future?

No, I argued for using necessary force to stop a person attempting to commit a violent crime. By definition, if they "attempting" then the actual crime is in the future.
Driving a van-bomb toward Freedom tower is not itself a violent action. Maybe it is part of a performance art piece and the drivers refuse to stop when commanded is all part of the act. Yet all sane people would support use of lethal force to stop the person. That support is 100% based upon preventing their future violence that the facts of the situation make highly likely he is intending to commit.

I think we need to at least read the Minority Report before we condemn people to death for not-yet-committed crimes, don't you?

I think we need to apply an ounce of rational honesty to the actual real world and what current crime prevention supported by you and most people actually entails, rather than making false analogies to paranoid supernatural sci-fi thrillers. Unless you think that cops should never use lethal force to stop people from attempting to commit a violent crime or terrorist act such my van-bomb example, then your "Minority Report" comment is as disingenuous at best.



South Carolina is not an open carry state, so the police would have had reason to pursue and arrest Roof if they saw that he was armed. But simply shooting him as he ran would have been an unjustified use of force.

No it wouldn't. The combination of him being armed outside of any legal context, and him fleeing when approached by the cops is clear evidence to any rational person of his intent to commit a violent crime with that weapon. Combined with him running toward a group of people, this makes him a highly probable threat to them.

Jimmy Higgins already addressed this by making the same point I was going to make, but I wanted to elaborate a bit. Running away from the cops who saw you violating a city ordinance or a state law is not the same thing as displaying criminal intent, much less violent criminal intent. Even if there is reason to believe the person is on his way to commit a crime (something other than merely seeing they have a weapon), the cops don't have a license to kill, nor should they be given one. The first response should always be to assess the situation, detain the person if necessary, and to ascertain what they were doing and if it's criminal. They should be prepared for the worst but not assume that's what they are dealing with. Lethal force should be the last resort, not the first impulse.

Most violent crimes, including terrorist acts, have periods prior to the actual violence in which the person is engaged in actions that are not themselves violent crimes but strong evidence of being in the process of trying to commit one.
Again, a man with a knife says "I am going to kill those kids". Nothing he has done yet is actually illegal. He then runs towards those kids, which is also not illegal. The cops command him to stop and he doesn't, which is illegal but not a violent crime and maybe he didn't hear them. The cops then shoot him. They have killed him based entirely upon their reasonable inference that he intended to commit a violent crime with his weapon and were trying to prevent that future crime.
Do you oppose any use of lethal force to stop this man from reaching those kids? If not, then you contradict your own "argument".

I look forward to you refusing to answer this simple question, because any answer you give will expose either the absurd extremism of your position on law enforcement and disregard for public safety, or the hypocrisy of your argument.

You just presented a case where the cops had probable cause to believe the man was violent. He declared his intention to kill people in clear, unambiguous language. Of course the cops should try to stop him and if they couldn't do it without resorting to the use of force, then the use of force is justified. But that's not the same as the one you presented in your prior post. In that previous scenario, there was no indication of why the guy was carrying a gun but you said the mere fact he had one was reason for the cops to assume he was a violent criminal and to kill him.

It reminds me of this incident, where a Seattle cop saw a guy with a knife, yelled at him to put the knife down, and when the guy didn't comply the cop shot and killed him. It turned out the knife was a 3" blade, legal in Seattle, the guy was partially deaf and may not have heard the cop, and he was a woodcarver engaged in whittling a stick when the cop saw him. The cop was not justified in thinking the guy was a criminal on his way to stab someone, and his use of lethal force was way out of line.
 
Last edited:
Reading the story about the 14yo boy shot 7 times in New Jersey (he lived, thankfully) it looks like the police are trying to say that he ran away from them, pulled a gun while running and shot towards them. The investigation says he had no gun on him. Witness says he was trying to pull up his pants. Reports says "a gun was found" but was not connected (yet?) to the boy.

All of that is just background to explain why I'm pondering this question:

If a person is running from the police, WHAT would have to be present or true to make shooting toward that feeling person reasonable?

One example I can think of, the escaped murderers in New York. They were known murderers - FACT - so they presented a known and imminent danger to the community. They had nothing to gain in being caught and everything to lose; there was no leniency or mitigating circumstance to present, they knew this and the cops knew they knew this - FACT - so this made them dangerous to the Police as well as even more dangerous to the community. Because of these lack of options, it was known that they would be seeking weapons and means to defend themselves from capture. When those men ran, it seems wise and justified to shoot at them to stop them, and if they died from it, the decision could be justified due to the real and immediate danger of their escape to members of the Police and the community.

But someone "nearby" an "alleged shooting"? (Radazz Hearns)
Or, someone late on child support?
Or, someone selling drugs?
Or, someone holding a gun but unknown purpose? (Tamir Rice)

It seems that in most cases, if the suspect is fleeing, it is NOT better to shoot at them because of the risk of causing a death that is not justified by the risk to the public.

What are your thoughts? When do you think it is reasonable to shoot at a fleeing "suspect"?

Raddaz Hearns pleaded guilty to a weapons charge.
Trenton teen shot by police pleads guilty to weapon charge, sources say
nj.com said:
Hearns was charged with aggravated assault, possession of a handgun and possession of a defaced firearm following the Aug. 7 confrontation. Authorities alleged he pointed a gun at police as he fled an arrest. He was 14 years old at the time.
Now 15, Hearns pleaded guilty Thursday to possession of a defaced firearm during a proceeding in Mercer County Superior Court's Family Division, three law enforcement officers with knowledge of the outcome said.
The officers spoke on the condition on anonymity because Family Division proceedings are closed to the public.
The shooting drew widespread attention, public protests and repeated claims on the teen's behalf that he was unarmed when a sheriff's officer and state police trooper shot him.
At one point last August, U.S. Rep. Bonnie Watson Coleman called for federal authorities to take over the investigation.
Hearns' lawyer has said he intends to file a civil lawsuit against the city, county and state for the injuries the teen suffered. And the case against a sheriff's officer charged with leaking the teen's mughot to the media is ongoing.
What basis does the lawyer still have for the lawsuit? The shooting was obviously justified. By the way, that shyster was singing a very different tune last year.
Trenton 14-year-old was unarmed when shot 7 times by police, family's lawyer says
I also do not think the employee who leaked Raddaz's previous mugshots should be charged with a crime. The public has the right to know this teenage thug had previous brushes with the law.
 
Back
Top Bottom