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White people need to stop saying 'namaste'.

No, I did not 'decry' the change. I just said it would destroy the essence of Hasty Pudding. I think that would be a loss, but I'm not a member of Hasty Pudding and my opinion on how they ought to vote on the matter obviously carries no weight.

Yeah, you did 'decry' the change. I remember that thread. You said it would destroy the essence of Hasty Pudding. Just as the author of this article feels that the essence of yoga has been dramatically altered into the westernized version she witnessed. She found it disconcerting and explained why.

You called her crazy and entitled.

You've never even been to a Hasty Pudding production. You've never set foot on Harvard Campus or in the US.

Wow.
 
The history of yoga (the exercise)
It wasn't until the 19th century that an Indian prince named Krishnaraja Wodeyar III produced something resembling what we call yoga: a manual called the Sritattvanidhi, which listed 122 poses mostly taken from Indian gymnastics. What really kicked-started modern yoga, though, was the influence of the Imperial British, who introduced Indians to the new exercise craze that was sweeping Europe at the time.

Later a guy named B.K.S. Iyengar came up with the idea of combining these exercise techniques with some of the teachings described in old Hindu texts like the Yoga Sutras and let the result loose on America in the 1960s. Since then, yoga fans have grown by the millions, with few realizing that they are practicing a chanted-up version of early 20th-century gym class.


In sum, like all aspects of all cultures, "authentic" yoga is itself nothing other than the product of numerous acts of "appropriation".
 
I'm now starting to think I should feel uncomfortable when I see some twit dressed up as a leprechaun on TV at a St. Patrick's Day parade somewhere in the US. Folks, if you're going to dress as a leprechaun, you should study Irish mythology in order to understand the role of leprechauns in Irish folklore. Otherwise you shouldn't be appropriating my culture...

Or, you know, do what you want. No-one really gives a shit.
 
Please note: she is not calling people who practice yoga as it is done in classes in Australia wrong or stupid nor is she saying that people aren't allowed to do what they like. She is simply expressing how disconcerting it is to walk into a class that is so vastly different than the yoga she grew up with. She went into the class hoping to connect with part of her culture. She found something else entirely.

If she isn't calling white people practicing yoga wrong and saying white people shouldn't say namaste, then the writer of the title of the article is. Either way, whoever it is, they are blatantly racist and should be rightly condemned.

As for her walking into a class of strangers and seeing them doing things a way she doesn't approve of, and objecting to it, who is in the wrong here? Why is she going in there if she doesn't like the way that these people do it, and why isn't she doing it her own way at home or with others who do it her way? This is a very stupid thing to get upset over, and worthy of absolutely zero sympathy or accommodation from others. It reminds me of old people railing against that new fangled rock and roll music. Those damn kids have no respect for their elders! They should do it our way forever and ever!

I can still understand how disconcerting it would be to someone who grew up knowing the authentic practice, surrounded and part of the Hindu culture, to see the watered down, westernized, bastardized practice in a yoga class in Australia.

You mean the new and improved more pure version, without all of the religious claptrap, right? She is coming in to this class, not knowing all of the meaning that these people have put into their authentic practice of this purer form, meaning to pollute it with her own toxic ideas. Has she no respect for their culture??? gasp!
 
If she isn't calling white people practicing yoga wrong and saying white people shouldn't say namaste, then the writer of the title of the article is. Either way, whoever it is, they are blatantly racist and should be rightly condemned.

The title is click bait. It did exactly what it was designed to do. Not written by the author of the article nor supported by anything the author wrote.


As for her walking into a class of strangers and seeing them doing things a way she doesn't approve of, and objecting to it, who is in the wrong here? Why is she going in there if she doesn't like the way that these people do it, and why isn't she doing it her own way at home or with others who do it her way? This is a very stupid thing to get upset over, and worthy of absolutely zero sympathy or accommodation from others. It reminds me of old people railing against that new fangled rock and roll music. Those damn kids have no respect for their elders! They should do it our way forever and ever!

She walked into a class, hoping to find something of her heritage. But the class with the familiar name 'yoga' was something entirely different than the yoga with which she was familiar and grew up knowing.

How horrible that she felt confused by that! How horrible that she dares write about it! How horrible that she does not embrace white people culture or 'culture' and it's many misattributions and missteps!

I would like to see the expression on your face if you were to walk into one of the two 'Chinese' restaurants in my town. I can assure you that you might recognize the names of some of the dishes but you definitely would not recognize the food as 'Chinese.' Which is fine. Even I don't think it is actually Chinese food. More like 'Chinese.'

You were not born in China, right? But imagine you are freshly immigrated, and have a job at the university and are a bit homesick and so you make the mistake of going to an 'authentic Chinese' restaurant in my town.

Some people actually believe that they have a right to express themselves. I agree with them.

You mean the new and improved more pure version, without all of the religious claptrap, right? She is coming in to this class, not knowing all of the meaning that these people have put into their authentic practice of this purer form, meaning to pollute it with her own toxic ideas. Has she no respect for their culture??? gasp!

It cannot possibly be an 'improved' i.e. reinvented to suite the needs and sensibilities of the conquerors and be more pure. Or pure.

It's hardly more pure anymore than claiming that Ave Maria is more pure a piece of music if one divests it of its religious meaning.

It is entirely possible to recognize the spiritual or religious significance of something without actually embracing the religion itself, you know.
 
Is what a nationwide craze?

Cultural appropriation mythicism is not a 'craze', in the sense that a large number in the population believe the arguments of the mythicists.

But cultural appropriation mythicism is certainly crazy. And mythicists scream about entitlement when they are the ones who refuse to share ideas they did not invent and that do not belong to them; the mythicists are the ones with a sense of entitlement.

Are white people en masse suffering emotional, physical, mental, financial or spiritual pain and shortening of life? Is there a deep history of Hindu persecution of white practitioners of yoga?

I did not use the word 'persecution'. I am not persecuted if entitled Hindu women publish articles in mainstream newspapers whingeing about wicked white people copying stuff she copied from someone else.

History didn't start last week and the relationships among individuals and between groups is deeper than a single layer.

I don't have relationships with groups, nor do I have relationships with dead people I've never met.

For example, I don't have a 'relationship' with the gay community. There are individual queer people I love and some I loathe and they're not mixed up in my head as some kind of generic 'community'.

And this is why you don't get it.

For example, I didn't say you have relationships with groups.

Unless you are willing to consider history, group dynamics, and how members of the groups involved might be something more than unconnected self-contained units, you are never going to solve the problem, and you will spend the rest of you life being that guy

old.jpg
 
It's "thongs" people!

Yah... no. There is no spirituality in a shoe, dude. Cradle the jewels. Become one with the string. Ugh. And the way you show that? With the jack and stars? I feel so othered.

- - - Updated - - -

However, if there is a side benefit to this particular form of faux grievance we do get to learn a little history.

And that has its merits. ~nods~
 
toni said:
Please note: she is not calling people who practice yoga as it is done in classes in Australia wrong or stupid nor is she saying that people aren't allowed to do what they like.

Toni, with much respect – and I enjoy your posts and your point of view on so many things, so I mean this without sarcasm – I think it is a valid interpretation to see that she is not simply saying, “whoa – I am not a fan of New Coke. I’m going to go buy a can of the old stuff for me. You do what you want.”

Rather, she’s pretty clearly saying the white woman is wrong and should stop injuring the Hindus by practicing yoga the Australian way.

Again, I read these quotes as being objectively NOT about making her own decision for herself nor “simply expressing how disconcerting it is to walk into a class that is so vastly different than the yoga she grew up with.” Instead, she is actually saying, “you people need to rethink how you’re doing this and change it to respect me.”

the article said:
The history of colonisation in India means that the practice of yoga in countries with colonial ties, like Australia, can never truly be a friendly exchange.

It also furthers the economic exploitation of the colonised by the colonisers - landing the profits from a practice that has been appropriated from the colonised in the pockets of the colonisers.

It's about questioning whether your practice of yoga is claiming space away from people of colour to whom yoga is more than a part of their daily routine – it's a part of their cultural and religious identity.

It's about considering whether you can practice yoga without spiritually harvesting a culture and religion that is not yours when you have no deeper understanding, or desire to understand, the historical and social roots of the culture yoga comes from.

And it's about considering whether your casually saying a few namastes at the end of your yoga class feeds into the commodification of Hindu spirituality that then makes it OK for people to Instagram memes such as 'Namaste away from me', to publish a yoga book as a white woman called 'Namaslay', and to make people of South Asian and Hindu identity feel exoticised and misunderstood.


I'm genuinely surprised that one can read this and think, "she is not calling people who practice yoga as it is done in classes in Australia wrong or stupid." Ummm, she actually is.

Just like the fundies with their view that gays should not marry and take away the true sacred meaning of matrimony. JUST like them.
 
I would like to see the expression on your face if you were to walk into one of the two 'Chinese' restaurants in my town. I can assure you that you might recognize the names of some of the dishes but you definitely would not recognize the food as 'Chinese.' Which is fine. Even I don't think it is actually Chinese food. More like 'Chinese.'

I can assure you that it would not bother me in the slightest. I have seen all sorts of "authentic Chinese" and "authentic Korean" (you could orginate me to either culture), that in no way matches what you would find in those countries. Sometimes it is much worse, and sometimes it is much better. Yes, there are things I prefer and find improved over here, as do my relatives that come to visit. They sometimes even start asking for it that way back home. This is not some great insult to me or to them, as much as your white guilt may want it to be.

It cannot possibly be an 'improved'

Oh but it most definitely can be. I am curious, are you one of those white people who feel wrong eating in an Asian place with a knife and fork instead of chopsticks like us yellow people? Whenever I bring white friends it is always funny watching them choose between a fork and chopsticks, feel pressured (by only themselves) into choosing chopsticks, and then seeing them struggle as they keep dropping their food and missing their face.

It is entirely possible to recognize the spiritual or religious significance of something without actually embracing the religion itself, you know.

And it is entirely possible to improve something to a purer form by eliminating the religious aspects of it. A lot of church originated music is much better when approached from a musical instead of spiritual perspective.
 
She is simply expressing how disconcerting it is to walk into a class that is so vastly different than the yoga she grew up with. She went into the class hoping to connect with part of her culture. She found something else entirely.
No, she's not. She's expressing specific ideas regarding the concept of cultural appropriation. The idea that a girl who moved to Australia over 25 years ago expected to find authentic Hindu yoga (whatever that means) in Melbourne beggars belief.
 
How is Yoga Woman's attitude any different than the attitudes of linguistic purists who decry the way 'them colored folks are ruining our English'?

Isn't she just another in history's long line of disgusting, bigoted, elitist pigs?
 
However, if there is a side benefit to this particular form of faux grievance we do get to learn a little history.

Yeah, it's almost as if there were benefits to discussing things, even alienation.

Learning new stuff in the weirdest ways... that's what keeps me coming back here :D
 
She is simply expressing how disconcerting it is to walk into a class that is so vastly different than the yoga she grew up with. She went into the class hoping to connect with part of her culture. She found something else entirely.
No, she's not. She's expressing specific ideas regarding the concept of cultural appropriation. The idea that a girl who moved to Australia over 25 years ago expected to find authentic Hindu yoga (whatever that means) in Melbourne beggars belief.

And she's not allowed to give any context to her feelings? In terms of which you and Metaphor approve?

What an odd position for those who insist that people should be allowed to do as they wish, express themselves as they wish.
 
No, she's not. She's expressing specific ideas regarding the concept of cultural appropriation. The idea that a girl who moved to Australia over 25 years ago expected to find authentic Hindu yoga (whatever that means) in Melbourne beggars belief.

And she's not allowed to give any context to her feelings? In terms of which you and Metaphor approve?

What an odd position for those who insist that people should be allowed to do as they wish, express themselves as they wish.
I have never said that she isn't allowed to write or speak whatever she wants. That this is your interpretation of what I've said speaks volumes regarding your ability to speak rationally on this topic. I was saying your characterization of her position is wrong. You have tried to represent the article as a reaction of a homesick immigrant unexpectedly stumbling into a yoga class expecting to find an 'authentic' representation of the practice. Someone who has lived in Australia for 20 years.

In any event, the subject here is this specific instance of a person claiming cultural appropriation, and the broader idea of cultural appropriation as a concept. This is a discussion board. People talk about these sorts of things. If someone thinks that the ideas expressed in a published article are wrong or incoherent or whatever, usually, this is the sort of place one goes to discuss that. The only person here who doesn't want people to express their opinions seems to be you. I am also getting tired of you trying to speak for immigrants and minorities and telling them how they should feel - for example, that gem of an exchange between you and Jolly Penguin.
 
No, she's not. She's expressing specific ideas regarding the concept of cultural appropriation. The idea that a girl who moved to Australia over 25 years ago expected to find authentic Hindu yoga (whatever that means) in Melbourne beggars belief.

And she's not allowed to give any context to her feelings? In terms of which you and Metaphor approve?

What an odd position for those who insist that people should be allowed to do as they wish, express themselves as they wish.

I expect... I don't know this, but I expect... if the article had been a compare and contrast with a "did you know" background section, it would have had only positive and supportive comments.

The "eh, wot?" comments seem to stem entirely and exclusively from the comments that claim, "this should not have happened to me."

Really, I am totally on board with despising the commercialization and dumb-downedness of our societies. TOTALLY. My children would say, "pathologically." We do not have cable tv. We do not have high speed internet. We do not buy clothes with logos. We visit a "fast food" restaurant less than once per year, literally. We do not have power toys. We don't do amusement parks, resorts or malls for recreation. Every darn thing the kids try or talk about results in an educational research project because we think it is interesting to know the backstory. We talk at great length about culturicide and it's evils.

I _totally_get_ the desire for an authentic (understood, meaningful, interactive) life. Completely.

But "cultural appropriation" is a concept that has some giant holes - like religion does. And this woman's article is a stark example of that. It's got some holes that we've discussed here. Her particular complaints that she was surprised by this, and that it damages the people of the country she left 20 years prior.

And of all examples to claim, "I can't stand it that my people are known for this cheesy imitation of a beautiful thing!" she picks yoga? Bollywood doesn't bother her? She wants to fix yoga?

And then there's the fact that so many of us have been hit with this club already. About whether we're "allowed" to have christmas trees. Whether it's inauthentic and therefore wrong to say "happy holidays," whether we can have our fucking birth control (pun intended), Whether it's inauthentic to work at a catholic school and get pregnant and keep your job, whether our daughters can properly go to prom in a dress that does not cover her thighs because she's doing it wrong if she tries and it's jarring and disconcerting to the staff.

I have every support to shut down the mockery or derision of cultural behaviors or the outright crushing of them (speak English only!!). But I think she is just wrong to claim that copying the exercises and peaceful words of a cultural activity is in any way harming Hindus.
 
I can assure you that it would not bother me in the slightest.

The food is not good. I believe that on that basis alone, it would bother you. It bothers me on the basis of liking well prepared food. But there are chopsticks! and those wonderful fortune cookies.

I was basing my assumptions upon the experience of watching a number of international visitors and guests sample what passes for 'authentic' cuisine from their home countries. And Americans who have traveled.

You live in a different part of the country than I do, with many more and many more well established people with Asian ancestry. I live in a small city in the midwest. Definitely a different food experience, and it is vastly different than when I lived in a large metropolitan area on the east coast.

Some people where I live think pizza is 'too spicy,' for example.

We rarely eat out.


It cannot possibly be an 'improved'

Oh but it most definitely can be. I am curious, are you one of those white people who feel wrong eating in an Asian place with a knife and fork instead of chopsticks like us yellow people? Whenever I bring white friends it is always funny watching them choose between a fork and chopsticks, feel pressured (by only themselves) into choosing chopsticks, and then seeing them struggle as they keep dropping their food and missing their face.

I am not nearly dexterous to be able to manage chopsticks. I know my limitations.

It is entirely possible to recognize the spiritual or religious significance of something without actually embracing the religion itself, you know.

And it is entirely possible to improve something to a purer form by eliminating the religious aspects of it. A lot of church originated music is much better when approached from a musical instead of spiritual perspective.

Your anti-Hindu bigotry is showing here.

But yoga in the Hindu tradition IS in fact, a religious practice. What is done now, at least in the US and from what I can tell, in Australia, is more along the lines of something else cobbled together by the British who wished to expunge the inconvenient Hindu aspects. That doesn't make it more pure. It does make it something else entirely. I can see how that would be discomfiting.
 
No, she's not. She's expressing specific ideas regarding the concept of cultural appropriation. The idea that a girl who moved to Australia over 25 years ago expected to find authentic Hindu yoga (whatever that means) in Melbourne beggars belief.

And she's not allowed to give any context to her feelings? In terms of which you and Metaphor approve?

What an odd position for those who insist that people should be allowed to do as they wish, express themselves as they wish.

It isn't "context". It is judgement.

This is "context":

Yoga in Hindu traditions is more than physical exercise. It is a multifaceted philosophy, medicine system and way of life. The asanas, or 'poses', that people perform when they go to their local class are one part of several other practices – including mediation, abstention and liberation – that are considered as a philosophical school in Hinduism.

That isn't to say somehow that yoga belongs only to Hindus or to all Hindus. There are many caste and class-based critiques of yoga in India and Indian diasporas which say that yoga has often been used as a tool by communities with existing power to project a certain image of what it means to be Indian or Hindu at the expense of minority and oppressed voices.

This is judgemental:

Whether marketed as an exercise class or a way to connect with your spiritual self, the commodification of yoga in a way that is entirely dismissive or ignorant of its roots or connections to an existing religion is appropriation at its worst.

This is context:

In fact, during their colonial rule, the British banned certain practices of yoga which they perceived as threatening and 'less acceptable' Hindu practices. As a policy of conciliation towards some aspects of Indian culture was pursued by the British in the later years of their rule, the Brits promoted a re-appropriated more physical 'modern' yoga which is more akin to the postural yoga taught in many classes in Australia today.

This is judgemental:

The history of colonisation in India means that the practice of yoga in countries with colonial ties, like Australia, can never truly be a friendly exchange.

Not context... judgement:

It's about questioning whether your practice of yoga is claiming space away from people of colour to whom yoga is more than a part of their daily routine – it's a part of their cultural and religious identity.

It's about considering whether you can practise yoga without spiritually harvesting a culture and religion that is not yours when you have no deeper understanding, or desire to understand, the historical and social roots of the culture yoga comes from.

And it's about considering whether your casually saying a few namastes at the end of your yoga class feeds into the commodification of Hindu spirituality that then makes it OK for people to Instagram memes such as 'Namaste away from me', to publish a yoga book as a white woman called 'Namaslay', and to make people of South Asian and Hindu identity feel exoticised and misunderstood.

She is certainly entitled to her opinion, and even entitled to write an article for publication expressing that opinion.

But that doesn't make her opinion valid, factually correct or anything more than an opinion that does actually sound rather self-entitled... exactly what she is accusing "white women" of.

I think she makes a few decent points.

The yoga class felt strange... I felt like an imposter.

Those are her feelings, and I can understand how she might feel that way. Experiencing something that should be entirely familiar in an unfamiliar context is disconcerting. I suspect we've all had that happen to us at some point in our lives.

Namaste is my way of greeting Hindi speaking elders in my hometown Melbourne or a way of saying hello to most people back in India. But hearing namaste chanted by the white yoga instructor to a predominantly white class was unsettling. Really? If the yoga class itself wasn't white-centric enough, she really had to place the appropriative cherry on top.
I can even agree with her a little bit on this one. Complaining about a "white-centric" class in Australia is probably stupid, but I can understand the annoyance at the use of "namaste". The instructors are using a single word from another language to... do what? If the instructor speaks Hindi, even badly, then fine. If the person is greeting someone who speaks Hindi and is trying to be respectful, then fine. But the oh-so-reverently saying of "namaste" during a yoga class has always been eye-roll worthy to me, and I can understand why it pisses her off.

Then again, I say "gesundheit", so what do I know. :D

In many western countries, Hinduism is treated as a mystic and ancient tradition and India as magical - ignoring the fact that Hinduism is a living, breathing contemporary religion practised by millions of people in their everyday lives around the world, including a huge Indian diaspora in Australia.
Valid point, and goes back to the use of the word "namaste" like it is a magical word instead of simply saying "good bye". We tend to do the same thing with Native American culture.

But part of that "treating [her culture] as a mystic and ancient tradition and... magical" is pretending that it is off limits to acquisition and adaptation - which is what she is doing.

Given most classes are taught by white women, and most ads you see for yoga classes or yoga wear feature white women, white women have become the embodiment of yoga in Australia. As a Hindu woman, this places me as the "other" in a culture that is mine.
Again, I can understand how this can feel disconcerting. Believe me, I experience the feeling every day in the US city I was born in. That's life.

It also furthers the economic exploitation of the colonised by the colonisers - landing the profits from a practice that has been appropriated from the colonised in the pockets of the colonisers.
This is the most valid point in her entire article, but I'm not sure it really applies to her specific topic. This is one of the two ways I do see "cultural appropriation" as being harmful, but I am wondering if there is some law or other barrier to Hindu women teaching yoga classes?

The example of a Chinese restaurant has been brought up previously - the fact that the food is typically americanized and has little resemblance to "authentic" Chinese food - is this "cultural appropriation". The other part that factors in, imho, is that every Chinese restaurant I have ever been into has been owned by a Chinese family. Maybe that's a fluke. I haven't done a study. But if my personal experience is an accurate indication, then it is Chinese people - not white people - who are profiting.

I do think there are examples of this aspect - "the economic exploitation of the colonised by the colonisers - landing the profits from a practice that has been appropriated from the colonised in the pockets of the colonisers" - and I do think that could be at least one indicator of genuine "bad" "cultural appropriation" - but I don't think yoga classes in Australia qualify.

OK teal deer, so I end it here
 
And she's not allowed to give any context to her feelings? In terms of which you and Metaphor approve?

What an odd position for those who insist that people should be allowed to do as they wish, express themselves as they wish.
I have never said that she isn't allowed to write or speak whatever she wants. That this is your interpretation of what I've said speaks volumes regarding your ability to speak rationally on this topic. I was saying your characterization of her position is wrong. You have tried to represent the article as a reaction of a homesick immigrant unexpectedly stumbling into a yoga class expecting to find an 'authentic' representation of the practice. Someone who has lived in Australia for 20 years.

In any event, the subject here is this specific instance of a person claiming cultural appropriation, and the broader idea of cultural appropriation as a concept. This is a discussion board. People talk about these sorts of things. If someone thinks that the ideas expressed in a published article are wrong or incoherent or whatever, usually, this is the sort of place one goes to discuss that. The only person here who doesn't want people to express their opinions seems to be you. I am also getting tired of you trying to speak for immigrants and minorities and telling them how they should feel - for example, that gem of an exchange between you and Jolly Penguin.

So, what's your time limit on feeling homesick?
 
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