White People Think Black People Are Magical

[KeepTalking]

I asked the question because it was not clear. Given your response, it seems that you do not see this portrayal as a bad thing, while still holding with the theme you presented in this thread that the magical negro is a prevalent and negative trope in cinema today.

I deliberately chose The Green Mile because it is a piece of good storytelling.

It also shows that the Magic Negro is a thing, a specific thing.

While John Coffey is a black character with magical abilities, he does not fit into the shoebox of the magical negro trope, and neither do many of the black characters listed in the wikipedia article on the magical negro trope.

How so? Specifically with John Coffey.

The problem isn't that tropes are bad but they are often used badly. That they have consequences, unintended they may be, that can lead to bad storytelling and a limitation of opportunities for minorities in the industry.

Sure, tropes can be used badly, but it does not help your case by referring to characters as magical negroes when they don't fit the trope. There was certainly a time in American media when black actors/actresses were very limited in their roles and opportunities, and while there may still be some lingering consequences in that regard, things are changing rapidly, and have been for several decades. There will always be shitty producers/directors/writiers making shitty movies using tired tropes, but the magical negro is certainly not the only, or even prevalent, role for black entertainers that it once was.

Define the trope and then show how the characters don't fit it.

As Jimmy Higgins has covered this last request rather well, I will concentrate on John Coffey, and will use the definitions you posted below.

Some definitions and/or significant characteristics of the Magic Negro.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalNegro

Well he or she is the ultimate plot device used by mostly White filmmakers to help their White protagonists out of a jam or even to find themselves.

As noted previously, the main character, Edgecomb, is already a good person. He is in no moral dilemma, and the only help that Coffey provides him is to cure an infection. Edgecomb does not need to find himself, he already has the moral high ground. If anything, the actions he takes after meeting Coffey are detrimental to his career. Later, he has Coffey heal the wife of the prison warden, but rather than doing this to help himself, Edgecomb is actually taking action to try to help Coffey. He wants to bring to light the fact that Coffey is innocent of the crime for which he is imprisoned. Although his attempt is ultimately unsuccessful, this really turns the trope on its head, the protagonist is trying to help the supporting character, and not the other way around. I think King was actually cognizant of the trope, and trying to reverse it in a subtle way, which many apparently missed.

He or she is usually happy, extraordinary helpful and self-sacrificial.

Coffee is not happy, he is a very sad and sympathetic character. He does help regardless, and is self-sacrificial, so those match up. If viewed as King acknowledging the trope, and trying to do something to correct it, however, these would be necessary for the character.

And as the name suggests, the Magic Negro usually has some sort of powers, or direct connection with the afterlife (i.e. ghosts), however mere Black mortals are not excluded from this popular trope too. - See more at: http://madamenoire.com/489882/bye-f...d-loves-a-magical-negro/#sthash.JqdYCgYV.dpuf

He undeniably has the power to heal, this I have already noted.

The Magic Negro is a figure of postmodern folk culture, coined by snarky 20th century sociologists, to explain a cultural figure who emerged in the wake of Brown vs. Board of Education. "He has no past, he simply appears one day to help the white protagonist," reads the description on Wikipedia [].

Coffey's past is explored. He does not just appear in the prison, we learn why he is there, what lead up to his conviction, and the fact that another prisoner at the facility actually committed the crime for which he was convicted. Coffey is not the one dimensional, disposable character that the trope implies.

He's there to assuage white "guilt" (i.e., the minimal discomfort they feel) over the role of slavery and racial segregation in American history, while replacing stereotypes of a dangerous, highly sexualized black man with a benign figure for whom interracial sexual congress holds no interest.

Coffey does not assuage anyone's guilt. His character does just the opposite, he makes the main character, most of the other characters, and most importantly, the audience feel guilty that they can ultimately do nothing to right the injustice done to John Coffey.

As might be expected, this figure is chiefly cinematic -- embodied by such noted performers as Sidney Poitier, Morgan Freeman, Scatman Crothers, Michael Clarke Duncan, Will Smith and, most recently, Don Cheadle. And that's not to mention a certain basketball player whose very nickname is "Magic."

http://mediamatters.org/video/2007/03/20/latching-onto-la-times-op-ed-limbaugh-sings-bar/138345

Well if you want to define the trope as Michael Clarke Duncan, then he obviously fits the bill. Don Cheadle? Given the "most recently" qualifier, I can only assume they mean his role as Warmachine in the Iron Man films. I call bullshit on that one, and would like to see some support for that assertion. I also hope the author of the above piece realizes that Magic Johnson is an actual real-life person, and not simply a supporting character in a film.

I mentioned it earlier in this post, but it I think this bears repeating, and expounding upon: I feel John Coffey is confused as fitting the magical negro trope because King is going out of his way to present the character as a magical negro, and at the same time busting the trope by constructing a character that defies that trope. I haven't looked into this possibility that this is truly the case before typing my response, but now I plan to go searching for comments King may have made on what he intended to convey with the character.

 

[whichphilosophy]

I read the article which I found too sketchy and devoid of details how the research was conducted. Therefore there is nothing to say the conclusion that White People Think Black People Are Magical has any real basis.

 

[KeepTalking]

I mentioned it earlier in this post, but it I think this bears repeating, and expounding upon: I feel John Coffey is confused as fitting the magical negro trope because King is going out of his way to present the character as a magical negro, and at the same time busting the trope by constructing a character that defies that trope. I haven't looked into this possibility that this is truly the case before typing my response, but now I plan to go searching for comments King may have made on what he intended to convey with the character.

It seems I was mistaken in this thinking. I have gone looking for anything King has said in relation to John Coffey, and though many sites accuse him of using the magical negro trope, no one seems to have asked him about it. The closest I can find is an interview where he is asked if Coffey is a black Jesus Christ figure, as the other often supposed interpretation of the character is just that. In response, King states that he thinks it is a failure of the imagination of the interviewer that he thinks Coffey was presented as a black JC. Just before that question in the interview, however, he is asked about Morgan Freeman's role in Shawshank Redemption, specifically if the character had to be black. Kings response was that he felt the character could have been either black or white, whereas Coffey had to be black, given the circumstances he found himself in. I think that dispenses with the idea that Red in Shawshank is a magical negro, at least as imagined in the book that King actually wrote.

 

[Mageth]

Who thinks Red in Shawshank is an example of the trope? On the contrary, if anything The Shawshank Redemption (movie) inverted the "Magical Negro" trope - the black guy was "normal," the white guy was "magical."

 

[KeepTalking]

Who thinks Red in Shawshank is an example of the trope? On the contrary, if anything The Shawshank Redemption (movie) inverted the "Magical Negro" trope - the black guy was "normal," the white guy was "magical."

Red was listed as an example in the wikipedia quote that AA used for magical negro earlier in the thread.

 

[Mageth]

Larry Wilmore on Jon Stewart - Negroes aren't magic!

[video]http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/4mia8t/the-first-364-days-23-hours[/video]

 

[Earl IV]

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2014/11/white-people-think-black-people-are-magical.html



I blame the movie Hancock for this.

I blame Julius Erving and Michael Jordan.

Wilt Chamberlain - 20,000 women

nuf said

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Who thinks Red in Shawshank is an example of the trope? On the contrary, if anything The Shawshank Redemption (movie) inverted the "Magical Negro" trope - the black guy was "normal," the white guy was "magical."

Same with Neo in The Matrix, but both Morpheus and Red are listed in the Wikipedia article.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I deliberately chose The Green Mile because it is a piece of good storytelling.

It also shows that the Magic Negro is a thing, a specific thing.

While John Coffey is a black character with magical abilities, he does not fit into the shoebox of the magical negro trope, and neither do many of the black characters listed in the wikipedia article on the magical negro trope.

How so? Specifically with John Coffey.

The problem isn't that tropes are bad but they are often used badly. That they have consequences, unintended they may be, that can lead to bad storytelling and a limitation of opportunities for minorities in the industry.

Sure, tropes can be used badly, but it does not help your case by referring to characters as magical negroes when they don't fit the trope. There was certainly a time in American media when black actors/actresses were very limited in their roles and opportunities, and while there may still be some lingering consequences in that regard, things are changing rapidly, and have been for several decades. There will always be shitty producers/directors/writiers making shitty movies using tired tropes, but the magical negro is certainly not the only, or even prevalent, role for black entertainers that it once was.

Define the trope and then show how the characters don't fit it.

As Jimmy Higgins has covered this last request rather well, I will concentrate on John Coffey, and will use the definitions you posted below.

Some definitions and/or significant characteristics of the Magic Negro.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalNegro

Well he or she is the ultimate plot device used by mostly White filmmakers to help their White protagonists out of a jam or even to find themselves.

As noted previously, the main character, Edgecomb, is already a good person.

Didn't say he wasn't. The magic Negro transforms the white protagonist, causes growth, causes change. are you saying there was no growth, no change, no transformation in Edgecomb?

He is in no moral dilemma, and the only help that Coffey provides him is to cure an infection.

So Coffey doesn't pass his power on to Edgecomb?

Edgecomb does not need to find himself, he already has the moral high ground. If anything, the actions he takes after meeting Coffey are detrimental to his career. Later, he has Coffey heal the wife of the prison warden, but rather than doing this to help himself, Edgecomb is actually taking action to try to help Coffey. He wants to bring to light the fact that Coffey is innocent of the crime for which he is imprisoned. Although his attempt is ultimately unsuccessful, this really turns the trope on its head, the protagonist is trying to help the supporting character, and not the other way around.

Actually it doesn't. no one has said the protagonist does nothing good or right or just without the MN. But the character Edgecomb himself says that meeting john Coffey changed his life, changed him.

Edgecomb is a decent man in an indecent business. Killing a man ain't no good thing. And for a decent man to have to do it, over and over again, it wears upon the soul.


take this exchange between Edgecomb and Coffey

Paul Edgecomb: On the day of my judgment, when I stand before God, and He asks me why did I kill one of his true miracles, what am I gonna say? That it was my job? My job?
John Coffey: You tell God the Father it was a kindness you done. I know you hurtin' and worryin', I can feel it on you, but you oughta quit on it now. Because I want it over and done. I do. I'm tired, boss. Tired of bein' on the road, lonely as a sparrow in the rain. Tired of not ever having me a buddy to be with, or tell me where we's coming from or going to, or why. Mostly I'm tired of people being ugly to each other. I'm tired of all the pain I feel and hear in the world everyday. There's too much of it. It's like pieces of glass in my head all the time. Can you understand?
Paul Edgecomb: Yes, John. I think I can.​

Sometime the gift given is adsolution.

NOTE: To look at The Green Mile outside of its religious context is to miss a good deal of the message

I think King was actually cognizant of the trope, and trying to reverse it in a subtle way, which many apparently missed.

I think he's using it not running from because he has no reason to.

He or she is usually happy, extraordinary helpful and self-sacrificial.

Coffee is not happy,

Did you not see the word usually?

he is a very sad and sympathetic character. He does help regardless, and is self-sacrificial, so those match up.

Oh good.

If viewed as King acknowledging the trope, and trying to do something to correct it, however, these would be necessary for the character.

Did King say this somewhere?

And as the name suggests, the Magic Negro usually has some sort of powers, or direct connection with the afterlife (i.e. ghosts), however mere Black mortals are not excluded from this popular trope too. - See more at: http://madamenoire.com/489882/bye-f...d-loves-a-magical-negro/#sthash.JqdYCgYV.dpuf

He undeniably has the power to heal, this I have already noted.

The Magic Negro is a figure of postmodern folk culture, coined by snarky 20th century sociologists, to explain a cultural figure who emerged in the wake of Brown vs. Board of Education. "He has no past, he simply appears one day to help the white protagonist," reads the description on Wikipedia [].

Coffey's past is explored.

his past is explored, or the reasons for his imprisonment are explored? The plot of the story is dependent on his innocence. And the story of his imprisonment is not exposed to make him more human, but more saintly.

He does not just appear in the prison, we learn why he is there, what lead up to his conviction, and the fact that another prisoner at the facility actually committed the crime for which he was convicted. Coffey is not the one dimensional, disposable character that the trope implies.

A trope is not disposable and neither is a MN when used to further the story, it is necessary else it would not be used. The trope does not imply disposability, although people do sometime infer that it does.

He's there to assuage white "guilt" (i.e., the minimal discomfort they feel) over the role of slavery and racial segregation in American history, while replacing stereotypes of a dangerous, highly sexualized black man with a benign figure for whom interracial sexual congress holds no interest.

Coffey does not assuage anyone's guilt. His character does just the opposite, he makes the main character, most of the other characters, and most importantly, the audience feel guilty that they can ultimately do nothing to right the injustice done to John Coffey.

Did you side with Coffey? You feel bad for his death, and you feel bad that the system is bad, but do you feel like you are bad? Like you would pull the switch on John Coffey? you can be sad and still be on the side of angels.

As might be expected, this figure is chiefly cinematic -- embodied by such noted performers as Sidney Poitier, Morgan Freeman, Scatman Crothers, Michael Clarke Duncan, Will Smith and, most recently, Don Cheadle. And that's not to mention a certain basketball player whose very nickname is "Magic."

http://mediamatters.org/video/2007/03/20/latching-onto-la-times-op-ed-limbaugh-sings-bar/138345

Well if you want to define the trope as Michael Clarke Duncan, then he obviously fits the bill. Don Cheadle? Given the "most recently" qualifier, I can only assume they mean his role as Warmachine in the Iron Man films.

Don't assume.

 The Family Man

I call bullshit on that one, and would like to see some support for that assertion. I also hope the author of the above piece realizes that Magic Johnson is an actual real-life person, and not simply a supporting character in a film.

The OP is about real people.

I mentioned it earlier in this post, but it I think this bears repeating, and expounding upon: I feel John Coffey is confused as fitting the magical negro trope because King is going out of his way to present the character as a magical negro, and at the same time busting the trope by constructing a character that defies that trope. I haven't looked into this possibility that this is truly the case before typing my response, but now I plan to go searching for comments King may have made on what he intended to convey with the character.

good luck with that

 

[crispy]

Can a black guy ever have a magical role without invoking 'magical negro'?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Can a black guy ever have a magical role without invoking 'magical negro'?

Yes

 

[Mageth]

Can a black guy ever have a magical role without invoking 'magical negro'?

Yes, because the "magical negro" trope is not simply "a negro with a magical role".

 

[dx713]

Can a black guy ever have a magical role without invoking 'magical negro'?

Yes, because the "magical negro" trope is not simply "a negro with a magical role".

Yes, actually the "magical" part is not the essential part of the trope. One can be a "magical negro" without magic powers.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Magical Negro? First time I have heard of this concept for black people. Based on what am reading in the link given on the trope, it sounds more like what native americans get shoehorned into in movies all the time. Old wise shamans. Or Chinese people. Mr. Miagi from Karate Kid, etc. "Aaaancient Chinese Secret" "Wax on. Wax off Danielson!"

 

[dx713]

Magical Negro? First time I have heard of this concept for black people. Based on what am reading in the link given on the trope, it sounds more like what native americans get shoehorned into in movies all the time. Old wise shamans. Or Chinese people. Mr. Miagi from Karate Kid, etc. "Aaaancient Chinese Secret" "Wax on. Wax off Danielson!"

Yes, you're right, it's a lot like a black version of the wise shaman, or the mentor.
The main difference is that the magical negro helps the main character not thanks to some recognized and respected abilities but through his down to earth attitude and good mood while coming from an inferior position. But there can clearly be some overlap.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

So we are saying that white people see black people as nice and positive and helpful? Isnt that the direct opposite of the racist stereotype we usually complain of for blacks?

 

[KeepTalking]

Athena, I am willing to concede that the role of John Coffey mostly fits the magical negro trope.

On the other hand, you have also acknowledged that this particular role is not a negative one, and I think that we will find that to be the case with many of the roles that fit the trope.

Additionally, John Coffey in The Green Mile is central to the plot. He is not just a plot device. If you do not have John Coffey in the story, then there is no point to The Green Mile. He may not be the protagonist, but you can't have The Green Mile without him. This is what I felt made him an ill fit for the trope.

In that case, where is the problem? If it is a positive role, and a major role in this particular case that the story simply cannot be told without, I don't see how it limits the roles that African Americans can have in Hollywood, or lessens the impact of those roles.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Athena, I am willing to concede that the role of John Coffey mostly fits the magical negro trope.

On the other hand, you have also acknowledged that this particular role is not a negative one,

Where did I say it was? I specifically said about the film that is was good storytelling. My problem isn't with the trope so much, but Hollywood's love affair with the trope. My problem is with an over use that distorts perceptions in the audience about what is good behavior.

and I think that we will find that to be the case with many of the roles that fit the trope.

Additionally, John Coffey in The Green Mile is central to the plot. He is not just a plot device. If you do not have John Coffey in the story, then there is no point to The Green Mile. He may not be the protagonist, but you can't have The Green Mile without him. This is what I felt made him an ill fit for the trope.

Before we go any further, your understanding and study of narrative and mine are not the same. In broadest terms, every element of the story is there to further the plot, therefore is a plot device. Inclusion of the elements that to do not help tell the story are distractions that lessen and cheapen the story.

In that case, where is the problem? If it is a positive role, and a major role in this particular case that the story simply cannot be told without, I don't see how it limits the roles that African Americans can have in Hollywood, or lessens the impact of those roles.

I repeat

My problem isn't with the trope so much, but Hollywood's love affair with the trope.

- - - Updated - - -

BTW

the MN trope need not be inverted

It already has an "opposite"

The White Savior Trope

 

[KeepTalking]

Where did I say it was?

You did not say it was negative, that was my point.

I specifically said about the film that is was good storytelling. My problem isn't with the trope so much, but Hollywood's love affair with the trope. My problem is with an over use that distorts perceptions in the audience about what is good behavior.

I disagree with the notion that Hollywood has a love affair with the trope, but if the trope can be positive, I hardly see how it matters. You would need to judge each individual instance of the trope on its own merits.

and I think that we will find that to be the case with many of the roles that fit the trope.

Additionally, John Coffey in The Green Mile is central to the plot. He is not just a plot device. If you do not have John Coffey in the story, then there is no point to The Green Mile. He may not be the protagonist, but you can't have The Green Mile without him. This is what I felt made him an ill fit for the trope.

Before we go any further, your understanding and study of narrative and mine are not the same. In broadest terms, every element of the story is there to further the plot, therefore is a plot device. Inclusion of the elements that to do not help tell the story are distractions that lessen and cheapen the story.

It is a Stephen King story, his audience expects an element of the supernatural. You could remove John Coffey, but then there is no point to the story at all, or you could make him non-magical, but then you wouldn't have a Stephen King story. Yes, Stephen King did also write The Shawshank Redemption, which has no supernatural element, but he did not write it as Stephen King. He wrote that story, and a few others under the pseudonym Richard Bachman, and none of the original Bachman Books have a supernatural element. He created that pseudonym so that he could go outside of the box without alienating his audience.

In that case, where is the problem? If it is a positive role, and a major role in this particular case that the story simply cannot be told without, I don't see how it limits the roles that African Americans can have in Hollywood, or lessens the impact of those roles.

I repeat

My problem isn't with the trope so much, but Hollywood's love affair with the trope.

Then I have to repeat my rebuttal that you can't simply state that the trope itself is in any way limiting for black actors/actresses. If the trope can be a positive portrayal, then its continued use can be good for black actors/actresses, and you can only judge whether it is good or not based on how it is used in each instance.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Then I have to repeat my rebuttal that you can't simply state that the trope itself is in any way limiting for black actors/actresses. If the trope can be a positive portrayal, then its continued use can be good for black actors/actresses, and you can only judge whether it is good or not based on how it is used in each instance

I can judge trends as I see them.

I can study and take note of the history of the portrayal of black people across media

And most importantly

I can listen to black actors and believe them when they say they are tired of one note roles, not matter how beautifully drawn.

“I have been given a lot of roles that are downtrodden, mammy-ish. A lot of lawyers or doctors who have names but absolutely no lives,” she told The Times. “You’re going to get your three or four scenes, you’re not going to be able to show what you can do. You’re going to get your little bitty paycheck, and then you’re going to be hungry for your next role, which is going to be absolutely the same. That’s the truth.”

-- Viola Davis