White People Think Black People Are Magical

[ksen]

It's a stretch to say Denzel was the lead in 2 Guns. He was the co-lead with Marky Mark.

 

[Emily Lake]

Obi-Wan Kenobi wasn't black.... Has anyone done a statistical analysis on the number of white wizards and helpers vs Magical Negros? If not there has to be some good grant money out there to figure this out.

It seems as if we're missing the obvious though. We're talking about "magical negroes*" and we left out my favorite: Samuel L. Jackson as Mace Windu. That was one magical motherfucker right there.


*Honestly, I feel dirty and like a bad person just typing that.

 

[KeepTalking]

The Whore with the heart of Gold is Always FEMALE.

Seriously? Did you really just make this observation as if it is some sort of surprise?

- - - Updated - - -

It's a stretch to say Denzel was the lead in 2 Guns. He was the co-lead with Marky Mark.

He got top billing over Mark Wahlberg in that movie, even though it was more of a co-leading role.

 

[untermensche]

How in the hell did this thread devolve into talking about the roles black people get in movies?

The linked article didn't mention that at all . . . well other than having a pic of the magical Will Smith next to it.

The studies conducted have shown that whites are more likely to associate black people with words like ghost, paranormal and spirit. Which in turn may help explain differences in pain treatment for blacks vs whites and how black juveniles are considered more adult when "judging culpability."

Isn't it a stretch to say that portrayals in major movies reflect general white beliefs?

Is there any pole that indicates most whites think black children are any different from white children?

The police are an instrument of the wealthy. That is why they attacked the people protesting against the wealthy, why they attacked unions when they arose.

Today we live in a for profit prison system.

The police, who work for the rich, keep that for profit system well fed.

It's just a lot easier to arrest and convict the poor, so blacks who already suffer by being disproportionally poor suffer by being disproportionally sent to prison.

But this isn't at the behest of white people. It is because the people who control the police, the rich, want it.

 

[Emily Lake]

But William Macy in a supporting role does not mean that all white actors to follow him will be relegated to supporting roles, or the audiences will expect all white actors to be relegated to supporting roles, nor is there a racialized history at play that triggers certain expectations of Macy in all his supporting roles. Macy in a supporting role is not by necessity made exotic or mystical. He is still normal.

I don't think anything you've said here applies to black actors.

Samuel L. Jackson (or Will Smith or Morgan Freeman or Eddie Murphy or Michael Clarke Duncan or Laurence Fishburne or Mos Def or any of a humongous list of well known and well respected black actors) in a supporting role does not mean that all black actors to follow him will be relegated to supporting roles, or the audiences will expect all black actors to be relegated to supporting roles. Samuel L. Jackson in a supporting role is not by necessity made exotic or mystical. He is still normal.

Well, okay. Samuel L. Jackson is pretty much never "normal" in any of his roles, supporting or otherwise, but you get the idea, right?

The piece I will grant is that there is a history. Because there has historically been a significant amount of racism in the US, there is a history of that racism in movies, and in movie roles available to black people. Historically they were introduced to film in minor, supporting roles. This is true.

But to insist that this is still true is to deny the achievements of so many accomplished actors and actresses, so many stars of today that it leaves me baffled. There is no one who could possibly deny that Samuel L. Jackson, Will Smith, Morgan Freeman, Eddie Murphy, Michael Clarke Duncan, Laurence Fishburne, Mos Def, Whoopi Goldberg, Rosario Dawson, Denzel Washington, Wesley Snipes, Halle Berry, Jamie Foxx, Don Cheadle, Zoe Saldana, and lots more that I'm just not remembering right now, are all top notch, unparalleled actors in their own right. Not a one of those is in any way relegated to supporting roles.

Athena, as much as I respect you... on this you are Ahab.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well, okay. Samuel L. Jackson is pretty much never "normal" in any of his roles, supporting or otherwise, but you get the idea, right?

The Red Violin, The Negotiator, and oddly enough, the Star Wars Prequel.

The piece I will grant is that there is a history. Because there has historically been a significant amount of racism in the US, there is a history of that racism in movies, and in movie roles available to black people. Historically they were introduced to film in minor, supporting roles. This is true.

Not minor roles. Inferior roles. An entire race was type casted to playing servants, at best wisecracking servants.

But to insist that this is still true is to deny the achievements of so many accomplished actors and actresses, so many stars of today that it leaves me baffled. There is no one who could possibly deny that Samuel L. Jackson, Will Smith, Morgan Freeman, Eddie Murphy, Michael Clarke Duncan, Laurence Fishburne, Mos Def, Whoopi Goldberg, Rosario Dawson, Denzel Washington, Wesley Snipes, Halle Berry, Jamie Foxx, Don Cheadle, Zoe Saldana, and lots more that I'm just not remembering right now, are all top notch, unparalleled actors in their own right. Not a one of those is in any way relegated to supporting roles.

Athena, as much as I respect you... on this you are Ahab.

The problem, I think is that there are not many black roles in Hollywood, unless gangs are involved, it is about Africa, or is a Civil Rights related film. There are more aliens serving on the Enterprise the Into the Darkness film than blacks.

 

[Emily Lake]

And how many mainstream movies can you name from last year that featured Minority leads of any kind, and/or majority Minority casts?

Then you will have your answer.

Guardians of the Galaxy - Zoe Saldana
Let's be Cops - Damon Wayans Jr.
The Book of Life - Zoe Saldana, Ice Cube
The Expendables 3 - Wesley Snipes, Terry Crews
Selma - David Oyelowo, Cuba Gooding Jr., Niecy Nash, Lorraine Toussaint
The Equalizer - Denzel Washington
A Most Violent Year - David Oyelowo
That Awkward Moment - Michael B. Jordan
Dear White People - Most of the cast... too long to type them all out
Draft Day - although to be fair, most of the black people were actually athletes playing themselves, so I'm not sure that counts
Ride Along - Ice Cube, Kevin Hart
No Good Deed - Idris Elba, Taraji P. Henson
Kite - Samuel L. Jackson
Dolphin Tale 2 - Morgan Freeman
About Last Night - Kevin Hart, Michael Ealy, Regina Hall, Joy Bryant
Reasonable Doubt - Samuel L. Jackson

That's 17 out of the first 200 titles released in 2014 that I looked through. I'm not looking through any more. I only listed movies where the leads or major supporting characters were black, i didn't count movies where the major characters were other minorities. There were over 2000 movies released in 2014 so far.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Seriously? Did you really just make this observation as if it is some sort of surprise?

No.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

But William Macy in a supporting role does not mean that all white actors to follow him will be relegated to supporting roles, or the audiences will expect all white actors to be relegated to supporting roles, nor is there a racialized history at play that triggers certain expectations of Macy in all his supporting roles. Macy in a supporting role is not by necessity made exotic or mystical. He is still normal.

I don't think anything you've said here applies to black actors.

Samuel L. Jackson (or Will Smith or Morgan Freeman or Eddie Murphy or Michael Clarke Duncan or Laurence Fishburne or Mos Def or any of a humongous list of well known and well respected black actors) in a supporting role does not mean that all black actors to follow him will be relegated to supporting roles, or the audiences will expect all black actors to be relegated to supporting roles. Samuel L. Jackson in a supporting role is not by necessity made exotic or mystical. He is still normal.

Well, okay. Samuel L. Jackson is pretty much never "normal" in any of his roles, supporting or otherwise, but you get the idea, right?

The piece I will grant is that there is a history. Because there has historically been a significant amount of racism in the US, there is a history of that racism in movies, and in movie roles available to black people. Historically they were introduced to film in minor, supporting roles. This is true.

But to insist that this is still true is to deny the achievements of so many accomplished actors and actresses, so many stars of today that it leaves me baffled. There is no one who could possibly deny that Samuel L. Jackson, Will Smith, Morgan Freeman, Eddie Murphy, Michael Clarke Duncan, Laurence Fishburne, Mos Def, Whoopi Goldberg, Rosario Dawson, Denzel Washington, Wesley Snipes, Halle Berry, Jamie Foxx, Don Cheadle, Zoe Saldana, and lots more that I'm just not remembering right now, are all top notch, unparalleled actors in their own right. Not a one of those is in any way relegated to supporting roles.

Athena, as much as I respect you... on this you are Ahab.

A supporting role is not necessarily always the magic negro, but the magic negro is almost always a supporting role, and one where the magic negro surrenders power to the white person seeking growth and transformation..

I am not, nor have I claimed that the only roles black people ever play are magic negro roles, but the magic negro as stereotype is a real category and it is used ALOT. So much so that it crowds out other roles that could be available to actor if not for Hollywood's love of the "Genie and Aladdin" story line the magic negro plays so well into.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

My review and critique of the movie

The Help

http://frdb.talkfreethought.org/blog.php?b=384

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

My review and critique of the movie

The Help

http://frdb.talkfreethought.org/blog.php?b=384

Can't see it, get an error.

The Help was a great movie that showed how White people could help Black people help themselves.

 

[Emily Lake]

The studies conducted have shown that whites are more likely to associate black people with words like ghost, paranormal and spirit. Which in turn may help explain differences in pain treatment for blacks vs whites and how black juveniles are considered more adult when "judging culpability."

The study only tested white people, which leaves open the question of whether black people also believe black people to be more "superhuman" than white people.

Beyond that, the "conclusions" drawn from the study are all hypotheses of the authors, and aren't actually based in fact. They are all things being surmised by the authors as possible consequences or as possible explanations for the survey results that they saw. They haven't actually tested or studied whether any of their hypotheses hold true.

In the case of the first study, the word association study, there simply is no white counterpart to voodoo. And voodoo is an overwhelmingly black tradition. If they had included phrases like "snake handler", "speaking in tongues", "faith healer" and "stigmata" I suspect those would have been much more strongly associated with white people. The actual words that they chose to use in their association could very feasibly introduce bias.

In the second study, there are many possible explanations. The questions asked of an internet audience are:

1) Which person "is more likely to have superhuman skin that is thick enough that it can withstand the pain of burning hot coals?"
2) Which person "is more capable of using their supernatural powers to suppress hunger and thirst?"
3) Which person "is more capable of using supernatural powers to read a person's mind by touching the person's head?"
4) Which person "is more capable of surviving a fall from an airplane without breaking a bone through the use of supernatural powers?"
5) Which person "has supernatural quickness that makes them capable of running faster than a fighter jet?"
6) Which person "has supernatural strength that makes them capable of lifting up a tank?"

Now... if these are the pictures you have to choose from, who are you going to choose for which questions?


It might also depend on how much the pictures reminded them of Will smith in Hancock ... The point that I am ineptly making is that there's an immense amount of speculatory inference in these sorts of studies. Unless they're extremely carefully controlled, the opportunity for bias is very, very large. The fact that these studies surveyed only white people, and did not use a control group, makes me very skeptical of the degree of care taken in controlling for bias.

The lack of care given to the conclusions drawn from obviously incomplete and insufficient information further erodes my confidence in the studies themselves.

 

[Emily Lake]

The Red Violin, The Negotiator, and oddly enough, the Star Wars Prequel.

It was intended as humor. I seem to have failed.

Not minor roles. Inferior roles. An entire race was type casted to playing servants, at best wisecracking servants.

I'm not disputing that this occurred. I don't, however, think that it reflects the entirety of roles in Hollywood today.

The problem, I think is that there are not many black roles in Hollywood, unless gangs are involved, it is about Africa, or is a Civil Rights related film. There are more aliens serving on the Enterprise the Into the Darkness film than blacks.

Yes and no. Yes, in general pieces, minorities are underrepresented because Hollywood (and america) is still on the "what I expect to see" side of the line, much to my displeasure. No, because some license should be given for appropriateness. If, for example, the movie is a period piece about Vikings or 14th century Sweden or something similar, then it would be as anachronistic to cast black leads in that as it would be to place Pepsi cans in a caveman movie. On the other hand, however, I have no good explanation for why only one out of several hundred Jedi was black. Nor for why there weren't more minorities on the USS Enterprise.

Minorities are certainly underrepresented. But they aren't absent altogether. And to counter Athena's point, they certainly aren't relegated to the role of magical support characters.

 

[Emily Lake]

I don't think anything you've said here applies to black actors.

Samuel L. Jackson (or Will Smith or Morgan Freeman or Eddie Murphy or Michael Clarke Duncan or Laurence Fishburne or Mos Def or any of a humongous list of well known and well respected black actors) in a supporting role does not mean that all black actors to follow him will be relegated to supporting roles, or the audiences will expect all black actors to be relegated to supporting roles. Samuel L. Jackson in a supporting role is not by necessity made exotic or mystical. He is still normal.

Well, okay. Samuel L. Jackson is pretty much never "normal" in any of his roles, supporting or otherwise, but you get the idea, right?

The piece I will grant is that there is a history. Because there has historically been a significant amount of racism in the US, there is a history of that racism in movies, and in movie roles available to black people. Historically they were introduced to film in minor, supporting roles. This is true.

But to insist that this is still true is to deny the achievements of so many accomplished actors and actresses, so many stars of today that it leaves me baffled. There is no one who could possibly deny that Samuel L. Jackson, Will Smith, Morgan Freeman, Eddie Murphy, Michael Clarke Duncan, Laurence Fishburne, Mos Def, Whoopi Goldberg, Rosario Dawson, Denzel Washington, Wesley Snipes, Halle Berry, Jamie Foxx, Don Cheadle, Zoe Saldana, and lots more that I'm just not remembering right now, are all top notch, unparalleled actors in their own right. Not a one of those is in any way relegated to supporting roles.

Athena, as much as I respect you... on this you are Ahab.

A supporting role is not necessarily always the magic negro, but the magic negro is almost always a supporting role, and one where the magic negro surrenders power to the white person seeking growth and transformation..

I am not, nor have I claimed that the only roles black people ever play are magic negro roles, but the magic negro as stereotype is a real category and it is used ALOT. So much so that it crowds out other roles that could be available to actor if not for Hollywood's love of the "Genie and Aladdin" story line the magic negro plays so well into.

Athena, I think you're forcing race into a plot device that is not dependent on race. The plot device of "super helpful transient character who gives the lead the insight necessary to fix the problem and finish the movie" is a well-established role. But it exists outside of race. What you seem to be asking for is that black people be excluded from that role. You're asking that black people be made superior to that role, and that only inferior races be relegated to such inferior roles as MacGuffins.

In fact, you appear to be asking that black people be cast in leading roles and major roles only, and never be relegated to such inferior places as supporting cast or extras, as those are beneath them.

This may not be your intention... but this is what I am inferring from both your position, your tenacity, and your tone. I very gladly invite you to set me straight

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Is this a good time to mention I like Cleveland in The Family Guy. He is a character that is black, not the black character.

It was intended as humor. I seem to have failed.

No, it was just such a short list, I thought I'd put it out there.

Not minor roles. Inferior roles. An entire race was type casted to playing servants, at best wisecracking servants.

I'm not disputing that this occurred. I don't, however, think that it reflects the entirety of roles in Hollywood today.

No one is claiming that. My point was that the actors were held back to playing primarily inferior roles and never allowed to do more. It wasn't that racism was being condoned on the big screen.

The problem, I think is that there are not many black roles in Hollywood, unless gangs are involved, it is about Africa, or is a Civil Rights related film. There are more aliens serving on the Enterprise the Into the Darkness film than blacks.

Yes and no. Yes, in general pieces, minorities are underrepresented because Hollywood (and america) is still on the "what I expect to see" side of the line, much to my displeasure. No, because some license should be given for appropriateness. If, for example, the movie is a period piece about Vikings or 14th century Sweden or something similar, then it would be as anachronistic to cast black leads in that as it would be to place Pepsi cans in a caveman movie.

I don't think AthenaAwakened is particularly worried about why there are no blacks in The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo.

On the other hand, however, I have no good explanation for why only one out of several hundred Jedi was black. Nor for why there weren't more minorities on the USS Enterprise.

Minorities are certainly underrepresented. But they aren't absent altogether. And to counter Athena's point, they certainly aren't relegated to the role of magical support characters.

I would agree and think we generally are standing on the same ground. I do feel that the "magical negro" is being called out, when the character can pretty much just be "magical" regardless the race... though typically white or black. Another came to mind, the Napoleon Dynamite guy in Just Like Heaven.

 

[funinspace]

Not minor roles. Inferior roles. An entire race was type casted to playing servants, at best wisecracking servants.

I'm not disputing that this occurred. I don't, however, think that it reflects the entirety of roles in Hollywood today.

The problem, I think is that there are not many black roles in Hollywood, unless gangs are involved, it is about Africa, or is a Civil Rights related film. There are more aliens serving on the Enterprise the Into the Darkness film than blacks.

Yes and no. Yes, in general pieces, minorities are underrepresented because Hollywood (and america) is still on the "what I expect to see" side of the line, much to my displeasure. No, because some license should be given for appropriateness. If, for example, the movie is a period piece about Vikings or 14th century Sweden or something similar, then it would be as anachronistic to cast black leads in that as it would be to place Pepsi cans in a caveman movie. On the other hand, however, I have no good explanation for why only one out of several hundred Jedi was black. Nor for why there weren't more minorities on the USS Enterprise.

Minorities are certainly underrepresented. But they aren't absent altogether. And to counter Athena's point, they certainly aren't relegated to the role of magical support characters.

Well just on the latest Star Trek saga...this is getting kind of weird to me. The latest Star Trek movie leading roles comes in around 10 people. The US is about 12% black, so they got their 1 slot. Asians should have only gotten a half-Asian, but got a whole one. I think the only main US ethnic grouping left out were the 16% Hispanic category (though I don’t know actor backgrounds very well). It even has a whole Russian… I guess women could also complain that they only got 2 of the slots.

When scanning down the IMDB long list of the cast with pics (50-70), I saw 8-12 other black actors, including one playing a Klingon….I'm not sure if there was a slot for 1 native American in that 50-70 names...

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm not disputing that this occurred. I don't, however, think that it reflects the entirety of roles in Hollywood today.

The problem, I think is that there are not many black roles in Hollywood, unless gangs are involved, it is about Africa, or is a Civil Rights related film. There are more aliens serving on the Enterprise the Into the Darkness film than blacks.

Yes and no. Yes, in general pieces, minorities are underrepresented because Hollywood (and america) is still on the "what I expect to see" side of the line, much to my displeasure. No, because some license should be given for appropriateness. If, for example, the movie is a period piece about Vikings or 14th century Sweden or something similar, then it would be as anachronistic to cast black leads in that as it would be to place Pepsi cans in a caveman movie. On the other hand, however, I have no good explanation for why only one out of several hundred Jedi was black. Nor for why there weren't more minorities on the USS Enterprise.

Minorities are certainly underrepresented. But they aren't absent altogether. And to counter Athena's point, they certainly aren't relegated to the role of magical support characters.

Well just on the latest Star Trek saga...this is getting kind of weird to me. The latest Star Trek movie leading roles comes in around 10 people. The US is about 12% black, so they got their 1 slot. Asians should have only gotten a half-Asian, but got a whole one. I think the only main US ethnic grouping left out were the 16% Hispanic category (though I don’t know actor backgrounds very well). It even has a whole Russian… I guess women could also complain that they only got 2 of the slots.

When scanning down the IMDB long list of the cast with pics (50-70), I saw 8-12 other black actors, including one playing a Klingon….I'm not sure if there was a slot for 1 native American in that 50-70 names...

The main crew is kind of locked in. Can't complain there. I meant more the characters across the bridge and ship.

 

[funinspace]

When scanning down the IMDB long list of the cast with pics (50-70), I saw 8-12 other black actors, including one playing a Klingon….I'm not sure if there was a slot for 1 native American in that 50-70 names...

The main crew is kind of locked in. Can't complain there. I meant more the characters across the bridge and ship.

Uhm, ok....12% of 50 -70 characters, is 6 - 8 black slots. I counted well into that range just going by folks who had pics, and weren't just "voices".

 

[AthenaAwakened]

A supporting role is not necessarily always the magic negro, but the magic negro is almost always a supporting role, and one where the magic negro surrenders power to the white person seeking growth and transformation..

I am not, nor have I claimed that the only roles black people ever play are magic negro roles, but the magic negro as stereotype is a real category and it is used ALOT. So much so that it crowds out other roles that could be available to actor if not for Hollywood's love of the "Genie and Aladdin" story line the magic negro plays so well into.

Athena, I think you're forcing race into a plot device that is not dependent on race. The plot device of "super helpful transient character who gives the lead the insight necessary to fix the problem and finish the movie" is a well-established role. But it exists outside of race. What you seem to be asking for is that black people be excluded from that role. You're asking that black people be made superior to that role, and that only inferior races be relegated to such inferior roles as MacGuffins.

In fact, you appear to be asking that black people be cast in leading roles and major roles only, and never be relegated to such inferior places as supporting cast or extras, as those are beneath them.

This may not be your intention... but this is what I am inferring from both your position, your tenacity, and your tone. I very gladly invite you to set me straight

Race needs not be forced, it si already there.

Don't believe me.

There are hundreds if not thousands of interviews with black actors, writers, directors, cinematographers who speak to the lack of roles and the lack of choice in the roles offered in Hollywood.

Look 'em up.

Unless they too are forcing race into the issue.

Viola Davis Laments Hollywood Relegating Black Actresses To Marginalized Roles

Racial barriers still hold back Hollywood's black talent


Top Hollywood Movies Still Lack Hispanics In Leading Roles, Study Finds

Black star, white ceiling: Why can't Lupita Nyong'o find a role worthy of her?

you can start with these.

 

[untermensche]

There are hundreds if not thousands of interviews with black actors, writers, directors, cinematographers who speak to the lack of roles and the lack of choice in the roles offered in Hollywood.

There need to be more black producers.