White Supremacists - We aren’t all mentally ill

[Jimmy Higgins]

White Supremacists were in arms, metaphorically, over allegations that the shooters in the recent El Paso and Dayton were mentally ill.

“Just because I’m a supremacist and realize God endowed the white man to rule over all other people doesn’t mean I’m mentally ill,” stated Mitch Hollands of El Paso, Texas.

Similar retorts were put into the national conversation by White Supremacists across America over the last couple of days. The volume of the protests appeared to increase after President Trump announced that America must reject White Nationalism and that mental illness was the source of the violence.

Posters at 8chan were notably upset. One user named “gasdajuws” stated “My beliefs that Jews and Homosexuals are deviants and the Lord ordained us to rid the world of such pestilence is an American protected right to believe.

“The Government wants to make thought a crime. Just because one Supremacist attacked the mongrels doesn’t mean we are all a danger.”

The hashtag #notallsupremacists spread amongst the 8chan forums, Twitter, and Facebook. Even some French and other European white supremacists began posting ‘Je suis Supremacist de American.’

The national debate has varied in potential causes of gun derived mass murders in the US including gun laws, the media, national mental health policies, white nationalism, and video games. The US President citing all of these as having roles in creating the venues that lead to these attacks.

Many online disagreed. “There is nothing inherent in white nationalism that leads people to commit hateful acts,” noted poster ‘witerite’ on 8chan. “We love our nation and everyone we think who belongs in it.”

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[Patooka]

I agree that white supremacists aren't mentally ill. They're just a pack of fucking cunts. Fuck em.

 

[Toni]

“There is nothing inherent in white nationalism that leads people to commit hateful acts,” noted poster ‘witerite’ on 8chan. “We love our nation and everyone we think who belongs in it.”

And there we have it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

“There is nothing inherent in white nationalism that leads people to commit hateful acts,” noted poster ‘witerite’ on 8chan. “We love our nation and everyone we think who belongs in it.”

And there we have it.

Well yes, I wrote the whole thing and that was the point, nuanced and all.

There seems to be an odd line that some want to draw. At what point does white nationalism become mental illness. Only because they aim to fulfill want white nationalism demands? What type of crazed logic is that?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

“There is nothing inherent in white nationalism that leads people to commit hateful acts,” noted poster ‘witerite’ on 8chan. “We love our nation and everyone we think who belongs in it.”

And there we have it.

Well yes, I wrote the whole thing and that was the point, nuanced and all.

There seems to be an odd line that some want to draw. At what point does white nationalism become mental illness. Only because they aim to fulfill want white nationalism demands? What type of crazed logic is that?

Well, yes. That would actually be the point at which it becomes a mental illness. Sort of like how someone can be paranoid and always double check that the doors are locked and another guy can be paranoid and spend every evening hiding behind his couch with a gun because he’s afraid that They are about to come get him. The second guy is mentally ill there.

One of the key requirements of classifying something as a mental illness is the detrimental effect it has on your life and the lives of others. If you simply hate non-whites but that doesn’t lead to you doing anything, you’re a moron, but you’re a sane moron.

 

[Toni]

Well yes, I wrote the whole thing and that was the point, nuanced and all.

There seems to be an odd line that some want to draw. At what point does white nationalism become mental illness. Only because they aim to fulfill want white nationalism demands? What type of crazed logic is that?

Well, yes. That would actually be the point at which it becomes a mental illness. Sort of like how someone can be paranoid and always double check that the doors are locked and another guy can be paranoid and spend every evening hiding behind his couch with a gun because he’s afraid that They are about to come get him. The second guy is mentally ill there.

One of the key requirements of classifying something as a mental illness is the detrimental effect it has on your life and the lives of others. If you simply hate non-whites but that doesn’t lead to you doing anything, you’re a moron, but you’re a sane moron.

Eh, I don't agree that simply being a white suprimest is benign, even if you don't join any organizations, burn crosses, recruit, etc. Even if you confine your white supremist views to your own family and friends and are even polite to the non-white people who live next door or work at the stores you visit, etc. you can still do harm. Kids see everything.

I think that being a white supremist is a bit like being a sociopath. Maybe it's a specialized kind of sociopathy. They lack empathy for non-whites, blame non-whites for their own problems and the ills of the world and excuse their own behavior. This is a sociopath. It sounds a lot like a casual white supremist. Sociopathy seems to be learned, a product of the environment and perhaps abuse or childhood trauma. Sociopaths are capable of limited empathy for some. In this case, perhaps a few friends and associates, such as other white supremists.

I think that white supremists are like jihadists and other extreme nationalists and racists. And that it's all learned behavior and is all a lot like socipathy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/05/opinion/white-supremacy-terrorism.html

White supremacists, like their Islamist counterparts, explicitly seek to use violence to create a climate of fear and chaos that can then be exploited to reshape society in their own image. Their recruitment videos share an emphasis on the lifestyle they purport to offer recruits — one of “purity,” militancy and physical fitness. While jihadis share beheading videos, right-wing extremists glory in the live streaming of the deadly attack on two mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand. While Islamic State supporters communicate through an online platform called Telegram, white supremacists tend to do so through another platform, 8chan.

One group for neo-Nazis, founded by a veteran of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, has taken the analogy to its logical conclusion, calling itself “The Base” — a direct translation of the meaning of the word Al Qaeda. The organization also uses similar black flag imagery.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Eh, I don't agree that simply being a white suprimest is benign, even if you don't join any organizations, burn crosses, recruit, etc. Even if you confine your white supremist views to your own family and friends and are even polite to the non-white people who live next door or work at the stores you visit, etc. you can still do harm. Kids see everything.

I think that being a white supremist is a bit like being a sociopath. Maybe it's a specialized kind of sociopathy. They lack empathy for non-whites, blame non-whites for their own problems and the ills of the world and excuse their own behavior. This is a sociopath. It sounds a lot like a casual white supremist. Sociopathy seems to be learned, a product of the environment and perhaps abuse or childhood trauma. Sociopaths are capable of limited empathy for some. In this case, perhaps a few friends and associates, such as other white supremists.

I think that white supremists are like jihadists and other extreme nationalists and racists. And that it's all learned behavior and is all a lot like socipathy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/05/opinion/white-supremacy-terrorism.html

White supremacists, like their Islamist counterparts, explicitly seek to use violence to create a climate of fear and chaos that can then be exploited to reshape society in their own image. Their recruitment videos share an emphasis on the lifestyle they purport to offer recruits — one of “purity,” militancy and physical fitness. While jihadis share beheading videos, right-wing extremists glory in the live streaming of the deadly attack on two mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand. While Islamic State supporters communicate through an online platform called Telegram, white supremacists tend to do so through another platform, 8chan.

One group for neo-Nazis, founded by a veteran of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, has taken the analogy to its logical conclusion, calling itself “The Base” — a direct translation of the meaning of the word Al Qaeda. The organization also uses similar black flag imagery.

Ya, but that doesn't classify it as a mental illness. You can't just write off jihadists and white supremacists with an "Oh, they're insane sociopaths". They have sane reasons for the positions they take, even if those reasons are lame, stupid and evil.

Saying that it's not a mental illness is light years away from saying that it's benign. It's saying that it's possible to be a bad guy without being insane.

 

[repoman]

Good video by my favorite white nationalist:

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well yes, I wrote the whole thing and that was the point, nuanced and all.

There seems to be an odd line that some want to draw. At what point does white nationalism become mental illness. Only because they aim to fulfill want white nationalism demands? What type of crazed logic is that?

Well, yes. That would actually be the point at which it becomes a mental illness. Sort of like how someone can be paranoid and always double check that the doors are locked and another guy can be paranoid and spend every evening hiding behind his couch with a gun because he’s afraid that They are about to come get him. The second guy is mentally ill there.

One of the key requirements of classifying something as a mental illness is the detrimental effect it has on your life and the lives of others. If you simply hate non-whites but that doesn’t lead to you doing anything, you’re a moron, but you’re a sane moron.

Wow, that is so absolutely wrong. You are conflating what is criminal verses what is mental illness. Plenty of people with mental illness, dare I say the vast majority, haven’t shot up a school.

Gargantuan amounts of self pity, hatred, and entitlement doesn’t automatically equate to mental illness.

 

[Toni]

Eh, I don't agree that simply being a white suprimest is benign, even if you don't join any organizations, burn crosses, recruit, etc. Even if you confine your white supremist views to your own family and friends and are even polite to the non-white people who live next door or work at the stores you visit, etc. you can still do harm. Kids see everything.

I think that being a white supremist is a bit like being a sociopath. Maybe it's a specialized kind of sociopathy. They lack empathy for non-whites, blame non-whites for their own problems and the ills of the world and excuse their own behavior. This is a sociopath. It sounds a lot like a casual white supremist. Sociopathy seems to be learned, a product of the environment and perhaps abuse or childhood trauma. Sociopaths are capable of limited empathy for some. In this case, perhaps a few friends and associates, such as other white supremists.

I think that white supremists are like jihadists and other extreme nationalists and racists. And that it's all learned behavior and is all a lot like socipathy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/05/opinion/white-supremacy-terrorism.html

White supremacists, like their Islamist counterparts, explicitly seek to use violence to create a climate of fear and chaos that can then be exploited to reshape society in their own image. Their recruitment videos share an emphasis on the lifestyle they purport to offer recruits — one of “purity,” militancy and physical fitness. While jihadis share beheading videos, right-wing extremists glory in the live streaming of the deadly attack on two mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand. While Islamic State supporters communicate through an online platform called Telegram, white supremacists tend to do so through another platform, 8chan.

One group for neo-Nazis, founded by a veteran of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, has taken the analogy to its logical conclusion, calling itself “The Base” — a direct translation of the meaning of the word Al Qaeda. The organization also uses similar black flag imagery.

Ya, but that doesn't classify it as a mental illness. You can't just write off jihadists and white supremacists with an "Oh, they're insane sociopaths". They have sane reasons for the positions they take, even if those reasons are lame, stupid and evil.

Saying that it's not a mental illness is light years away from saying that it's benign. It's saying that it's possible to be a bad guy without being insane.

Nobody's writing them off. Being a sociopath is not being insane. Having a mental illness is not being insane. Drawing actual comparisons of behavior exhibited by such and such a group with a clinical definition of a mental illness is not designating that group's ideology or behavior as benign or acceptable or insane.

In my opinion, it IS useful to recognize that like sociopathy, white supremacy and jihadism and whatever other racial or cultural extremest ideology is learned behavior and possibly has its roots in trauma and abuse is not letting anybody at all off the hook.

What I am saying is that they do have reasons for the positions they take. Those reasons might be lame or stupid or evil or counterfactual or not based in reality as we see it. But they are reasons and likely based on trauma and abuse or some circumstance or events that made them become radicalized. Why are white Americans radicalized to hate brown or black people or people with different religions or cultures? Why are jihadists radicalized to hate Jews and non-jihadists?

Asking those questions is not saying that they are insane or that we cannot and should not take action to limit the worst of their behaviors.

 

[southernhybrid]

I'm not convinced that most of these people are mentally ill. Their behavior is more like an extreme form of tribalism, often perpetuated by other like minded members of the tribe. In this case, members of the white tribe.

Social media allows the more extreme members of this white tribe to find each other and make what most of us would classify as horrid, extreme behavior, seem like perfectly normal behavior for a higher cause. Without the influence of others, including some of our political leaders, there wouldn't be so much violence. But, when Trump asks what can be done about this invasion, a term that he has used repeatedly, and a member of his audience says, "Shoot em", and Trump smirks or laughs, he is making it appear as if shooting the invaders, to use his favorite term again, is an acceptable way of taking care of the invasion.

A lot of people have hateful thoughts, but most are able to suppress these thoughts or at least not do anything violent in regards to this hate. When political or other leaders make it seem as if it's okay to use violent means to destroy the enemy, some people will feel as if they are part of a righteous cause. People do influence each other. It's certainly possible that younger people are more easily manipulated, as we now know that the brain isn't completely mature until around the age of 25. This may be twisted or irrational, but I don't think I'd equate it with mental illness. Humans have a long history of violence and tribalism. Unfortunately, we haven't found a way to overcome this part of our nature.

Think of Nazi Germany and Hitler. Were most of these people mentally ill? Or were these people riled up by a leader who used hate and bigotry to motivate people to accept or commit violence acts against a perceived enemy?

 

[Toni]

I'm not convinced that most of these people are mentally ill. Their behavior is more like an extreme form of tribalism, often perpetuated by other like minded members of the tribe. In this case, members of the white tribe.

Social media allows the more extreme members of this white tribe to find each other and make what most of us would classify as horrid, extreme behavior, seem like perfectly normal behavior for a higher cause. Without the influence of others, including some of our political leaders, there wouldn't be so much violence. But, when Trump asks what can be done about this invasion, a term that he has used repeatedly, and a member of his audience says, "Shoot em", and Trump smirks or laughs, he is making it appear as if shooting the invaders, to use his favorite term again, is an acceptable way of taking care of the invasion.

A lot of people have hateful thoughts, but most are able to suppress these thoughts or at least not do anything violent in regards to this hate. When political or other leaders make it seem as if it's okay to use violent means to destroy the enemy, some people will feel as if they are part of a righteous cause. People do influence each other. It's certainly possible that younger people are more easily manipulated, as we now know that the brain isn't completely mature until around the age of 25. This may be twisted or irrational, but I don't think I'd equate it with mental illness. Humans have a long history of violence and tribalism. Unfortunately, we haven't found a way to overcome this part of our nature.

Think of Nazi Germany and Hitler. Were most of these people mentally ill? Or were these people riled up by a leader who used hate and bigotry to motivate people to accept or commit violence acts against a perceived enemy?

I think that most of the German people who went along with Hitler and the Nazis were bigots and cowards. But the true believers? Definitely a mental illness. Sociopaths and in the case of leaders: psychopaths.

Lots of us, probably most or even all of us sometimes have hateful thoughts and also manage not to do violence because of those thoughts. People who slide past the fleeting moments of anger and despair and hatred surely have some kind of illness.

Not every psychopath is evil. Many and probably most try their best to fit into the world and to emulate emotions and empathy that they don't feel. They don't try to harm other people. There is simply something broken inside that doesn't allow them to feel empathy towards others.

I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist or a sociologist or a political scientist or even an historian.

I'm just saying that the behaviors that are exhibited by white nationalists and jihadists and other extremists have a lot in common with text book definitions of sociopaths and psychopaths.

I'm not suggesting that a psychiatrist would diagnose a white supremacist as a sociopath or a psychopath. But definitions are pretty much dead on from my layman's perspective.

I'm suggesting that if we really want to move past such violent tribalism, we need to look at root causes. Because this shit keeps happening.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

White Supremacists - We aren't all Mentally Disturbed and Paranoid to the point where we Murder those we hold to be Inferior.

White Supremacists - We aren't all Mentally Disturbed and Paranoid to the point where we Murder those we hold to be Inferior.

I think that's more accurate and informative than the original title.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm not convinced that most of these people are mentally ill. Their behavior is more like an extreme form of tribalism, often perpetuated by other like minded members of the tribe. In this case, members of the white tribe.

Social media allows the more extreme members of this white tribe to find each other and make what most of us would classify as horrid, extreme behavior, seem like perfectly normal behavior for a higher cause. Without the influence of others, including some of our political leaders, there wouldn't be so much violence. But, when Trump asks what can be done about this invasion, a term that he has used repeatedly, and a member of his audience says, "Shoot em", and Trump smirks or laughs, he is making it appear as if shooting the invaders, to use his favorite term again, is an acceptable way of taking care of the invasion.

A lot of people have hateful thoughts, but most are able to suppress these thoughts or at least not do anything violent in regards to this hate. When political or other leaders make it seem as if it's okay to use violent means to destroy the enemy, some people will feel as if they are part of a righteous cause. People do influence each other. It's certainly possible that younger people are more easily manipulated, as we now know that the brain isn't completely mature until around the age of 25. This may be twisted or irrational, but I don't think I'd equate it with mental illness. Humans have a long history of violence and tribalism. Unfortunately, we haven't found a way to overcome this part of our nature.

Think of Nazi Germany and Hitler. Were most of these people mentally ill? Or were these people riled up by a leader who used hate and bigotry to motivate people to accept or commit violence acts against a perceived enemy?

I think that most of the German people who went along with Hitler and the Nazis were bigots and cowards. But the true believers? Definitely a mental illness. Sociopaths and in the case of leaders: psychopaths.

Lots of us, probably most or even all of us sometimes have hateful thoughts and also manage not to do violence because of those thoughts. People who slide past the fleeting moments of anger and despair and hatred surely have some kind of illness.

Not every psychopath is evil. Many and probably most try their best to fit into the world and to emulate emotions and empathy that they don't feel. They don't try to harm other people. There is simply something broken inside that doesn't allow them to feel empathy towards others.

I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist or a sociologist or a political scientist or even an historian.

I'm just saying that the behaviors that are exhibited by white nationalists and jihadists and other extremists have a lot in common with text book definitions of sociopaths and psychopaths.

This starts getting into the weeds. There are different levels of jihadism. You have the structural stuff with the people at the top. They have plans, an organization they are running, organizational goals, founded around certain beliefs. Being a top the pyramid, are the megalomaniacs, psychopaths, sociopaths? Just how much do they believe verses how much is it a foil against others?

Then we have the people at the bottom who are discovered online. These people aren't "true believers" to start with. They are mentally vulnerable. This vulnerability is played on to convince them into certain ideologies and they become "radicalized". At what point, where is the mental illness?

Then we have the home grown white nationalists. At what point do we view it as mental illness? Many of these people willingly accept these "truths" into their identity. They weren't sought out and reprogrammed like the lowly foot soldier or trophy wife of ISIS. mass murderers. They (supremos, incels) feel underappreciated, forgotten, or simply not what they think they should be given. There is entitlement, self-pity, inertia, ignorance that drives this. And while we have people like the man who shot Gabby Giffords or Andrea Yates were mentally ill, but potentially pushed towards that target by the influence of the right-wing, we have massacres like El Paso and Dayton which occurred with people who were quite sober.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

White Supremacists - We aren't all Mentally Disturbed and Paranoid to the point where we Murder those we hold to be Inferior.

I think that's more accurate and informative than the original title.

That is the point of the article, though. Where is the line between between being mentally ill and white nationalism. It isn't simply pulling the trigger. Mental illness means something. It isn't a cloak to cover over willful ignorance, self-pity, and entitlement. While we musn't confuse my OP with what white nationalists are actually saying, I have no idea what they are saying, it is meant to explore this absurd concept that simply pulling the trigger indicates mental illness. That is too convenient.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

White Supremacists - We aren't all Mentally Disturbed and Paranoid to the point where we Murder those we hold to be Inferior.

I think that's more accurate and informative than the original title.

That is the point of the article, though. Where is the line between between being mentally ill and white nationalism. It isn't simply pulling the trigger. Mental illness means something. It isn't a cloak to cover over willful ignorance, self-pity, and entitlement. While we musn't confuse my OP with what white nationalists are actually saying, I have no idea what they are saying, it is meant to explore this absurd concept that simply pulling the trigger indicates mental illness. That is too convenient.

The line is wherever we draw the line as a society whether it's white supremacism or wanting the Cadillac in your neighbor's driveway. Obviously, many of us vote for white nationalism because we can keep it hidden. Let's hope it never becomes so popular that we become like Nazi Germany or the antebellum South again. But it could happen certainly.

My pet theory concerning racists is that there's some aspect of themselves that they hate and then project onto others in a bid to rid themselves of their perceived impurity.

 

[southernhybrid]

I think I would have to disagree with Toni about psychopaths not being "evil" for lack of a better word. They aren't all violent, but they do other harmful things to other people. They might be financial managers who cheat and give knowingly bad advice to their clients purposely, sometimes for their own benefit. ( not all financial managers are like that ) They might do things to cause division among people. They might be politicians who work to pass laws that harm the average person, while benefitting themselves. They simply lack a moral compass. I read several years ago, that while we don't have adequate treatment for psychopaths, we can see abnormalities in the brains now that we have MRIs and other ways to diagnose certain types of mental illness.

I just don't think we have the evidence to support the idea that all those who commit mass murders are mentally ill. The vast majority of mentally ill folks are harmless, and most would not be able to make detailed plans regarding how to commit a mass murder. When a severely mentally ill person acts violent, it's usually impulsive, not carefully planned. I worked with a woman who was beaten to death with a baseball bat by her grandson because she refused to buy him cigarettes. He certainly might have been mentally ill, as he acted impulsively, without giving his act much thought.

So, I think we need to be very careful about painting these folks as mentally ill. They may be socially isolated. They may be easily manipulated by the wrong people. They may have been treated poorly as children, and want to take out their frustrations on others. Mentally ill folks already suffer enough from stereotyping. So, I think we need a lot more evidence before we blame mental illness on these terrible acts of violence.

Think about gang violence for a minute. Are all gang members who agree to kill someone in order to join the gang, mentally ill, or are they influenced by their peers in the gang? Perfectly sane people are capable of becoming violent, although I will reiterate, that this is more common among young men. Maybe it has to do with immature brains and excessive testosterone. I honestly don't know.
Think of war. Why is it that it's easier to recruit younger people during times of war? Many soldiers and Marines are or were in their teens when they became warriors. They were indoctrinated to believe that killing the enemy was a good thing. When I was married to my ex, and he was drafted as a non combatant CO, I sometimes watched the way the combat recruits were indoctrinated, as the laundromat for the base was right next to the barracks. They were taught that the Vietnamese were the enemy and needed to be killed. ( I'm not saying making any moral claims about these young men. I see them as victims. ) I just think what's going on now in the US, and in many parts of the world, regardless if it's Muslim extremism or White extremism, has little or nothing to do with mental illness. It has to do with identifying with an in-group that influences them in what most of us would consider harmful ways.

Anyway, that's how I see it. I'm not one to argue endlessly. But, regardless of the causes, it's certainly something to be concerned about. And, even if most of these people aren't mentally ill, I wold agree with anyone who claims that we have failed those who do suffer from mental illness.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

A decent article on the BBC.

Analysts say these killers share a common ideology, one of violence, bigotry and hate, and are fuelled by people they meet in online communities such as 4chan and 8chan, places where they have been able to discuss freely white nationalism and other virulent forms of racism.

El Paso shooting: Has US neglected fight against white extremism?

 

[ronburgundy]

Certainly the definition of "insane" cannot be that you actually act on your irrational fears and beliefs. In fact, it would arguably be "insane" not to react to your fears and to act on your sincere beliefs. If you think a poisonous snake is literally in your bed, to not physically react and either get away from it or kill it, would suggest a mental disorder.

This fact that beliefs typically and sanely lead to corresponding action is what makes any white supremacists inherently a real threat, same goes for theists that sincerely believe most of the ideas conveyed in the Bible or Quran, regardless of their actions to this point. In addition, the fears and beliefs that define these ideologies can be but are not necessarily a product of insanity, if a persons' experiences are such that "normal" brains cold produce such beliefs under those circumstances. Unfortunately, most normal people learn most of what they fear and believe by conforming to others around them, rather than reasoning about the plausibility based on evidence. Thus, if a person encounters many other white supremacists, then their own white supremacy probably a product of a normal brain, and the more white supremacists there are the less likely that "insanity" is required to produce it.

OTOH, white supremacy (and religious fundamentalism) generally entail so ignoring so much available information and being consumed by fears that people who do suffer from some types of brain disorders would be more likely to arrive at and maintain such beliefs. And if the white supremacists and religionists who are most likely to actually act upon the beliefs that presume that non-white or non-believers are threat, then that is not b/c such actions are "insane" but b/c their insanity makes them more likely to sincerely and fully hold these inherently dangerous beliefs, whereas many of the non-acting promoters of these ideologies are not sincere believers, but rather derive some other material or psychological satisfaction out of pretending they are and espousing that rhetoric.