Who shot down MH17

[Ford]

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/flight_mh17_searching_for_the_truth_of_a_war_crime_20150111

Few people know more about the air-combat-weapon systems of the former Eastern Bloc than Rupert Smid. He is a leading expert on air combat. Throughout our investigation we met him as part of our reporting in several countries including the Ukraine, Russia, Austria and the Netherlands. His name is not really Smid – but he can’t reveal his true identity. He works for an organization that does not want to be involved in this issue. We can only assure you that Rupert Smid is a leading expert on Russian air combat systems.

Smid tells us: “There is no doubt: flight MH17 was shot down by a missile. And this missile was fired from the ground and not from a fighter jet.”

Smid’s information is confirmed by Harry Horlings, a former Dutch fighter pilot, who was trained by the U.S. Air Force. Only a rocket fired from the ground has the explosive power displayed in the destruction of MH17, Horlings says.

A missile launcher stolen by separatists? Fired by accident?

The air combat expert Rupert Smid has no doubt: “Russian missiles are only fired on the command of Russian officers,” he says.

...

The BUK is outdated, but it is a highly complex and deadly system; its mastery requires continuous training. During the Soviet era soldiers learned how to operate the guided missile system at the Institute for Missile Technology in Kiev. The training took five years. The institute in the Ukrainian capital was closed in 1995. Russia continues to train soldiers at missile schools, including one in Smolensk. Many of the former graduates in the Ukraine have left the service, but they remember their time as students.

“It’s not like riding a bicycle,” says one former graduate from the missile institute. The BUK squad needs to be a well-rehearsed team that continuously trains the process. “Even veterans lose touch quickly,” says one former soldier. Today he is a businessman. He does not want his name to be printed.

Viktor Kusovkin, a comrade of Ivan Krasnoproshin, confirms these statements. Kusovkin served in the 53rd Russian air defense brigade in Kursk. After four months of training he was allowed to drive the BUK launcher tow vehicle. We reach him via telephone, Viktor Kusovkin had posted his number on Vkontakte (vk.com). Firing a BUK? That never even came into question for him. “Of course not. You don’t let conscripts fire. That doesn’t work. You have to graduate from a military institute first,” said Kusovkin. “That’s a pretty difficult task. Only officers can do it.”

We asked many experts who could have fired the missile that destroyed MH17. We spoke to separatist leaders: military commander Chodavskij and the deputy prime minister of the self-named Peoples Republic of Dontzk Andrej Purgin. We also asked our international air warfare experts and our witnesses at the site of the launch. We heard the same from graduates of the Institute for Missile Technology in Kiev and former soldiers of the 53rd Air Defense Brigade in Kursk. They all agree, the separatists did not have the know-how to fire a BUK missile. There is hardly any doubt: a Russian officer must have given the order to shoot down MH17.

 

[bilby]

 

[Ford]

It sure did get really quiet in this thread all of a sudden...

 

[Kharakov]

Shhh... the National Sphincter Association is looking for an opening!

 

[Ford]

Really, amazingly quiet around here now.

 

[tupac chopra]

The people who are being very quiet are the US government. What are they hiding?

The Danger of an MH-17 ‘Cold Case’

Either the Russian radar showed the presence of a jetfighter “gaining height” as it closed to within three to five kilometers of the passenger plane – as the Russians claimed in a July 21 press conference – or it didn’t. The Kiev authorities insisted that they had no military aircraft in the area at the time.

But the 34-page Dutch report was silent on the jetfighter question, although noting that the investigators had received Air Traffic Control “surveillance data from the Russian Federation.” The report also was silent on the “dog-not-barking” issue of whether the U.S. government had satellite surveillance that revealed exactly where the supposed ground-to-air missile was launched and who may have fired it.

The Obama administration has asserted knowledge about those facts, but the U.S. government has withheld satellite photos and other intelligence information that could presumably corroborate the charge. Curiously, too, the Dutch report said the investigation received “satellite imagery taken in the days after the occurrence.” Obviously, the more relevant images in assessing blame would be aerial photography in the days and hours before the crash.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The people who are being very quiet are the US government. What are they hiding?

The Danger of an MH-17 ‘Cold Case’

Either the Russian radar showed the presence of a jetfighter “gaining height” as it closed to within three to five kilometers of the passenger plane – as the Russians claimed in a July 21 press conference – or it didn’t. The Kiev authorities insisted that they had no military aircraft in the area at the time.

But the 34-page Dutch report was silent on the jetfighter question, although noting that the investigators had received Air Traffic Control “surveillance data from the Russian Federation.” The report also was silent on the “dog-not-barking” issue of whether the U.S. government had satellite surveillance that revealed exactly where the supposed ground-to-air missile was launched and who may have fired it.

The Obama administration has asserted knowledge about those facts, but the U.S. government has withheld satellite photos and other intelligence information that could presumably corroborate the charge. Curiously, too, the Dutch report said the investigation received “satellite imagery taken in the days after the occurrence.” Obviously, the more relevant images in assessing blame would be aerial photography in the days and hours before the crash.

You keep attaching importance to our keeping secret the details of seeing the launch.

The satellites that detected it are meant for strategic launch detection--of course we aren't going to be giving out details!!

As for aerial photography--where in the world would that come from?? Aerial photography of a war zone is the realm of spy planes, not ordinary commercial photography. Furthermore, such commercial photography isn't done all that often.

A quick check on Google shows the street view images of our house is 19 months old. The satellite view imagery doesn't have a date but appears to be no more recent than fall of 2013.

 

[tupac chopra]

The people who are being very quiet are the US government. What are they hiding?

The Danger of an MH-17 ‘Cold Case’

You keep attaching importance to our keeping secret the details of seeing the launch.
.

Not only me. Quite a few former American intelligence officials are attaching importance as well.

Obama Should Release Ukraine Evidence

With the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over Ukraine turning a local civil war into a U.S. confrontation with Russia, U.S. intelligence veterans urge President Obama to release what evidence he has about the tragedy and silence the hyperbole.

MEMORANDUM FOR: The President

FROM: Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)

SUBJECT: Intelligence on Shoot-Down of Malaysian Plane

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You keep attaching importance to our keeping secret the details of seeing the launch.
.

Not only me. Quite a few former American intelligence officials are attaching importance as well.

Obama Should Release Ukraine Evidence

With the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over Ukraine turning a local civil war into a U.S. confrontation with Russia, U.S. intelligence veterans urge President Obama to release what evidence he has about the tragedy and silence the hyperbole.

MEMORANDUM FOR: The President

FROM: Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)

SUBJECT: Intelligence on Shoot-Down of Malaysian Plane

That doesn't look like a very credible group.

 

[Jayjay]

The people who are being very quiet are the US government. What are they hiding?

The Danger of an MH-17 ‘Cold Case’

Either the Russian radar showed the presence of a jetfighter “gaining height” as it closed to within three to five kilometers of the passenger plane – as the Russians claimed in a July 21 press conference – or it didn’t. The Kiev authorities insisted that they had no military aircraft in the area at the time.

But the 34-page Dutch report was silent on the jetfighter question, although noting that the investigators had received Air Traffic Control “surveillance data from the Russian Federation.” The report also was silent on the “dog-not-barking” issue of whether the U.S. government had satellite surveillance that revealed exactly where the supposed ground-to-air missile was launched and who may have fired it.

The Obama administration has asserted knowledge about those facts, but the U.S. government has withheld satellite photos and other intelligence information that could presumably corroborate the charge. Curiously, too, the Dutch report said the investigation received “satellite imagery taken in the days after the occurrence.” Obviously, the more relevant images in assessing blame would be aerial photography in the days and hours before the crash.

The MH17 flight path claimed by Russians does not match the data in the Dutch safety board report. It is possible (if not likely) that Russians fudged the picture in order ot make it match an alleged fighter.

As for satellite images, we only have Russians claiming that there were satellites over Ukraine during that incident. Even if true, there is no way for even Russia to know what kind of satellites they were and what imaging capabilities they had... and I'm sure Russian military would want to know. It's perfectly reasonable for US to withhold that information.

As for VIPS, their opinion is no different from any other arm chair analysts.

 

[tupac chopra]

The people who are being very quiet are the US government. What are they hiding?

The Danger of an MH-17 ‘Cold Case’

The MH17 flight path claimed by Russians does not match the data in the Dutch safety board report. It is possible (if not likely) that Russians fudged the picture in order ot make it match an alleged fighter..

Possible but extremely unlikely. Russia unlike the USA has gone and made it's data public (in that case). So it can be tested.
On the other hand we have the US government which has along history of telling lies making claims but releasing no evidence.

So you want us to believe.
1. That even though the USA has lied countless times, this time we should believe them even though they won't provide any evidence.
2.That the Russian government is lying even though they released data which can be tested.

 

[barbos]

Dutch press accused their own government of ignoring ukrainian warnings.
Apparently they discovered that ukrainian government warned dutch government about danger right after one of their planes was shot down, dutch government ignored it.
That certainly explains that weird secrecy pact among interested parties.

 

[Jayjay]

The MH17 flight path claimed by Russians does not match the data in the Dutch safety board report. It is possible (if not likely) that Russians fudged the picture in order ot make it match an alleged fighter..

Possible but extremely unlikely. Russia unlike the USA has gone and made it's data public (in that case). So it can be tested.

It has been tested, and found inadequate. The data does not match Dutch Safety Board flight path, it doesn't show a fighter plane climbing before the impact, and what Russia claims is a fighter plane after the impact could be just debris from MH17. In other words, the Russian "data" has been thoroughly debunked.

On the other hand we have the US government which has along history of telling lies making claims but releasing no evidence.

So you want us to believe.
1. That even though the USA has lied countless times, this time we should believe them even though they won't provide any evidence.
2.That the Russian government is lying even though they released data which can be tested.

Russia was caught telling lies during the same press conference. Besides what US has or has not done is not particularly relevant in this case, becuase the Russian evidence fails on its own merit. The conclusions do not depend on data provided by the US. What you have is an accusation that the US somehow has some data that it is covering up, but the only source for the claim that such data even exists is from a Russian press conference that is riddled with lies and misinformation.

 

[Ford]

The people who are being very quiet are the US government.

Near as I can tell, the US government is not participating in this thread.

In any case, you provided a link to a source which clearly puts the blame for downing the airliner on the Russians. Let's look at that again, shall we?

We asked many experts who could have fired the missile that destroyed MH17. We spoke to separatist leaders: military commander Chodavskij and the deputy prime minister of the self-named Peoples Republic of Dontzk Andrej Purgin. We also asked our international air warfare experts and our witnesses at the site of the launch. We heard the same from graduates of the Institute for Missile Technology in Kiev and former soldiers of the 53rd Air Defense Brigade in Kursk. They all agree, the separatists did not have the know-how to fire a BUK missile. There is hardly any doubt: a Russian officer must have given the order to shoot down MH17.

(emphasis added)


Perhaps you'd like to attempt shooting down (pun intended) your own source?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Dutch press accused their own government of ignoring ukrainian warnings.
Apparently they discovered that ukrainian government warned dutch government about danger right after one of their planes was shot down, dutch government ignored it.
That certainly explains that weird secrecy pact among interested parties.

That makes sense. When there's a disaster from ignoring warnings there is usually a big effort to sweep things under the rug and nobody wants to point fingers if they were involved at all.

 

[dystopian]

That makes sense. When there's a disaster from ignoring warnings there is usually a big effort to sweep things under the rug and nobody wants to point fingers if they were involved at all.

Actually, it doesn't make a particularly great deal of sense here;

Governments don't generally try to sweep things under the rug by writing itself public letters about it; which is exactly what happened here. The minister of foreign affairs wrote a letter to the house of representatives explaining that the Ukrainian government had informed them and the press decided (for a very brief moment) that this was some sort of big deal. Of course, what some of the press (and Barbos) claimed about this isn't exactly accurate. What actually happened was that the Ukrainian government informed countries that a military plane had been shot down; they *also* stated the Ukrainian airspace above 9,753KM was still safe which means that the government had no cause to take extra precautions as the airliner operated above that. It should also be pointed out that this was public knowledge; so it wasn't like the Dutch government was withholding this information from airlines.

The only concern some people have uttered about it is that the government didn't inform the airliners... of something that was public knowledge and which the airliners should already have been well aware of.

But I suppose it's easier to deflect the real issue here by pretending there's a conspiracy in the west.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That makes sense. When there's a disaster from ignoring warnings there is usually a big effort to sweep things under the rug and nobody wants to point fingers if they were involved at all.

Actually, it doesn't make a particularly great deal of sense here;

Governments don't generally try to sweep things under the rug by writing itself public letters about it; which is exactly what happened here. The minister of foreign affairs wrote a letter to the house of representatives explaining that the Ukrainian government had informed them and the press decided (for a very brief moment) that this was some sort of big deal. Of course, what some of the press (and Barbos) claimed about this isn't exactly accurate. What actually happened was that the Ukrainian government informed countries that a military plane had been shot down; they *also* stated the Ukrainian airspace above 9,753KM was still safe which means that the government had no cause to take extra precautions as the airliner operated above that. It should also be pointed out that this was public knowledge; so it wasn't like the Dutch government was withholding this information from airlines.

The only concern some people have uttered about it is that the government didn't inform the airliners... of something that was public knowledge and which the airliners should already have been well aware of.

But I suppose it's easier to deflect the real issue here by pretending there's a conspiracy in the west.

Ok, so his report was wrong, no surprise.

The only "conspiracy" I was thinking about was not pointing fingers because they didn't want fingers pointed back.

 

[barbos]

--

 

[barbos]

I merely repeated what dutch press said, that's all.
Fact is, airspace should have been closed. And both Ukraine and Netherlands had information to make such determination at the time.
The real issue here is the fact that Netherlands and Ukraine was knowingly sending civilian planes through a war zone where military planes were regularly shot down.

 

[dystopian]

I merely repeated what dutch press said, that's all.

No, you were trying to deflect Russia's culpability here by trying to imply there's some conspiracy going on among the investigative nations; and attempted to use this to give weight to that deflection. You were; as you have been doing from the start of the whole mess in Ukraine; trying to muddy the waters.

Fact is, airspace should have been closed. And both Ukraine and Netherlands had information to make such determination at the time.

Incorrect. It *may* be the case that the Ukrainian government knew... however, they explicitly informed other countries that airspace above a certain height was still safe: therefore there was absolutely no reason to claim that other governments knew the airspace should have been closed. Furthermore, civilian airliners are not normally targeted during war times, and it would've been a perfectly reasonable thing to assume that it wouldn't have been shot down given the assurances of Ukraine's government about the safety of their airspace and the fact that it's not normal procedure to shoot civilian planes.

Finally, it is not the Dutch government's job to remind Malaysian airliners of something they were already aware of; nor does the Dutch government have the authority to tell airliners they can't fly over the territory of other countries.