Who Should Pay Child Support? (Split from Roe v Wade is on deck)

[Rhea]

In my personal opnion, before we talk about who should pay child support, we should first ensure, for every person, comprehensive sexuality education and free-to-user availability to easily accessible long acting reversible contraceptives (LARCs) and a publicly-funded blitz to develop LARCs for men.

Once that is in place, an the number of unplanned pregnancies is diminished by 95%, then we, IMHO, take a look at what is needed for the sake of the children. In most cases, I oppose forced child support. It sends a horrible, hateful message to the children. I would rather society collectively take care of the child’s needs through access to healthcare and food.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

In my personal opnion, before we talk about who should pay child support, we should first ensure, for every person, comprehensive sexuality education and free-to-user availability to easily accessible long acting reversible contraceptives (LARCs) and a publicly-funded blitz to develop LARCs for men.

Once that is in place, an the number of unplanned pregnancies is diminished by 95%, then we, IMHO, take a look at what is needed for the sake of the children. In most cases, I oppose forced child support. It sends a horrible, hateful message to the children. I would rather society collectively take care of the child’s needs through access to healthcare and food.

That would require people giving a darn about the children. It'll just simplify to "shouldn't have kids you can't afford" argument. They don't care, they just don't want guys to be on the hook for an orgasm.

 

[Toni]

If you don't want the responsibility to have already done the work for that, get snipped.

Do you think that women are as capable and responsible?

Or is this just politically correct gender bigotry. Women can't be expected to take responsibility for their own Choices. Men can.
Is that what you're saying? It sure sounds that way to me. Unapologetic gender bigotry.
Tom

What? Are you postulating that men have sex with women and do not consider that a pregnancy —and an actual child might result from their decision to have sex with a woman?

Women should get the final say about whether to carry a pregnancy to term.

After a child is born, either parent ( or both parents) can be the primary custodial parent, or both parents can decide that it’s in the best interests of all to place the child for adoption. Adoption does require agreement if both parents unless parental rights are severed by the court.

Assuming the child is born and not placed for adoption, both parents contribute financially to the care and feeding and housing and education of that child. In the event that one or both parents are not able to financially provide sufficiently for the upbringing of the child, the state steps in to cover gaps as necessary.

I’ve known enough children well into their adult years to see the damage done by absentee parents. It’s worse when adequate financial resources were not provided/available for the child to receive stable and adequate housing, food, clothing, education, home. Poverty—real poverty is a hard way to grow up.

Don’t be fooled that the willingness of the father to help support the child doesn’t matter—even when the mother is able to financially provide for the child on her own. Even if the father chooses not to have a relationship with the child—it does matter to the child! that at least the dad cared enough to help pay for their support. Even if eventually they figure out that they only did it because the court forced them to.

Eventually kids figure out who did and did not care about them and most figure out that it had nothing to do with them or the parent who raised them.

 

[Toni]

In my personal opnion, before we talk about who should pay child support, we should first ensure, for every person, comprehensive sexuality education and free-to-user availability to easily accessible long acting reversible contraceptives (LARCs) and a publicly-funded blitz to develop LARCs for men.

Once that is in place, an the number of unplanned pregnancies is diminished by 95%, then we, IMHO, take a look at what is needed for the sake of the children. In most cases, I oppose forced child support. It sends a horrible, hateful message to the children. I would rather society collectively take care of the child’s needs through access to healthcare and food.

That would require people giving a darn about the children. It'll just simplify to "shouldn't have kids you can't afford" argument. They don't care, they just don't want guys to be on the hook for an orgasm.

Unfortunately I think you’re right. I’ve come to the conclusion that our society truly does not give a damn about what us best for children.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If you don't want the responsibility to have already done the work for that, get snipped.

Do you think that women are as capable and responsible?

Or is this just politically correct gender bigotry. Women can't be expected to take responsibility for their own Choices. Men can.
Is that what you're saying? It sure sounds that way to me. Unapologetic gender bigotry.
Tom

What? Are you postulating that men have sex with women and do not consider that a pregnancy —and an actual child might result from their decision to have sex with a woman?

Women should get the final say about whether to carry a pregnancy to term.

And you're still not addressing the issue of why he only gets the choice before sex, she gets it after. Why is an agreement about what the couple will do irrelevant?

 

[Metaphor]

If you don't want the responsibility to have already done the work for that, get snipped.

Do you think that women are as capable and responsible?

Or is this just politically correct gender bigotry. Women can't be expected to take responsibility for their own Choices. Men can.
Is that what you're saying? It sure sounds that way to me. Unapologetic gender bigotry.
Tom

What? Are you postulating that men have sex with women and do not consider that a pregnancy —and an actual child might result from their decision to have sex with a woman?

Women should get the final say about whether to carry a pregnancy to term.

And you're still not addressing the issue of why he only gets the choice before sex, she gets it after. Why is an agreement about what the couple will do irrelevant?

Toni - I'm not quite clear where you stand on this.

Should a pre-sex agreement between a man and a woman, releasing the man from any pregnancy and child-related obligations that would arise from their copulation, be honoured?

Or did you, as I suspect, hastily write something you did not actually mean, and you would not want any sort of 'pre-copulation' agreement to free a biological father from legal obligation related to any child he creates?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If you don't want the responsibility to have already done the work for that, get snipped.

Do you think that women are as capable and responsible?

Or is this just politically correct gender bigotry. Women can't be expected to take responsibility for their own Choices. Men can.
Is that what you're saying? It sure sounds that way to me. Unapologetic gender bigotry.
Tom

What? Are you postulating that men have sex with women and do not consider that a pregnancy —and an actual child might result from their decision to have sex with a woman?

Women should get the final say about whether to carry a pregnancy to term.

And you're still not addressing the issue of why he only gets the choice before sex, she gets it after. Why is an agreement about what the couple will do irrelevant?

Are you seriously suggesting men and women have lawyers present (or at least a notary) right before having sex?

I think you've fallen in love with the ridiculous hypothetical of legal liability waiver agreements being worked on, modified, signed off on and notarized... prior to intercourse. I mean, porn movies are gonna get pretty boring soon.

It becomes some level of mania when one considers the ridiculousness of the agreement. The liability for the male is financial. The liability for the woman is financial, physical, psychological, and with some issues... permanent (and I'm not talking about the child).

You pride yourself for always coming up with hypothetical solutions to real world problems, but this solution isn't a solution. It isn't remotely a solution, and the only way to deal with this honestly, and toss away the idea that magical notarized pieces of paper are going to solve all of man's problems. And let's be honest, this is only about the man. This argument is saying 'fuck the woman' and 'fuck the child' with a nice heaping size of masculine apathy.

 

[TomC]

Are you seriously suggesting men and women have lawyers present (or at least a notary) right before having sex?

I think you've fallen in love with the ridiculous hypothetical of legal liability waiver agreements being worked on, modified, signed off on and notarized... prior to intercourse.

We do that now. Most people don't put that much effort into it, but some people do.
It's called "marriage".

Among the legal ramifications of marriage is that the man will continue to support the kids, even if the marriage fails.

And let's be honest, this is only about the man. This argument is saying 'fuck the woman' and 'fuck the child' with a nice heaping size of masculine apathy.

And marriage is largely about holding men accountable for children that they help make. Men, as a whole, are more apathetic concerning child care. I think it's a result of the difference between male and female reproductive strategies, but it's very real. But marriage as a "socially approved breeding pair", with clear expectations concerning gender roles, is a millennium old concept. Premarital sex used to be heavily censured, largely because men were so inclined.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Are you seriously suggesting men and women have lawyers present (or at least a notary) right before having sex?

I think you've fallen in love with the ridiculous hypothetical of legal liability waiver agreements being worked on, modified, signed off on and notarized... prior to intercourse.

We do that now. Most people don't put that much effort into it, but some people do.
It's called "marriage".

Yeah, most people don't get married to the first person they have sex with. So no, that isn't very equivalent.

 

[TomC]

Yeah, most people don't get married to the first person they have sex with. So no, that isn't very equivalent.

That's a pretty weak strawman.
I said nothing of the kind.
Tom

 

[steve_bank]

In my personal opnion, before we talk about who should pay child support, we should first ensure, for every person, comprehensive sexuality education and free-to-user availability to easily accessible long acting reversible contraceptives (LARCs) and a publicly-funded blitz to develop LARCs for men.

Once that is in place, an the number of unplanned pregnancies is diminished by 95%, then we, IMHO, take a look at what is needed for the sake of the children. In most cases, I oppose forced child support. It sends a horrible, hateful message to the children. I would rather society collectively take care of the child’s needs through access to healthcare and food.

At least back in the 60s even condoms were opposed by the RCC.

Any systematic approach especially advocated by the government would meet stiff opposition from the right. Sex is for parents to teach their children.

I grew up in te 50s-60s and had no sex education whatsoever. Certainly not in the Catholic schools I went to. Nothing from my father. Asn adult I found I was not unique on this, Adults in my father's generation just did not talk about sex.

I learned it in the neighborhood. Guys want sex, girls don't really want it and have to be coerced or seduced. Our collective sexuality culture is unhealthy. Birth control is always a uphill battle.

On a show I waced on the history of birth control in the 19th century there were women who got married without any knwledge of sex and reproduction.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yeah, most people don't get married to the first person they have sex with. So no, that isn't very equivalent.

That's a pretty weak strawman.
I said nothing of the kind.
Tom

Well, you didn't say anything at all then. The ridiculous plan being passed around to solve child support issues for men is to have two people sign off on an agreement that negates legal liability of any child support for the male (odd how this isn't being proposed to limit a woman's liability). I mentioned the idea of having papers drafted and needing lawyers or a notary prior to sex seemed foolish. Your response was, 'people get married and that requires documents'.

The idea is absurd. It is a wicked twist on Meatloaf's Love By The Dashboard Light... with the guy crying out "Stop right there! *haggling the girl to sign some liability waivers*

 

[TomC]

, you didn't say anything at all then.

If you didn't understand anything I said why did you bother replying?

This sort of post, the dismissive strawman, really does get under my skin.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

, you didn't say anything at all then.

If you didn't understand anything I said why did you bother replying?

This sort of post, the dismissive strawman, really does get under my skin.
Tom

I'm glad you are able to snip up post to make it seem like there has been no attempt to provide context... so you can victimhood over an alleged strawman. Really helps add to the discussion when you complain.

 

[Toni]

If you don't want the responsibility to have already done the work for that, get snipped.

Do you think that women are as capable and responsible?

Or is this just politically correct gender bigotry. Women can't be expected to take responsibility for their own Choices. Men can.
Is that what you're saying? It sure sounds that way to me. Unapologetic gender bigotry.
Tom

What? Are you postulating that men have sex with women and do not consider that a pregnancy —and an actual child might result from their decision to have sex with a woman?

Women should get the final say about whether to carry a pregnancy to term.

And you're still not addressing the issue of why he only gets the choice before sex, she gets it after. Why is an agreement about what the couple will do irrelevant?

After sex, she is the one who bears the entire physical burden of pregnancy, if conception takes place. ALL pregnancies carry some risk, some more than others depending on, among other things, the state where the woman resides. She bears the entire physical and emotional risk of any pregnancy, abortion, miscarriage or birth that occurs, no matter when that occurs.

He might be out some money. So will she be.

Are you seriously suggesting men and women have lawyers present (or at least a notary) right before having sex?

I think you've fallen in love with the ridiculous hypothetical of legal liability waiver agreements being worked on, modified, signed off on and notarized... prior to intercourse.

We do that now. Most people don't put that much effort into it, but some people do.
It's called "marriage".

Among the legal ramifications of marriage is that the man will continue to support the kids, even if the marriage fails.

And let's be honest, this is only about the man. This argument is saying 'fuck the woman' and 'fuck the child' with a nice heaping size of masculine apathy.

And marriage is largely about holding men accountable for children that they help make. Men, as a whole, are more apathetic concerning child care. I think it's a result of the difference between male and female reproductive strategies, but it's very real. But marriage as a "socially approved breeding pair", with clear expectations concerning gender roles, is a millennium old concept. Premarital sex used to be heavily censured, largely because men were so inclined.
Tom

Marriage was traditionally about property and property rights, with the woman being included as property. Children, or at least make children were highly desired but girl children could also be used to cement certain alliances.

There was not much disapproval of the man fathering children outside of the marriage although such children did not enjoy the same rights and privileges as those born within the marriage, particularly with regards to inheritance. The mother of children born outside of the marriage had only what the man decided to bestow but none of the status or security of an actual marriage.

My experience and my observation is that men are not actually apathetic about child rearing but are active and equally valued parents. Decent men love and care deeply about their children and their care and well being. Ideally they are equal participants in child rearing. In some cases they are the primary parent. The fact that some men decline to accept and embrace their important roles as parent is one of the primary causes of childhood poverty and diminished well being of the children they engender and society as a whole.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Now lets get down to the legalities and asterisks in the liability waiver. What about an expensive birth clause? A vasectomy clause? Accepted birth control requirements... condom up to code? Or from the guy's perspective... is she on 'the pill' (while still legal)... if not, is she is violation of the contract already?

Will we have sex lawyers with offices next to hourly motel rooms to help horny couples determine if they both understand the limitations of the contract? I mean this is one of the dumbest fucking idea ever!

As if a magical document for a guy that legally enforces a "You Can't Haz Child Supportz" being ready at the hand. Sex Ed would require some legalese supplements.

 

[TomC]

, you didn't say anything at all then.

If you didn't understand anything I said why did you bother replying?

This sort of post, the dismissive strawman, really does get under my skin.
Tom

I'm glad you are able to snip up post to make it seem like there has been no attempt to provide context... so you can victimhood over an alleged strawman. Really helps add to the discussion when you complain.

You snipped my post to start your strawman argument.

I've got no skin in this game, haven't for decades. I do, however, have opinions about the morality of sex and procreation.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

, you didn't say anything at all then.

If you didn't understand anything I said why did you bother replying?

This sort of post, the dismissive strawman, really does get under my skin.
Tom

I'm glad you are able to snip up post to make it seem like there has been no attempt to provide context... so you can victimhood over an alleged strawman. Really helps add to the discussion when you complain.

You snipped my post to start your strawman argument.

I've got no skin in this game, haven't for decades. I do, however, have opinions about the morality of sex and procreation.
Tom

That's nice. I can't help but notice that is seems centered around women lying... and not bringing up protections for women when men lie.

 

[TomC]

, you didn't say anything at all then.

If you didn't understand anything I said why did you bother replying?

This sort of post, the dismissive strawman, really does get under my skin.
Tom

I'm glad you are able to snip up post to make it seem like there has been no attempt to provide context... so you can victimhood over an alleged strawman. Really helps add to the discussion when you complain.

You snipped my post to start your strawman argument.

I've got no skin in this game, haven't for decades. I do, however, have opinions about the morality of sex and procreation.
Tom

That's nice.

How politically correct of you.

Do you consider yourself Woke?
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

, you didn't say anything at all then.

If you didn't understand anything I said why did you bother replying?

This sort of post, the dismissive strawman, really does get under my skin.
Tom

I'm glad you are able to snip up post to make it seem like there has been no attempt to provide context... so you can victimhood over an alleged strawman. Really helps add to the discussion when you complain.

You snipped my post to start your strawman argument.

I've got no skin in this game, haven't for decades. I do, however, have opinions about the morality of sex and procreation.
Tom

That's nice.

How politically correct of you.

Do you consider yourself Woke?
Tom

You gonna derail another thread?