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Whose brain is it anyway?

Lends credence to the analogy of the brain as an ecosystem. What are the implications? I wonder whether neurons having similar genomes communicate in unique ways.
 
Treedbear said:
Lends credence to the analogy of the brain as an ecosystem. What are the implications? I wonder whether neurons having similar genomes communicate in unique ways.
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The implication is we understand the brain less with this news.

And we understood it very little to begin with.
 
Treedbear said:
Lends credence to the analogy of the brain as an ecosystem. What are the implications? I wonder whether neurons having similar genomes communicate in unique ways.
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That seems unlikely; The genetic differences between somatic cells are dwarfed by the epigenetic differences caused by their differentiation - an Astrocyte is still an Astrocyte, even if it has a few neucleotides of difference from its neighbouring Astrocytes, and it is clearly more similar to those neighbours than to the equally (or even more) closely related Neurons with which it shares the brain, or to the myriad other specialized cells in the human body, despite their fairly close genetic relationship. We already know that cells with similar (or even identical) genotypes can be radically different in form and function in different parts of the same multicellular organism.

The vast majority of SNVs are not going to make a jot of difference to the cell in which they arise.

I would be surprised if this finding was limited to the brain - My guess would be that most somatic cells exhibit these high levels of mutation. After all, outside the germ line, there's very little evolutionary pressure for significant numbers of trivial mutations to be suppressed. But they could certainly explain many of the ways in which brains (and other organs) occasionally seem to go wildly wrong.

It's most interesting to me in the way it reinforces the fact that biological systems are frequently more complex than we imagine them to be, and that it's a poor idea to make assumptions.
 
Accepted dogma holds that—although every cell in the body contains its own DNA—the genetic instructions in each cell nucleus are identical
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That's BS. They have been able to distinguish DNA from identical twins for quite some time now. I could be wrong but generally speaking every single cell division is associated with one copy error or so. And cancer exists for a reason.
 
On the contrary, you are the activity of a brain. The brain brings you to life. Puts you to sleep and night and cranks you up in the morning, rise and shine, another day to attend to....
 
Our brain is the most complex organ in our body, not surprised there'd be high variation among it's DNA as there are *a lot* of cells in the brain, many involved in very different processes.
 
bilby said:
Treedbear said:
Lends credence to the analogy of the brain as an ecosystem. What are the implications? I wonder whether neurons having similar genomes communicate in unique ways.
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That seems unlikely; ...

The vast majority of SNVs are not going to make a jot of difference to the cell in which they arise.
...
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I guess you're right, especially considering that neurogenesis is practically nonexistent, and also that there doesn't seem to be a way to pass down the mutations to the next generation of neurons, whether within an individual brain or (for that matter) within an organism's species.

It's most interesting to me in the way it reinforces the fact that biological systems are frequently more complex than we imagine them to be, and that it's a poor idea to make assumptions.
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And in general it's the better adapted ideas which survive.
 
bilby said:
Every neuron in a human brain could have a different genome from all the others (albeit mainly single nucleotide variations, but with many larger differences).

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/scientists-surprised-to-find-no-two-neurons-are-genetically-alike/?linkId=37171391
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Fascinating.

The brain less an organ, more a community of cells whose somewhat anarchic development is put in check by the casing of a skull. The brain less an organ, and more as happenstance where brief equilibrium is reached between the intrinsic dynamic of the cells population's development and the usefulness of this compact community of billions of cells to the unsuspecting organism within its specific environment. Such an unlikely equilibrium.

And that's how we get all those ideas? The weirdness of it all! It sort of joins with other discoveries or ideas: Special Relativity, General Relativity, Quantum Physics, the Big Bang, Dark Matter and Dark Energy, String Theory...

Curiouser and curiouser!
EB
 
Speakpigeon what about the heart? Personally I think that I feel thoughts enter through my heart and exit through somewhere in my brain. From there, they (of course) zap around to invisible satellites, where our brains actually exist. The body is more of a puppet set to think that it is thinking, and being jerked around at the whim of these invisible satellites. Someone actually agreed once, and said the satellites are darkdiscs or something like that. But that sounds too much like insane science fiction so I don't agree with them. A more reasonable explanation would be that the satellites are comprised of tiny, hive-minded mechanical bugs. And they don't have a particular shape. The bugs would be easier to prove than actual thought occurring in the brain would be. They can see traces of things happening in the brain but that is just numbers being transmitted to somewhere outside the brain and outside our visual world. I assume the info zapping around to the satellites isn't erasable, and there is infinite space to store memory - which is generic and abstract once retrieved. Because it is shared. So yeah that is what I think about the situation. Every brain cell represents a bug that has the power of metaphysical wifi, and life is what it is because humans are always in at least one place at a time. Sorry, or you're welcome, whichever applies.
 
another1 said:
Speakpigeon what about the heart? Personally I think that I feel thoughts enter through my heart and exit through somewhere in my brain. From there, they (of course) zap around to invisible satellites, where our brains actually exist. The body is more of a puppet set to think that it is thinking, and being jerked around at the whim of these invisible satellites. Someone actually agreed once, and said the satellites are darkdiscs or something like that. But that sounds too much like insane science fiction so I don't agree with them. A more reasonable explanation would be that the satellites are comprised of tiny, hive-minded mechanical bugs. And they don't have a particular shape. The bugs would be easier to prove than actual thought occurring in the brain would be. They can see traces of things happening in the brain but that is just numbers being transmitted to somewhere outside the brain and outside our visual world. I assume the info zapping around to the satellites isn't erasable, and there is infinite space to store memory - which is generic and abstract once retrieved. Because it is shared. So yeah that is what I think about the situation. Every brain cell represents a bug that has the power of metaphysical wifi, and life is what it is because humans are always in at least one place at a time. Sorry, or you're welcome, whichever applies.
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Leave the heart out of this. It just pumps blood. That's all it does.

The feeling of emotion in your heart is an illusion generated by your brain.
 
Alright heart is a no-go. I feel numbers and codes intering there but hey I'm no heart scientist. The rest is as feasible, right?
 
another1 said:
Speakpigeon what about the heart? Personally I think that I feel thoughts enter through my heart and exit through somewhere in my brain. From there, they (of course) zap around to invisible satellites, where our brains actually exist. The body is more of a puppet set to think that it is thinking, and being jerked around at the whim of these invisible satellites. Someone actually agreed once, and said the satellites are darkdiscs or something like that. But that sounds too much like insane science fiction so I don't agree with them. A more reasonable explanation would be that the satellites are comprised of tiny, hive-minded mechanical bugs. And they don't have a particular shape. The bugs would be easier to prove than actual thought occurring in the brain would be. They can see traces of things happening in the brain but that is just numbers being transmitted to somewhere outside the brain and outside our visual world. I assume the info zapping around to the satellites isn't erasable, and there is infinite space to store memory - which is generic and abstract once retrieved. Because it is shared. So yeah that is what I think about the situation. Every brain cell represents a bug that has the power of metaphysical wifi, and life is what it is because humans are always in at least one place at a time. Sorry, or you're welcome, whichever applies.
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I don't know about you but my body moves at my command.

I "will" my arm to move and it does.

In terms of thoughts the "will" is different.

Thoughts usually arise on their own, they are not "willed".

But the thoughts one accepts as true and are actionable are accepted by the "will" and given a higher place by the "will".
 
You mentioned "I" so what is the distinction and where is this supposed I? I think it is being zapped back and forth outside the body, in a stream of what I guess are satellites. Whatever happens in the physical world is of course dealing will but the source of the "I" that imposes the will is in my opinion in another dimension, or somewhere we can't see right in front of us. I don't have a hypothesis, I just think this because of salvia and reading some things people have said along the way. There is plenty of reading on the external mind and when you think about it there would have to be some outposts for data here and there. I assume that wood may be where our actual brains reside. There is a lot of wood around. Vegetation in general has a tryptaminel signal just like bugs, rocks and everything else. You could assume that any matter is where our real minds are popping around to. If an external mind theory is actually true then on course consciousness would have to zip around somewhere and be harnessed by something. Satellites make perfect sense, so I go with that out of like for the word.
 
another1 said:
You mentioned "I" so what is the distinction and where is this supposed I? I think it is being zapped back and forth outside the body, in a stream of what I guess are satellites. Whatever happens in the physical world is of course dealing will but the source of the "I" that imposes the will is in my opinion in another dimension, or somewhere we can't see right in front of us. I don't have a hypothesis, I just think this because of salvia and reading some things people have said along the way. There is plenty of reading on the external mind and when you think about it there would have to be some outposts for data here and there. I assume that wood may be where our actual brains reside. There is a lot of wood around. Vegetation in general has a tryptaminel signal just like bugs, rocks and everything else. You could assume that any matter is where our real minds are popping around to. If an external mind theory is actually true then on course consciousness would have to zip around somewhere and be harnessed by something. Satellites make perfect sense, so I go with that out of like for the word.
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Asking where is the wrong question.

The question is: What is this "I" that initiates the arm to move and directs the movement to a degree?

When that is answered the where should be clear.
 
I'm coming from somewhere completely out of context. I don't know what the "I" is. I just think that it is on strings just like the arm it is moving. I don't think anything comes from the I, if you're saying that it is located somewhere in the physical brain. And honestly I have no idea what anyone is saying here. Not even a little bit. But in my own idea (the only important thing to me) there is no I. It is just an after effect of things happening in a stream of "satellites", where reality is manufactured. I brainwashed myself with too much reading about external mind when I was younger. I dwelled on it and some things make sense now. Everybody has read something, and they're SURE that whatever they have pieced together from it is right. I'd probably bet against myself if I had to gamble, because things like this are too strange to be right (or wrong) at any given time. Consciousness probably is not limited to some invisible satellites buzzing around but I still think the things are there. They may be there just for backup. Why do you think there are so many invisible satellites stealing our thoughts? Oh my. What kind of creature would do such a thing? I'm surprised more people aren't concerned about this.
 
Interesting read, and it isn't only human brains.

I've maintained for many years now that sameness is a myth, even down to the most elementary bits of physics, a comforting assumption we all make. This article is but another observation that reinforces that conclusion.
 
another1 said:
I'm coming from somewhere completely out of context.
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You mean you are just making things up?

I don't know what the "I" is.
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You don't have to.

You do know that you are experiencing things. There is no doubt of that.

So if you are experiencing things there must be something that is capable of experiencing things. Something with an ability. The ability to experience things.

I just think that it is on strings just like the arm it is moving.
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It can be moved. It can be driven to madness.

It does not have total control of anything.

Just a speck of sometimes slippery control over a few things.
 
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