Whose brain is it anyway?

[untermensche]

The brain is creating consciousness for a reason.

Because consciousness is good at making decisions.

And it gets better with experience.

That makes no sense. What you are implying is that the brain is creating an independent agency in the form of consciousness. Something that can do what the brain cannot, hence the brain creates something autonomous that takes control of decision making. Convoluted, illogical and has no evidential support.

It makes no sense to YOU.

I am implying that consciousness is a decision making "module" of the brain.

You are claiming the brain makes decisions with "modules" designed for that purpose, like complicated thermostats.

I am claiming that consciousness is another such "module" that makes some decisions and acts on them.

 

[DBT]

That makes no sense. What you are implying is that the brain is creating an independent agency in the form of consciousness. Something that can do what the brain cannot, hence the brain creates something autonomous that takes control of decision making. Convoluted, illogical and has no evidential support.

It makes no sense to YOU.

I am implying that consciousness is a decision making "module" of the brain.

Which implies that the brain is generating some sort of an autonomous decision maker within the brain. Which doesn't make sense, period.

Nor is such a proposition supported by evidence. There is no evidence to even suggest it. You base your belief on your subjective experience of agency while ignoring all research evidence on the neural process of cognition and motor action.

You are claiming the brain makes decisions with "modules" designed for that purpose, like complicated thermostats.

That's not what I am claiming. You are constructing your own version of reality, an alternate reality that is not based on anything I have said.

 

[spikepipsqueak]

Speakpigeon what about the heart? Personally I think that I feel thoughts enter through my heart and exit through somewhere in my brain. From there, they (of course) zap around to invisible satellites, where our brains actually exist. The body is more of a puppet set to think that it is thinking, and being jerked around at the whim of these invisible satellites. Someone actually agreed once, and said the satellites are darkdiscs or something like that. But that sounds too much like insane science fiction so I don't agree with them. A more reasonable explanation would be that the satellites are comprised of tiny, hive-minded mechanical bugs. And they don't have a particular shape. The bugs would be easier to prove than actual thought occurring in the brain would be. They can see traces of things happening in the brain but that is just numbers being transmitted to somewhere outside the brain and outside our visual world. I assume the info zapping around to the satellites isn't erasable, and there is infinite space to store memory - which is generic and abstract once retrieved. Because it is shared. So yeah that is what I think about the situation. Every brain cell represents a bug that has the power of metaphysical wifi, and life is what it is because humans are always in at least one place at a time. Sorry, or you're welcome, whichever applies.

Leave the heart out of this. It just pumps blood. That's all it does.

The feeling of emotion in your heart is an illusion generated by your brain.

Actually, that turns out not to be the case. There are many documented cases of heart transplant recipients suddenly displaying traits and preferences which run counter to their previous personalities but seem to derive from their completely anonymous donor.

When I go home (in about 4 days, and IF I remember) I will flip you the name of the doco about the phenomenon.

 

[bilby]

Leave the heart out of this. It just pumps blood. That's all it does.

The feeling of emotion in your heart is an illusion generated by your brain.

Actually, that turns out not to be the case. There are many documented cases of heart transplant recipients suddenly displaying traits and preferences which run counter to their previous personalities but seem to derive from their completely anonymous donor.

When I go home (in about 4 days, and IF I remember) I will flip you the name of the doco about the phenomenon.

A few patients do report this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1299456, but it appears to be (ironically) a psychological response to the well established (but false) belief that the heart is "a centre that houses feelings and forms the personality". In other words, this response is caused by the brain, acting as the centre that houses feelings and forms the personality, telling itself that the heart plays this role.

Supporting the idea that this is a psychological, and not a physiological, phenomenon is the nature of the tissue that is transplanted. Emotion is a joint effort between the nervous system (located in the brain and spinal column) and the endocrine system, which is more widely distributed, in various glands around the body (including in the brain itself). Cardiac tissue is mostly specialized muscle cells; It has never been implicated in any specific endocrine role, nor in any nervous system role, beyond simple feedback mechanisms.

In the absence of a mechanism by which a heart could effect personality; And given the well known psychological effects by which societal expectations are reified by the mind, it is unsurprising that a non-trivial fraction of heart transplant recipients report changes to their personalities; But it is highly likely that the root cause of those changes is a psychological response to the combination of traumatic surgery and ingrained expectations and beliefs.

Similarities between the 'new' personalities and the personalities of the donors are extraordinarily difficult to establish - 'personality' is not something that can readily or reliably be measured - and such research as I have seen relies on assessments of the 'new' personality by friends and relatives of the donor, and as such are likely examples of the Forer Effect.

 

[untermensche]

It makes no sense to YOU.

I am implying that consciousness is a decision making "module" of the brain.

Which implies that the brain is generating some sort of an autonomous decision maker within the brain. Which doesn't make sense, period.

No. It only does not make sense to YOU.

You want me to believe things that are not close to proven. You want converts to your religion.

An autonomous decision maker is what consciousness is. We have the overwhelming evidence of experience to confirm this.

And NO evidence that shows any other method in which decisions are made.

You have presented NO mechanism for decision making.

Once you present one you might have something to say.

You are claiming the brain makes decisions with "modules" designed for that purpose, like complicated thermostats.

That's not what I am claiming. You are constructing your own version of reality, an alternate reality that is not based on anything I have said.

There is no rational coherence to your position, that is true.

There is nothing rational about saying the brain makes all decisions but somehow tricks consciousness into thinking it is making many of them.

It is something no child would buy.

It takes a special kind of education, a special kind of brain washing to accept it.

 

[DBT]

Hilarious. Pure Comedy

 

[untermensche]

Hilarious. Pure Comedy

That's what devoted Christians say when they are told their religion makes no sense.

 

[DBT]

Hilarious. Pure Comedy

That's what devoted Christians say when they are told their religion makes no sense.

You should know all all about beliefs that make no sense, you being an expert practitioner of that brand of faith. That brains generate consciousness that has autonomy from the brain as an independent decision maker is a fine example of that kind of nonsense.

 

[fromderinside]

Car 54 where are you? We set out on multi-genomic brain and the above certainly ain't it.

 

[untermensche]

Car 54 where are you? We set out on multi-genomic brain and the above certainly ain't it.

But what do you say about it?

Is it significant?

 

[untermensche]

That's what devoted Christians say when they are told their religion makes no sense.

You should know all all about beliefs that make no sense, you being an expert practitioner of that brand of faith. That brains generate consciousness that has autonomy from the brain as an independent decision maker is a fine example of that kind of nonsense.

I preach no faiths.

I speak of things clearly experienced.

I do expose faiths however.

Faiths like we understand one thing about human intention from a physiological standpoint.

 

[DBT]

You should know all all about beliefs that make no sense, you being an expert practitioner of that brand of faith. That brains generate consciousness that has autonomy from the brain as an independent decision maker is a fine example of that kind of nonsense.

I preach no faiths.

I speak of things clearly experienced.

I do expose faiths however.

Faiths like we understand one thing about human intention from a physiological standpoint.

You don't deal with facts. Your scrupulously avoid dealing with facts;

Consciousness and Intention
''Where in the brain are our intentions formed and how do we become aware of these intentions? Desmurget et al. (p. 811; see the Perspective by Haggard) investigated the effect of direct cortical stimulation of parietal and premotor regions in patients undergoing brain surgery for tumor removal. Stimulation of the parietal lobe provoked the conscious experience of wanting to move the upper limb, lips, or tongue without any concomitant motor activity. When stimulation intensity was increased, patients believed that they had actually moved or talked, but again no muscle activity was detected. When, however, the premotor region of the frontal lobes was stimulated, real complex multijoint movements were induced. However, patients did not experience these movements as produced by a conscious internal act of will. Indeed, they were not even aware that they had moved. Increasing stimulation intensity increased the amplitude or complexity of the movement but never made it reach consciousness.''

''Parietal and premotor cortex regions are serious contenders for bringing motor intentions and motor responses into awareness. We used electrical stimulation in seven patients undergoing awake brain surgery. Stimulating the right inferior parietal regions triggered a strong intention and desire to move the contralateral hand, arm, or foot, whereas stimulating the left inferior parietal region provoked the intention to move the lips and to talk. When stimulation intensity was increased in parietal areas, participants believed they had really performed these movements, although no electromyographic activity was detected. Stimulation of the premotor region triggered overt mouth and contralateral limb movements. Yet, patients firmly denied that they had moved. Conscious intention and motor awareness thus arise from increased parietal activity before movement execution.''

 

[untermensche]

I preach no faiths.

I speak of things clearly experienced.

I do expose faiths however.

Faiths like we understand one thing about human intention from a physiological standpoint.

You don't deal with facts. Your scrupulously avoid dealing with facts;

Consciousness and Intention
''Where in the brain are our intentions formed and how do we become aware of these intentions? Desmurget et al. (p. 811; see the Perspective by Haggard) investigated the effect of direct cortical stimulation of parietal and premotor regions in patients undergoing brain surgery for tumor removal. Stimulation of the parietal lobe provoked the conscious experience of wanting to move the upper limb, lips, or tongue without any concomitant motor activity. When stimulation intensity was increased, patients believed that they had actually moved or talked, but again no muscle activity was detected. When, however, the premotor region of the frontal lobes was stimulated, real complex multijoint movements were induced. However, patients did not experience these movements as produced by a conscious internal act of will. Indeed, they were not even aware that they had moved. Increasing stimulation intensity increased the amplitude or complexity of the movement but never made it reach consciousness.''

''Parietal and premotor cortex regions are serious contenders for bringing motor intentions and motor responses into awareness. We used electrical stimulation in seven patients undergoing awake brain surgery. Stimulating the right inferior parietal regions triggered a strong intention and desire to move the contralateral hand, arm, or foot, whereas stimulating the left inferior parietal region provoked the intention to move the lips and to talk. When stimulation intensity was increased in parietal areas, participants believed they had really performed these movements, although no electromyographic activity was detected. Stimulation of the premotor region triggered overt mouth and contralateral limb movements. Yet, patients firmly denied that they had moved. Conscious intention and motor awareness thus arise from increased parietal activity before movement execution.''

Basically all you are saying is "The brain does it somehow."

You are just giving me articles of faith.

Nothing that shows the faith has any validity.

Artificially stimulating cells does not tell us how the cells are stimulated under natural conditions. And it is not a natural stimulation. Cells are stimulated by neurotransmitters for the most part, not an electric current.

All you are showing is what happens under unnatural conditions. Sure when crazy things happen in the brain consciousness is aware of it. Even when that crazy thing is artificial stimulations.

That doesn't tell us about normal function and is not an explanation of one aspect of consciousness or intention.

But here's your test.

What specific part of the brain decides to write the things you do? (please provide proof) And how does it make decisions?

"Parietal and premotor cortex regions" is millions of cells. Cells in "communication" with the entire brain.

Positing it as some answer to the question of intention is a joke.

 

[fromderinside]

Car 54 where are you? We set out on multi-genomic brain and the above certainly ain't it.

But what do you say about it?

Is it significant?

Since you don't get polite hints you are derailing a discussion about multigentic heritage of the brain let me be more blunt. You are deraliling this thread which is about

Scientists Surprised to Find No Two Neurons Are Genetically Alike

The genetic makeup of any given brain cell differs from all others. That realization may provide clues to a range of psychiatric diseases​

Now unless one's beliefs about consciousness is a psychiatric disease you are on the wrong thread. Please, any scientific article amplifying your point will do.

 

[Speakpigeon]

Every neuron in a human brain could have a different genome from all the others (albeit mainly single nucleotide variations, but with many larger differences).

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/scientists-surprised-to-find-no-two-neurons-are-genetically-alike/?linkId=37171391

Yeah, old news, it's already in the Bible, it's called Babel.

It's probably God's way of expressing His infinite creativity.
Amen.
EB

 

[untermensche]

But what do you say about it?

Is it significant?

Since you don't get polite hints you are derailing a discussion about multigentic heritage of the brain let me be more blunt. You are deraliling this thread which is about

Scientists Surprised to Find No Two Neurons Are Genetically Alike

The genetic makeup of any given brain cell differs from all others. That realization may provide clues to a range of psychiatric diseases​

Now unless one's beliefs about consciousness is a psychiatric disease you are on the wrong thread. Please, any scientific article amplifying your point will do.

There is no more pathetic form of life than one who cries about some post that is off point, in a dead thread going nowhere.

If you think a post is off point, and are unable to respond to it somehow, how about this?

Ignore it.

 

[DBT]

You don't deal with facts. Your scrupulously avoid dealing with facts;

Consciousness and Intention
''Where in the brain are our intentions formed and how do we become aware of these intentions? Desmurget et al. (p. 811; see the Perspective by Haggard) investigated the effect of direct cortical stimulation of parietal and premotor regions in patients undergoing brain surgery for tumor removal. Stimulation of the parietal lobe provoked the conscious experience of wanting to move the upper limb, lips, or tongue without any concomitant motor activity. When stimulation intensity was increased, patients believed that they had actually moved or talked, but again no muscle activity was detected. When, however, the premotor region of the frontal lobes was stimulated, real complex multijoint movements were induced. However, patients did not experience these movements as produced by a conscious internal act of will. Indeed, they were not even aware that they had moved. Increasing stimulation intensity increased the amplitude or complexity of the movement but never made it reach consciousness.''

''Parietal and premotor cortex regions are serious contenders for bringing motor intentions and motor responses into awareness. We used electrical stimulation in seven patients undergoing awake brain surgery. Stimulating the right inferior parietal regions triggered a strong intention and desire to move the contralateral hand, arm, or foot, whereas stimulating the left inferior parietal region provoked the intention to move the lips and to talk. When stimulation intensity was increased in parietal areas, participants believed they had really performed these movements, although no electromyographic activity was detected. Stimulation of the premotor region triggered overt mouth and contralateral limb movements. Yet, patients firmly denied that they had moved. Conscious intention and motor awareness thus arise from increased parietal activity before movement execution.''

Basically all you are saying is "The brain does it somehow."

You are just giving me articles of faith.

Nothing that shows the faith has any validity.

Artificially stimulating cells does not tell us how the cells are stimulated under natural conditions. And it is not a natural stimulation. Cells are stimulated by neurotransmitters for the most part, not an electric current.

All you are showing is what happens under unnatural conditions. Sure when crazy things happen in the brain consciousness is aware of it. Even when that crazy thing is artificial stimulations.

That doesn't tell us about normal function and is not an explanation of one aspect of consciousness or intention.

But here's your test.

What specific part of the brain decides to write the things you do? (please provide proof) And how does it make decisions?

"Parietal and premotor cortex regions" is millions of cells. Cells in "communication" with the entire brain.

Positing it as some answer to the question of intention is a joke.

It doesn't matter which region or lobe or structure or collection of neurons is active for this function or that function (which can be correlated to some degree using fMRI), but for the purpose of refuting your claim of autonomous consciousness and brain as a receiver, there is evidence to show that the brain is indeed the agency of consciousness and motor actions.

That is precisely what this evidence supports.

Meanwhile you have nothing. Nothing whatsover to support your own claims of autonomy of consciousness or radio brain receiver hand waving and feather ruffling, knickers in a twist, codswollop and waffle.

Cheers.

 

[untermensche]

It doesn't matter which region or lobe or structure or collection of neurons is active for this function or that function (which can be correlated to some degree using fMRI), but for the purpose of refuting your claim of autonomous consciousness and brain as a receiver, there is evidence to show that the brain is indeed the agency of consciousness and motor actions.

That is precisely what this evidence supports.

Meanwhile you have nothing. Nothing whatsover to support your own claims of autonomy of consciousness or radio brain receiver hand waving and feather ruffling, knickers in a twist, codswollop and waffle.

Cheers.

Your claims are nonsense. Only a child or one seriously deluded would buy them.

You have refuted nothing. You have no understand of "intention".

Using artificial electrical stimulation does not tell us about normal function.

It tells us about abnormal function. Function that never occurs naturally.

 

[DBT]

It doesn't matter which region or lobe or structure or collection of neurons is active for this function or that function (which can be correlated to some degree using fMRI), but for the purpose of refuting your claim of autonomous consciousness and brain as a receiver, there is evidence to show that the brain is indeed the agency of consciousness and motor actions.

That is precisely what this evidence supports.

Meanwhile you have nothing. Nothing whatsover to support your own claims of autonomy of consciousness or radio brain receiver hand waving and feather ruffling, knickers in a twist, codswollop and waffle.

Cheers.

Your claims are nonsense. Only a child or one seriously deluded would buy them.

You have refuted nothing. You have no understand of "intention".

Using artificial electrical stimulation does not tell us about normal function.

It tells us about abnormal function. Function that never occurs naturally.

No, no, no and no....your mantras have no substance. The whole point of electrical brain stimulation is to learn about brain function. That you deny this means nothing. In your own words, the Emperor has no clothes...and the Emperor is you.

 

[untermensche]

Your claims are nonsense. Only a child or one seriously deluded would buy them.

You have refuted nothing. You have no understand of "intention".

Using artificial electrical stimulation does not tell us about normal function.

It tells us about abnormal function. Function that never occurs naturally.

No, no, no and no....your mantras have no substance. The whole point of electrical brain stimulation is to learn about brain function. That you deny this means nothing. In your own words, the Emperor has no clothes...and the Emperor is you.

The point of brain stimulation is to learn what areas of the brain may have an association with certain functions.

It does not tell us one thing about how the brain functions.

Brain activity is global. There are no understood lines of demarcation.

The visual experience is associated with many areas all over the brain.

Finding an area of association does not mean it is the locus of control.